Angora Sweater for Christmas?

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

This video shows the rabbits screaming. If it comes out easily in pin brushes why not outlaw the plucking? I do not agree with everything on the video, but I do think the plucking should be outlawed. If you look at the raw skin afterwards, doesn't that tell you that there is pain involved? Joey and Ralphie went nuts after "hearing" the video and are still barking. I've got to go calm them.
Youtube-Cruel truth of how angora rabbit's fur is removed

I will not look at that video....but I can tell you there is no bald spots left on Angora rabbits when fur is harvested in countries other than China or third world countries. If the rabbit is pulled bald, where will the next batch of fur come from??? I have no idea where that video is filmed, but I can assure in civilized countries, the rabbits are not savaged like that! That would be like milking a cow then cutting off its udder....it is useless as a dairy cow after one milking! Or picking all the apples, then cutting the tree down! Or pulling all the wool off a sheep until it is raw skin bald! The whole object of the game is to collect the fur every 60-90 days, assuring an ongoing production of fiber...if you pull the hair out until the rabbit is bald, that is the end of the production of fur from that rabbit....not done except in that video, where ever that was filmed. Wish PETA would go to any of the hundreds of legitmate operations in civilized countries across Europe, Australia, Canada, and USA and show how it is done in civilized countries.

If PETA had gone and filmed Vick's dog fighting operation and then said we all treat out dogs like that, it would be just as stupid and outrageous!

[Yorkiemom1]

I just thought of something else....people ACTUALLY do "strip" the hair from some breeds of dogs.....schnauzers, I think? Then there is the long hair that groomers powder and grasp hold of and PULL out of our dogs ears! We are inflicting more pain on these dogs than farmers in civilized countries that humanely run a farming operation to produce Angora fur are inflicting on those shedding rabbits!

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

They are not PLUCKING, PULLING, RIPPING, STRIPPING, JERKING fur! Rabbits MOLT every 60-90 days, and in between the molting, which is like MASSIVE shedding on a long haired cat, they must be groomed at least every 4-6 days....they use a pin brush and brush the rabbits just like we do our long haired cats and dogs....they groom them and collect the fur they shed! Rabbits lick and groom themselves, like cats, and will get hairballs, but they cant vomit up the hairball and it can kill them if left untreated. So grooming is vitally important, and like show dogs, the effort must be put into maintaining and caring for and keeping these rabbits in the best possible condition.....savaging the rabbits to harvest the hair is unnecessary, and is not practiced outside of third world countries.....I guess the same countries that force children as young as 6 years old to work 18-20 hours a day in sweat shops, sewing clothes for stores all over the world, making a dollar a day salary. Harvesting the fur from these rabbits is akin to collecting fur that is loose and being shed! There is no need to forcibly pull it out, it is molted by the rabbit and collected by the farmer! They shave the legs if necessary, but no pulling hair out forcibly!

I think it great that most do it that way, I'm only addressing those that don't, the third world countries that you mention. Again, I have no problem with using animals for food and clothing as long as there isn't undue pain and suffering. I believe that small farmers had great respect for animals and treated them more humanely then some of the large commercial concerns that hire outside help to do the work. I mean, the same is even true with commercial breeders of dogs and small breeders, small breeders are much more likely to treat a dog humanely.

This is like so many things, there is a right and wrong way to do something and if you do it the wrong way, you will cause suffering.

All, I know is my dogs went absolutely nuts when they heard the distress sounds of that rabbit, it tells me the rabbit was experiencing undue suffering.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

I just thought of something else....people ACTUALLY do "strip" the hair from some breeds of dogs.....schnauzers, I think? Then there is the long hair that groomers powder and grasp hold of and PULL out of our dogs ears! We are inflicting more pain on these dogs than farmers in civilized countries that humanely run a farming operation to produce Angora fur are inflicting on those shedding rabbits!

I thought that a slicker brush does that and it didn't cause pain. I don't think Joey's ear's ever did hurt to pluck the hair out, but If I did it wrong and got some of the actual hair on the outside of the ear, it definitely hurt him. Like I said, there's a right and wrong way to do things.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

I will not look at that video....but I can tell you there is no bald spots left on Angora rabbits when fur is harvested in countries other than China or third world countries. If the rabbit is pulled bald, where will the next batch of fur come from??? I have no idea where that video is filmed, but I can assure in civilized countries, the rabbits are not savaged like that! That would be like milking a cow then cutting off its udder....it is useless as a dairy cow after one milking! Or picking all the apples, then cutting the tree down! Or pulling all the wool off a sheep until it is raw skin bald! The whole object of the game is to collect the fur every 60-90 days, assuring an ongoing production of fiber...if you pull the hair out until the rabbit is bald, that is the end of the production of fur from that rabbit....not done except in that video, where ever that was filmed. Wish PETA would go to any of the hundreds of legitmate operations in civilized countries across Europe, Australia, Canada, and USA and show how it is done in civilized countries.

If PETA had gone and filmed Vick's dog fighting operation and then said we all treat out dogs like that, it would be just as stupid and outrageous!

Again, it's only the rabbits who are being plucked that I personally am against, others might be against more things and think we shouldn't farm rabbits, I have no idea, that's not what this thread is about. I said I don't agree with everything in the video. Peta doesn't think we should use rabbits at all, but some of PETA's work is useful in that we can decide for ourselves if a practice is harmful or not. For example, I think people should be allowed to farm pigs, but I don't believe that they should be thrown from the truck even if they are at the slaughter house. We can talk about what we think is right and wrong without banning the whole thing can't we?

[chattiesmom]

I know that many countries/cultures don't view animals as we do and many are horribly abused. Humans that abuse animals, whatever the cause are the scourge of the earth, they should be STOPPED and they will receive their just rewards. I also believe that some animal activists do more harm than good by using information to suit their agenda. It is a good thing to know where your products are coming from and how the raw products are produced/procured.

If the rabbit's molting is anything like my fuzzy mini horses twice a year shedding, then I can see where rabbit owners would "pluck" the hair. My definition of "pluck" would be to gently pull out loose hair. When my miniature horses are shedding their long winter coats I can pull handfulls of hair from their bodies. It is loose hair that is ready to come out. I can brush them all day long, but sometimes it's more expedient to grab a handful and give it a gentle tug and out comes the loose hair and in stays the hair not yet ready to be shed. Bizzy and Quincy especially resent the process, but I can assure you that they aren't hurt in any way and they certainly appreciate getting rid them of all of the itchy loose hair.

I would expect that rabbits would resent a human grooming them and/or pulling out loose hair even if didn't hurt - that is unless they were trained to accept the procedure. Just like sheep being sheared, goats being milked, etc. Even Yorkies can and do object to being groomed until they either are trained to accept grooming or learn to enjoy it.

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by chattiesmom

I know that many countries/cultures don't view animals as we do and many are horribly abused. Humans that abuse animals, whatever the cause are the scourge of the earth, they should be STOPPED and they will receive their just rewards. I also believe that some animal activists do more harm than good by using information to suit their agenda. It is a good thing to know where your products are coming from and how the raw products are produced/procured.

If the rabbit's molting is anything like my fuzzy mini horses twice a year shedding, then I can see where rabbit owners would "pluck" the hair. My definition of "pluck" would be to gently pull out loose hair. When my miniature horses are shedding their long winter coats I can pull handfulls of hair from their bodies. It is loose hair that is ready to come out. I can brush them all day long, but sometimes it's more expedient to grab a handful and give it a gentle tug and out comes the loose hair and in stays the hair not yet ready to be shed. Bizzy and Quincy especially resent the process, but I can assure you that they aren't hurt in any way and they certainly appreciate getting rid them of all of the itchy loose hair.

I would expect that rabbits would resent a human grooming them and/or pulling out loose hair even if didn't hurt - that is unless they were trained to accept the procedure. Just like sheep being sheared, goats being milked, etc. Even Yorkies can and do object to being groomed until they either are trained to accept grooming or learn to enjoy it.

Aunt Betty said some love the grooming and will lay in their laps and enjoy the brushing...others like to move around more, but they dont have to hold down or tie down any of the rabbits, guess you could say they are accustomed to the schedule!....she has been doing this since the 70's I think...she took over HER mom and dads business, and they were doing it when I was in high school.......Aunt Betty had 3 kids, the two boys are policemen, and the girl is the one that will continue the rabbit business, along with her 3 kids!

I cant stand abusing any animals for any reason. (That includes "stripping" coats on dogs, or pulling the hair from inside their ears!) When farm animals are raised to slaughter, I want it done quickly and painlessly. The only thing I am upset about is the fact that people will actually think from that ONE PETA video, that is the only way this is done....that is the exception rather than the rule. I am thankful that all the hundreds of farmers that produce Angora fiber, not only from rabbits but from sheep too, the ones that depend on those animals and the production of the fleece/fur/fiber/wool to provide them a living, have not been affected financially by uproar over that video. That would be like all of us getting smeared by one video of a dog fighting operation....we dont treat our dogs like that and should not be considered in the same catagory....same with Angora farmers! That is why I could not boycott buying Angora....But I could certainly support action against THAT factory in the video!

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by chattiesmom

I know that many countries/cultures don't view animals as we do and many are horribly abused. Humans that abuse animals, whatever the cause are the scourge of the earth, they should be STOPPED and they will receive their just rewards. I also believe that some animal activists do more harm than good by using information to suit their agenda. It is a good thing to know where your products are coming from and how the raw products are produced/procured.

If the rabbit's molting is anything like my fuzzy mini horses twice a year shedding, then I can see where rabbit owners would "pluck" the hair. My definition of "pluck" would be to gently pull out loose hair. When my miniature horses are shedding their long winter coats I can pull handfulls of hair from their bodies. It is loose hair that is ready to come out. I can brush them all day long, but sometimes it's more expedient to grab a handful and give it a gentle tug and out comes the loose hair and in stays the hair not yet ready to be shed. Bizzy and Quincy especially resent the process, but I can assure you that they aren't hurt in any way and they certainly appreciate getting rid them of all of the itchy loose hair.

I would expect that rabbits would resent a human grooming them and/or pulling out loose hair even if didn't hurt - that is unless they were trained to accept the procedure. Just like sheep being sheared, goats being milked, etc. Even Yorkies can and do object to being groomed until they either are trained to accept grooming or learn to enjoy it.

Well, I can't say what's true or not, sure I wouldn't mind a gentle tug, but I don't think a gentle tug would warrant those screams, or the marks on the rabbits. I just don't know how some of these things can be stopped if no one will report them and no one will believe them.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

Aunt Betty said some love the grooming and will lay in their laps and enjoy the brushing...others like to move around more, but they dont have to hold down or tie down any of the rabbits, guess you could say they are accustomed to the schedule!....she has been doing this since the 70's I think...she took over HER mom and dads business, and they were doing it when I was in high school.......Aunt Betty had 3 kids, the two boys are policemen, and the girl is the one that will continue the rabbit business, along with her 3 kids!

I cant stand abusing any animals for any reason. (That includes "stripping" coats on dogs, or pulling the hair from inside their ears!) When farm animals are raised to slaughter, I want it done quickly and painlessly. The only thing I am upset about is the fact that people will actually think from that ONE PETA video, that is the only way this is done....that is the exception rather than the rule. I am thankful that all the hundreds of farmers that produce Angora fiber, not only from rabbits but from sheep too, the ones that depend on those animals and the production of the fleece/fur/fiber/wool to provide them a living, have not been affected financially by uproar over that video. That would be like all of us getting smeared by one video of a dog fighting operation....we dont treat our dogs like that and should not be considered in the same catagory....same with Angora farmers! That is why I could not boycott buying Angora....But I could certainly support action against THAT factory in the video!

We're basically agreeing on most things, but I never said that this one video proves that this is how it's done everywhere, this video and many others show that they are doing it somewhere and the petition even says, "Please know that not ALL farmers hurt animals while producing angora fur, this petition is not against them but against the farmers who produce the fur in a way that animals are being hurt. We are not against ALL angora fur but only the fur that causes stress and pain to the rabbits."

My question for you is who should look further into the matter? Should the matter just be dropped, because MOST farmers are not doing it this way? How do we know how big of a problem it is if nobody is looking into it? I hope you answer these questions, I'm really trying to understand a few things.

[Nancy1999]

The other video I linked was censored, you get an idea, but they black out most of it. This is the uncensored video and much more difficult to watch. To all of you who think this is like grooming a Yorkie or Pony, I urge you to watch. I even feel badly for the guy who has to do this for a living.

YouTube - Uncensored video - Cruel truth of how...

[chattiesmom]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Well, I can't say what's true or not, sure I wouldn't mind a gentle tug, but I don't think a gentle tug would warrant those screams, or the marks on the rabbits. I just don't know how some of these things can be stopped if no one will report them and no one will believe them.

Nancy, I don't disagree with you that some farms/farmers of angora rabbits use detestable, cruel, inhumane, abusive methods to collect fur. Perhaps I should have kept my comments to myself because I certainly didn't want to make light of your concerns about the atrociousness of the harvesting of some angora rabbit fur. I firmly believe that there is a special place in the deepest darkest depths of HELL for those who abuse animals, children, women, and the elderly.

I had a mental image of Bizzy and Quincy while they shed their heavy winter coats. They can be REAL brats ...

[Lilah Charm]

I realize that my opinion of PETA may not be popular but I do not support that group. I think that they exploit and distort many situations and often have very innacurate representations of situations. It is extremely unfortunate as much of that behavior is damaging to the ultimate goal of gathering support for humane treatment of animals and ultimately does a great disservice to further development/reinforcement of ethical and humane animal managment practices. I would say that this is especially true in the realm of rabbits as they are an animal in our social environment that may live on either side of the line as a livestock animal intended for consumption or as a beloved household pet and since PETA as an organization will express very clearly that choosing to eat meat is an unacceptable unethical crime they have a very one sided radical and often misinformed position on the subject of livestock-raised-for-consumption discussion.

That said, I do not have any knowledge about the specific operation referenced nor do I believe that all or even most of our livestock being raised for meat is being treated humanely or slaughtered with the care and respect that they deserve. Because the livestock industry is such a disgusting cesspool of poor treatment I have chosen over the years to raise meat on our property for my family's consumption. That way I am able to ensure that they live a good life with good nutrition and care and have one bad day- and we have worked hard to become careful and efficient in the dispatching process for the sake of the animal whose life is taken to feed my children.

We have raised chickens, ducks, geese, turkeys, goats, sheep and pigs and one day I would love to raise a beef steer. As (prior to the development of severe allergies including dire pneumonia inducing respritory illness) my livestock interests have stemmed from a love of textile arts, fiber work and yarn spinning I have also raised angora rabbits, I have also raised angora and pygora goats. There are rabbits who 'pluck' and there are rabbits who do not. Angora goats do not pluck. Pygora goats are classified by three different fleece types: a, b and c and can be blends of more than one type. A needs to be sheared, be May be plucked or sheared and c is pluck. If you have ever had a golden retreiver who didn't get a daily brushing and saw the lengths of fiber easily plucked from that hind leg hair-shedding but you pulled it out because it sat amassed in a sea of golden locks- that is what plucking is like. On a type b pygora goat if you delay supporting the plucking process they will shed but slowly and uncomfortably and their fiber will begin to Matt and pull off in uncomfortable slabs instead of gently plucked across the body like thinning trees from a forest. They are dual coated and so the guard hair stays on the body while the secondary coat (if we were talking Icelandic sheep the right words would be thel and tog to describe the two seperate fiber types) comes of in soft uniform locks. I primarily raised satin angoras which I sheared every twelve weeks and groomed multiple times each week. We also butchered them for meat and I worked very hard to learn hide tanning practices as my goal is to carefully use as much of the animal that feeds my family as possible- I make stock from the bones, use organ meats etc

It is so painfully true that many currently accepted farming practices- primarily in large scale industrialized farms- are appalling cruel and damaging to our animals, our environment and our people. I do not support hanging a rabbit from one leg and ripping off its fur while it screams- that is horrific. Nor do I support debeaking chickens and shoving them in ages that they cannot turn around in where they will never see the sun-the list goes on!

I eat meat and I use animal products on a daily basis. Because of that I feel that I am responsible to be accountable for the choices I make in regard to that decision. I will not turn a blind eye while I buy a plastic wrapped styrofoam plate of chicken breasts and pretend I don't know what I am supporting when I purchase from a factory farm. I will not discredit the wholesome nutrition a rabbit can bring me because it is cute and fuzzy- I think cows are beautiful. Because I care about the treatment of animals I have learned how to raise slaughter and butcher them myself- if I choose to eat meat I think I ought to be able to be real about what that choice is. And while I most definitely do not agree with inhumane handling or treatment of animals, I discredit the wreck less and irresponsible organization called PETA and strongly encourage people making educated decisions about what they consume and wear. Plastic doesn't feed a hungry family and is not renewable, rethink wearing wool and eating lamb meat.

[Wylie's Mom]

Thanks so much for posting this Nancy. There are so many practices that are indeed cruel and tortuous toward animals and this information is documented via undeniable footage captured by undercover investigators. Thank God they have the courage and strength to film this horrific stuff bc I could not do it. We often have PETA to thank for showing us what goes on out there. Here are their many other accomplishments: PETA's Milestones

Granted, there are farmers out there who are starting to change their practices and be more humane toward their factory farming animals - but we still have SUCH a long, long, looooong way to go - unfortunately. Until the time comes when we treat all animals humanely, we have to keep our heads out of the sand and face hard truths like we see in the various footage out there. I don't know of any furrier that engages in humane practices, but hopefully someday they'll exist.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by chachi

I dont buy fur anything. Everybody can live without fur so this and other inhumaine practices will cease

That is actually a wise practice. You really don't know where this stuff comes from any more.

[ladyjane]

While I agree that there are uncivilized things done to animals in other countries, I dare say there are plenty of uncivilized things done to animals here in the good ole USA.

As for this angora discussion...omg I had no idea and I will NOT ever be buying it again.