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-   -   Poll:Is Breeding a 3 lb and under dog considered cruel? (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/polls/23566-poll-breeding-3-lb-under-dog-considered-cruel.html)

txshopper73 11-28-2005 09:56 AM
Like I said, I wasn't trying to take a cheap shot or take jabs at you. If you took offense to what I said, then I apologize.

I do not believe that the breeder made a typo since there were plenty of questions asked about the size (Kimberly asked at 6:30 a.m. and I asked specifically if the size of the parents were posted correctly also that same morning) and the breeder avoided those questions till the evening time.

I will leave this thread alone since I do not want to argue with anyone today. I've got enough on my mind with Gracie.

PlatinumYorkies 11-28-2005 10:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr
Now, if someone has a fact wrong, I will politely correct it, as I did when PlatinumYorkies said the breed standard says yorkies should be between 4 and 7 lbs when what it actually says is that they should be under 7 lbs. I did it politely and non offensively and I did not call her ignorant as she claims. I am not like that and most of the members here recognize that.
http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sho...t=VACCINATIONS

It wasn't a tinies thread, however I never lie on anyone...

SoCalyorkiLvr 11-28-2005 10:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlatinumYorkies
http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sho...t=VACCINATIONS

It wasn't a tinies thread, however I never lie on anyone...
Nowhere in that thread you linked did I call you ignorant but that thread is another example of a twisting of my words and an inability for some to accept differing opinions without becoming defensive.

I really hate this tit for tat stuff though and wish we could all just be nice. I is the Holiday season after all! Ho Ho Ho! :D

SoCalyorkiLvr 11-28-2005 10:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by txshopper73
Like I said, I wasn't trying to take a cheap shot or take jabs at you. If you took offense to what I said, then I apologize.

I do not believe that the breeder made a typo since there were plenty of questions asked about the size (Kimberly asked at 6:30 a.m. and I asked specifically if the size of the parents were posted correctly also that same morning) and the breeder avoided those questions till the evening time.

I will leave this thread alone since I do not want to argue with anyone today. I've got enough on my mind with Gracie.
I do not either Kimberly and I hope Gracie has an easy delivery. :thumbup:

SoCalyorkiLvr 11-28-2005 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheryl000
So you are saying you would let your 7 lb dog have the puppies of a husky when a vet recommends terminating the pregnancy for her safety because of what some lady on the internet typed? If it were me I would have terminated the pregnancy.
This is where you miss the point.

This is not just "some lady on the internet" and she didn't type anything that I am aware of.

This is a quote from a canine reproductive specialist with more education and experience than most general veterinarians in the specific area of breeding and reproduction of dogs, so if you are asking what I would have done had the mistake happened with one of my dogs...I would have sought the advice of a canine theriogenologist and maybe more than one even before deciding what was best for my dog. Maybe I would have also chosen the option your friend did, but I would have sought more than the advice of a general vet now that i know that these specialists exist.

But, that is just me and do not fault your friend for following the advice of her vet whom she obviously trusted.

I do believe what the theriogenologist says however, that the pup(s) will grow to the size that is allowed in any given dogs womb and that is it. It is a scientific fact and makes sense in nature. I don't look upon this as an opinion, but rather as a scientific fact that is not subject to debate.

PlatinumYorkies 11-28-2005 10:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr
Nowhere in that thread you linked did I call you ignorant but that thread is another example of a twisting of my words and an inability for some to accept differing opinions without becoming defensive.

I really hate this tit for tat stuff though and wish we could all just be nice. I is the Holiday season after all! Ho Ho Ho! :D
For some, ignorance is bliss.

I am not asking for everyone to agree with me, but I can get just a few yorkie lovers on here to read up on this issue then I have accomplished a good thing and there wil be less babies unnecessarily over-vaccinated because of some outdated "schedule" or protocol that is not tailored to the particular dog and his/her well being as it should be. Every dog is different so every vaccination schedule should be different.
__________________
KIM
And all her furbabies!!!

"Every Day is Christmas When You Have a YORKIE!"

chrislynn5 11-28-2005 10:43 AM
Poor Mini!!!
 
This is the result of breeding way to small. This poor baby has gone through many many surgeries and has many more to come. Her bones are all deformed because the mom didn't have enough room in her belly for all the pups. Please read on her.. I am considering adopting her. But if you would like, you can adopt her. She is a doll!!!!!!




http://www.puppymillrescue.com/adoptme14.htm

chrislynn5 11-28-2005 10:45 AM
4 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrislynn5
This is the result of breeding way to small. This poor baby has gone through many many surgeries and has many more to come. Her bones are all deformed because the mom didn't have enough room in her belly for all the pups. Please read on her.. I am considering adopting her. But if you would like, you can adopt her. She is a doll!!!!!!




http://www.puppymillrescue.com/adoptme14.htm


Here are some pictures of mini and some are of her bones!!!

kewtee 11-28-2005 10:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by red98vett
I understand you Kewtee - I just see so many posts that actually encourage breeding tinies and I just think it's sad...
I know you are against breeding tinies...so does everybody else...you don't have to go into a debate to make that clear :)
In fact you are a very "clear" person, I have no doubts to what you stand for or what matters to you. And I think that this is an important issue for you.
Here in Denmark we have a saying: Go for the ball, not the man, no matter how he plays.
Sticking to the topic and not debating others ways of expressing themselves can actually stop a conflict or negative debate before it has begun :)
And that goes for us all! We all do it when something is important to us. We just have to count to 20 and stick to the topic. And once we have stated our opinion, there is no reason to state it again unless someone asks for an explanation.

I feel like I am correcting you (all) and that is not my intention, I just can't express myself in the nuances I would be able to in my own language :)

PlatinumYorkies 11-28-2005 10:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrislynn5
Here are some pictures of mini and some are of her bones!!!
She is such a cute puppy, I am so sorry this happened to her..

kewtee 11-28-2005 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrislynn5
Oh my God, that almost made me cry :(

SoCalyorkiLvr 11-28-2005 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrislynn5
I have seen Mini before and I am so happy that she was rescued. She deserves to be helped. No one would condone the breeding of a malformed female who was already in fragile health. This is just terrible if that is what happened to this poor baby. :eek:

If I can ask some questions to learn more....what puppymill was she from, how much does she weigh, how many litters did she have, how old is she, did she free whelp or have c-sections? Do the vets who are caring for her actually say her malformations in her leg bones are due to too many pregnancies?

Are you her foster mom or have you spoken to her foster mom? I hope you get her...she is so cute and looks just so sweet.

Kewtee! Go for the ball, not the man!! That may just have to become my new signature line, I like it.

cheryl000 11-28-2005 11:18 AM
puppy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr
This is where you miss the point.

This is not just "some lady on the internet" and she didn't type anything that I am aware of.

This is a quote from a canine reproductive specialist with more education and experience than most general veterinarians in the specific area of breeding and reproduction of dogs, so if you are asking what I would have done had the mistake happened with one of my dogs...I would have sought the advice of a canine theriogenologist and maybe more than one even before deciding what was best for my dog. Maybe I would have also chosen the option your friend did, but I would have sought more than the advice of a general vet now that i know that these specialists exist.

But, that is just me and do not fault your friend for following the advice of her vet whom she obviously trusted.

I do believe what the theriogenologist says however, that the pup(s) will grow to the size that is allowed in any given dogs womb and that is it. It is a scientific fact and makes sense in nature. I don't look upon this as an opinion, but rather as a scientific fact that is not subject to debate.
First of all, if the puppy grows as big as it can in the womb isn't it more likely that if the father is bigger than the mother the puppy will end up being born premature or the mother will need a c-section? Second of all, what is the historical evidence that constitues what she says is a fact and not a theory? In order to be considered a scientific fact what she says has to have overwelming evidence and experiments. If it was experimented it would be considered immoral. Has this lady composed an observational study at least of people who have chosen to put their dogs through this? I always ask questions. People can put ANYTHING the internet, but what you chose to believe is up to you.

YorkyKids 11-28-2005 11:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr
I am not offering this bit of internet info for any reason other than information for those who may think it is not scientifically possible for a small dog to be bred to a larger dog and have healthy puppies.

I AM NOT SAYING BY POSTING THIS THAT I THINK IT IS OKAY TO BREED SMALLER FEMALES AT ALL SO PLEASE DO NOT THINK THAT. <snip snip>

Once the female is pregnant, the puppies will grow to the size available to them, so even though it seems counterintuitive, a small female dog can carry pups from a giant breed male dog. Even where there is no size mismatch, says Kustritz, if a female dog has only one pup, it will grow to fill the space, thus becoming larger and more likely to cause dystocia (difficulty whelping) than would pups from a large litter.
You know I HAVE to wonder how many IF ANY this person has whelped......for if she had personnal experience and suffered the tragic loss of the bitch and/or pups......I do believe she would have a totally different outlook.
YES it is possible to breed ANY female mammal which has a uterus.....but it is not true that it should be done. The above statement is FALSE.......a tiny dog can have a uterus ruptured by the growing puppies....I don't think nature follows what is written in books/papers...IT HAS HAPPENED AND WILL CONTINUE TO HAPPEN.....as long as "people" think breeding small to small begets SMALL......this is so untrue.
d

txshopper73 11-28-2005 11:58 AM
Someone I know bred her 4 lb bitch to a 6+ lb stud. She had 2 puppies. The first came out easy. The second one was breeched and got stuck. They pulled for over an hour trying to get him out. I could not imagine doing that to Gracie...but would have sought out the emergency vet. Instead, they yanked and pulled this thing out of her starting around 2 in the morning. Of course the pup was dead but I just don't know how anyone could do that to the momma. So cruel. I no longer recommend her to anyone, sadly to say.


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