Angora Sweater for Christmas?

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by chattiesmom

Nancy, I don't disagree with you that some farms/farmers of angora rabbits use detestable, cruel, inhumane, abusive methods to collect fur. Perhaps I should have kept my comments to myself because I certainly didn't want to make light of your concerns about the atrociousness of the harvesting of some angora rabbit fur. I firmly believe that there is a special place in the deepest darkest depths of HELL for those who abuse animals, children, women, and the elderly.

I had a mental image of Bizzy and Quincy while they shed their heavy winter coats. They can be REAL brats ...

I appreciate comments on both sides and know you and Yorkiemom are great animal lovers. I think I'm the type of person who buries my head about a lot of things because I just can't stand the thought of some things and while I do disagree with much of the philosophy of some of these animal activists groups, I also wonder who will help if they don't? Should we ignore the video or news just because they found it? Anyway, I thought everyones comments were informative, I guess I was still trying to make up my mind is this painful or not, after your comment, so I decided to see the uncensored version of the video. After that, I get a little emotional. So many negative things are written about these groups, I just think we shouldn't completely blind ourselves to the positive work they are doing.

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Well, I can't say what's true or not, sure I wouldn't mind a gentle tug, but I don't think a gentle tug would warrant those screams, or the marks on the rabbits. I just don't know how some of these things can be stopped if no one will report them and no one will believe them.

What that video shows is not how it is done in civilized countries! What goes on in THAT video is horrific, but again, it does NOT represent how Angora is harvested in civilized countries. That place where THAT video was shot, should be the focus of the protest, rather than the entire Angora wool community.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Lilah Charm

I realize that my opinion of PETA may not be popular but I do not support that group. I think that they exploit and distort many situations and often have very innacurate representations of situations. It is extremely unfortunate as much of that behavior is damaging to the ultimate goal of gathering support for humane treatment of animals and ultimately does a great disservice to further development/reinforcement of ethical and humane animal managment practices. I would say that this is especially true in the realm of rabbits as they are an animal in our social environment that may live on either side of the line as a livestock animal intended for consumption or as a beloved household pet and since PETA as an organization will express very clearly that choosing to eat meat is an unacceptable unethical crime they have a very one sided radical and often misinformed position on the subject of livestock-raised-for-consumption discussion.

That said, I do not have any knowledge about the specific operation referenced nor do I believe that all or even most of our livestock being raised for meat is being treated humanely or slaughtered with the care and respect that they deserve. Because the livestock industry is such a disgusting cesspool of poor treatment I have chosen over the years to raise meat on our property for my family's consumption. That way I am able to ensure that they live a good life with good nutrition and care and have one bad day- and we have worked hard to become careful and efficient in the dispatching process for the sake of the animal whose life is taken to feed my children.

We have raised chickens, ducks, geese, turkeys, goats, sheep and pigs and one day I would love to raise a beef steer. As (prior to the development of severe allergies including dire pneumonia inducing respritory illness) my livestock interests have stemmed from a love of textile arts, fiber work and yarn spinning I have also raised angora rabbits, I have also raised angora and pygora goats. There are rabbits who 'pluck' and there are rabbits who do not. Angora goats do not pluck. Pygora goats are classified by three different fleece types: a, b and c and can be blends of more than one type. A needs to be sheared, be May be plucked or sheared and c is pluck. If you have ever had a golden retreiver who didn't get a daily brushing and saw the lengths of fiber easily plucked from that hind leg hair-shedding but you pulled it out because it sat amassed in a sea of golden locks- that is what plucking is like. On a type b pygora goat if you delay supporting the plucking process they will shed but slowly and uncomfortably and their fiber will begin to Matt and pull off in uncomfortable slabs instead of gently plucked across the body like thinning trees from a forest. They are dual coated and so the guard hair stays on the body while the secondary coat (if we were talking Icelandic sheep the right words would be thel and tog to describe the two seperate fiber types) comes of in soft uniform locks. I primarily raised satin angoras which I sheared every twelve weeks and groomed multiple times each week. We also butchered them for meat and I worked very hard to learn hide tanning practices as my goal is to carefully use as much of the animal that feeds my family as possible- I make stock from the bones, use organ meats etc

It is so painfully true that many currently accepted farming practices- primarily in large scale industrialized farms- are appalling cruel and damaging to our animals, our environment and our people. I do not support hanging a rabbit from one leg and ripping off its fur while it screams- that is horrific. Nor do I support debeaking chickens and shoving them in ages that they cannot turn around in where they will never see the sun-the list goes on!

I eat meat and I use animal products on a daily basis. Because of that I feel that I am responsible to be accountable for the choices I make in regard to that decision. I will not turn a blind eye while I buy a plastic wrapped styrofoam plate of chicken breasts and pretend I don't know what I am supporting when I purchase from a factory farm. I will not discredit the wholesome nutrition a rabbit can bring me because it is cute and fuzzy- I think cows are beautiful. Because I care about the treatment of animals I have learned how to raise slaughter and butcher them myself- if I choose to eat meat I think I ought to be able to be real about what that choice is. And while I most definitely do not agree with inhumane handling or treatment of animals, I discredit the wreck less and irresponsible organization called PETA and strongly encourage people making educated decisions about what they consume and wear. Plastic doesn't feed a hungry family and is not renewable, rethink wearing wool and eating lamb meat.

What a wonderful post and I agree with so much you say about PETA, I feel like because they don't want people to eat meat they lose the interest of so many people and the abuse of animals continues. If you ever hear about organizations with your philosophy, let me know.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

While I agree that there are uncivilized things done to animals in other countries, I dare say there are plenty of uncivilized things done to animals here in the good ole USA.

As for this angora discussion...omg I had no idea and I will NOT ever be buying it again.

That's for sure, sometimes I feel helpless and I thought signing a petition might get something going.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

What that video shows is not how it is done in civilized countries! What goes on in THAT video is horrific, but again, it does NOT represent how Angora is harvested in civilized countries. That place where THAT video was shot, should be the focus of the protest, rather than the entire Angora wool community.

I agree, but unfortunately, over 90% of angora comes from China, a country not known for human rights, let alone animal rights.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Thanks so much for posting this Nancy. There are so many practices that are indeed cruel and tortuous toward animals and this information is documented via undeniable footage captured by undercover investigators. Thank God they have the courage and strength to film this horrific stuff bc I could not do it. We often have PETA to thank for showing us what goes on out there. Here are their many other accomplishments: PETA's Milestones

Granted, there are farmers out there who are starting to change their practices and be more humane toward their factory farming animals - but we still have SUCH a long, long, looooong way to go - unfortunately. Until the time comes when we treat all animals humanely, we have to keep our heads out of the sand and face hard truths like we see in the various footage out there. I don't know of any furrier that engages in humane practices, but hopefully someday they'll exist.

Yes, I'm afraid that for many of us, it is too painful and I'm one of those who prefer to keep their head in the sand. I urge everyone to read your link, in fact, it would make a great addition to the library, while I don't agree with PETA on many things, I have to admit they have done a great deal of good.

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I agree, but unfortunately, over 90% of angora comes from China, a country not known for human rights, let alone animal rights.

Where did that statistic of 90% come from?? It was my understanding most of it comes from the British Isles, New Zealand, etc....that China has only a small corner of this market.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

Where did that statistic of 90% come from?? It was my understanding most of it comes from the British Isles, New Zealand, etc....that China has only a small corner of this market.

I'm not sure where that statistic came from, here one site that says it also. Can angora production ever be ethical? | World news | The Guardian I firmly believe if the number isn't 90% it soon will be. Nobody can beat China's prices on anything, and if profit is the bottom line, China is the vendor. According to this particular site, the videos were shot in China.

[Yorkiemom1]

While I do not usually like to get my research done from Google, I think I did find enough information to answer my own question about China's involvement in Angora production. Seems that China got involved around 1976.... the promise of making a lot of money was the driving factor.....and they have quickly become the major producer of this fiber, which they sell all over Europe, Asia, etc.

How utterly unfortunate.....I can not with a clear conscience, do anything to promote the production of anything that savages animals like the Chinese do. From what I gathered with a quick read, the Chinese have flooded the market with the wool, and the price and quality of the fiber has diminished substantially......I am confident when it no longer becomes profitable for them to produce the wool, they will abandon this venture. I will no longer support the production of Angora fiber from rabbits raised in China....this is totally unacceptable to me. Perhaps if the demand drops off enough, the countries that buy all their Angora fiber from China will cease and desist and return to raising their own rabbits for Angora......if they dont, well, I have a couple of sweaters made from Angora from New Zealand, and England.....they will have to do.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

While I do not usually like to get my research done from Google, I think I did find enough information to answer my own question about China's involvement in Angora production. Seems that China got involved around 1976.... the promise of making a lot of money was the driving factor.....and they have quickly become the major producer of this fiber, which they sell all over Europe, Asia, etc.

How utterly unfortunate.....I can not with a clear conscience, do anything to promote the production of anything that savages animals like the Chinese do. From what I gathered with a quick read, the Chinese have flooded the market with the wool, and the price and quality of the fiber has diminished substantially......I am confident when it no longer becomes profitable for them to produce the wool, they will abandon this venture. I will no longer support the production of Angora fiber from rabbits raised in China....this is totally unacceptable to me. Perhaps if the demand drops off enough, the countries that buy all their Angora fiber from China will cease and desist and return to raising their own rabbits for Angora......if they dont, well, I have a couple of sweaters made from Angora from New Zealand, and England.....they will have to do.

Yes, it does sound like the quality has dropped since China got in the market. People on this and the other thread were not all that fond of angora anyway, but I remember it as a really quality product, and Christmas was a perfect time to receive such a gift. This was a good 10 years before China got involved. You said earlier that the quality isn't as good if you damage the fibers by ripping and that's what may be happening. I wonder if it would be better to approach China from that standpoint, you'll get a better product, and you can sell it for money, if you remove the hair a different way? I have such mixed feelings about all this, if no one is using them and breeding them, will they go extinct? I would hate that to happen too.

[Lilah Charm]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

What a wonderful post and I agree with so much you say about PETA, I feel like because they don't want people to eat meat they lose the interest of so many people and the abuse of animals continues. If you ever hear about organizations with your philosophy, let me know.

Nancy, you are a sweetheart and I know you know how hard it was for me To post that- thank you. I am glad that Ann could provide us with a list linking positive reactions from that organization and yes it is difficult to support progress as a whole if we live so far on either black or white of any subject. I know that everyone here is very clearly deeply passionate about animals and their welfare and you are a dear soul to seek an end to the suffering and foul conditions that many animals- especially those used for 'production' purposes are all to often subject to.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Lilah Charm

Nancy, you are a sweetheart and I know you know how hard it was for me To post that- thank you. I am glad that Ann could provide us with a list linking positive reactions from that organization and yes it is difficult to support progress as a whole if we live so far on either black or white of any subject. I know that everyone here is very clearly deeply passionate about animals and their welfare and you are a dear soul to seek an end to the suffering and foul conditions that many animals- especially those used for 'production' purposes are all to often subject to.

I've just read so many posts and I believe that we are all so close to how we would like to see animals treated. I do think that people who lived closer to the earth, farmers, Indians, hunters, etc. had more of a respect for animals than some do today. I've talked to hunters and they have certain standards on how to kill an animal in a humane way so that it doesn't suffer and it sounds like you do too; it's all this industrial farming that has changed things. I think there is a way that we can use animals and also be humane to them, and that's all I'm asking. But as you say, when we are more comfortable seeing only black and white on the subject, progress will be slow. So, if nothing else, I hope this thread allows some to see the "shades of grey." By the way, YOU are a sweetheart!

[Yorkiemom1]

My argument was based on what I know and see.....my Aunt Betty's rabbit farm and how they harvest the fiber....she had told me in our conversation the other night, that these rabbits require soooooo much care....right temperature, right food, delicate careful handling and concern for the rabbits....lots of labor and care and money goes into what they do, and apparently what was done in the more civilized countries where quality of the product outweighs rapid, cheap, production.....things that have no place in the way the Chinese mass produce, as quickly, as cheaply as possible, products.

You really can not imagine how upset this has made me......and part of my dismay is based in the knowledge we can not control the entire world and there are many countries that have no regard for animals at all....in Kuwait, girls ranked below the Saluki....my father had been approached by a Bedouin who offered him 2 camels, 20 goats, an Arabian horse and a Saluki for me.....I was 10 years old at the time. My father used that for the rest of his life! Everytime I presented a challenge as I grew up, he would just shake his head and say, "And to think, I could have gotten 2 camels,....etc....for you".!!! It was a family joke and still is....when I backed my car into a ditch, my brother reminded me of the great fortune they missed out on! Sorry, I went off track! Point is....I have NO idea what in the world can be done about another country's cultural differences, including cruel treatment/disregard for animals. I do have to rethink the petition....I am guilty about hurting Aunt Betty....but I can not stand to even think about those poor rabbits in China.....

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

My argument was based on what I know and see.....my Aunt Betty's rabbit farm and how they harvest the fiber....she had told me in our conversation the other night, that these rabbits require soooooo much care....right temperature, right food, delicate careful handling and concern for the rabbits....lots of labor and care and money goes into what they do, and apparently what was done in the more civilized countries where quality of the product outweighs rapid, cheap, production.....things that have no place in the way the Chinese mass produce, as quickly, as cheaply as possible, products.

You really can not imagine how upset this has made me......and part of my dismay is based in the knowledge we can not control the entire world and there are many countries that have no regard for animals at all....in Kuwait, girls ranked below the Saluki....my father had been approached by a Bedouin who offered him 2 camels, 20 goats, an Arabian horse and a Saluki for me.....I was 10 years old at the time. My father used that for the rest of his life! Everytime I presented a challenge as I grew up, he would just shake his head and say, "And to think, I could have gotten 2 camels,....etc....for you".!!! It was a family joke and still is....when I backed my car into a ditch, my brother reminded me of the great fortune they missed out on! Sorry, I went off track! Point is....I have NO idea what in the world can be done about another country's cultural differences, including cruel treatment/disregard for animals. I do have to rethink the petition....I am guilty about hurting Aunt Betty....but I can not stand to even think about those poor rabbits in China.....

Oh my goodness, what an interesting and funny story. Your Dad sounds wonderful. I'm glad he didn't sell you!

It's can be so overwhelming at times and we can all feel so helpless. I know we don't have a huge impact on the world with our voice of "reason". I can't stand how human beings and woman especially are being treated in many countries. But money talks and sometimes boycotting products makes companies decide to change their methods. There were a few retailers who have stopped using imported angora. As consumers, I'm not sure how we can tell the difference though. Maybe all labeling should include country of origin, if we ban all angora, won't this hurt the small farmer who's doing it the right way?

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Oh my goodness, what an interesting and funny story. Your Dad sounds wonderful. I'm glad he didn't sell you!

It's can be so overwhelming at times and we can all feel so helpless. I know we don't have a huge impact on the world with our voice of "reason". I can't stand how human beings and woman especially are being treated in many countries. But money talks and sometimes boycotting products makes companies decide to change their methods. There were a few retailers who have stopped using imported angora. As consumers, I'm not sure how we can tell the difference though. Maybe all labeling should include country of origin, if we ban all angora, won't this hurt the small farmer who's doing it the right way?

This is the reservation I have with boycotting Angora....I have a real compassion for the farmers that spend the enormous amount of time and care and actual love that these masters have spent hundreds of years crafting this product....not talking about my little aunt, but those people in the British Isles and New Zealand, who have mastered this craft and have a great pride in what they produce....it doesnt seem fair to them, does it. surely they have on the labels in the products that they are made in England, Scotland, New Zealand, wherever....from Angora produced in those countries....that would be a wonderful solution to at least one part of a comples issue.