Heads up - CKC wants to change ROE

[gemy]

Canadian Kennel Club instituted a pilot project with 7 breeds to ask the National Clubs and breeders to come up with expanded Rules of Eligibility (ROE)
Vote on Rules of Eligibility for Registration of a purebred dog with the Canadian Kenel Club This website explains much better than I can what some implications could be. Staggering actually!


A bit of Canadian background, the CKC is incorporated under the Animal Pedigree Act which in turn is administered by our Dept of Agriculture and the Minister responsible for this. As such the CKC must follow the rules as outlined by the APA. Since 1974 Rules of Eligibility are required for every animal breed covered under this Act. It was decided by CKC and a rep from APA/Dept of agriculture to *expand* the ROE that should be currently in place. A simple rule really, puppies eligible for registration as a purebred must come from parents of purebred ancestry that are registered with the CKC.


Now these new ROEs' that the whole CKC membership are being asked to approve, include a whole lot of things to be eligible for registration - some exclude color or off color markings. For eg if an ROE describes the breed as say *black* with no white markings, what happens if you have a puppy borne (which is pretty common in many breeds) that has a small white patch somewhere? Many times this white patch grows out.


So in the same litter, is it possible that two puppies born with white patches could not be registered as purebred???? Ridiculous.


Color markings or ear set/size does not determine purebred!! They may and often will exclude this puppy as potential breeding stock, but in no way should this preclude their recognition of purebred status!


How this will affect American Breeders? In a number of ways, importation of stud dogs or bitches to Canada must now meet the ROE requirements here. Dogs borne of an American Dog not meeting the ROE, would that litter be disallowed for registration?


Anyhow I and some others are trying to get some answers to these questions.

[Yorkiemom1]

It is ALWAYS something! We seem to be staggering from one disaster right into the next lately.....I have to digest this information and formulate my thoughts......

[gemy]

Please digest because to my simple analytical mind, they the (CKC) seem to want to change the definition of a purebred dog that has sufficed us for 200 years or more.


I was and am expecting a challenge on the DNA front - when Mars Testing gets sufficiently advanced to correctly ascertain a purebred dog from a mutt!
Oh yes this will be coming 10 yrs or less down the road.............

[Nancy1999]

What a shame, I wonder if this is a backlash to all the breeders who have been breeding for more variety?

[gemy]

Nancy I don't know at all what the motive(s) are. But this truly scares me. I have talked with all the runners for election to my district, and to a one, they all have very grave concerns. How and more importantly why did CKC get on this bandwagon? I live in one of the densest and most populous areas of Canada, and not only the current representative, but all three other contenders for the position, evidence severe concerns?? How did this pilot project move forward then?


This seemed to come out of no-where. Now remember we are an organization with 25,000 or so members, many are not breeders. CKC is organized differently to AKC in that AKC does not have individual members per say, but breed clubs as members and of course their High Volumne Breeders who are not members of any Breed club.


For me what is very very important is the apparent changing of the definition of what a purebred dog is. That is very scarey and very dangerous. And I believe that non-breeders truly don't get it! I have no idea why these seven clubs went along with the CKC, maybe they know something we do not, and WHAT WE ALL SHOULD!!!


CKC has not communicated their advanced intentions or thoughts, nor truly explained why this ROE change is actually necessary........


I remain flabbergasted

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by gemy

Nancy I don't know at all what the motive(s) are. But this truly scares me. I have talked with all the runners for election to my district, and to a one, they all have very grave concerns. How and more importantly why did CKC get on this bandwagon? I live in one of the densest and most populous areas of Canada, and not only the current representative, but all three other contenders for the position, evidence severe concerns?? How did this pilot project move forward then?


This seemed to come out of no-where. Now remember we are an organization with 25,000 or so members, many are not breeders. CKC is organized differently to AKC in that AKC does not have individual members per say, but breed clubs as members and of course their High Volumne Breeders who are not members of any Breed club.


For me what is very very important is the apparent changing of the definition of what a purebred dog is. That is very scarey and very dangerous. And I believe that non-breeders truly don't get it! I have no idea why these seven clubs went along with the CKC, maybe they know something we do not, and WHAT WE ALL SHOULD!!!


CKC has not communicated their advanced intentions or thoughts, nor truly explained why this ROE change is actually necessary........


I remain flabbergasted

Yes, I agree, it is a concern. I mean breed clubs are suppose to define standard, and registries are suppose to be fanatical about keeping accurate records. Does this mean that someone could have an unregistered dog that looked like a breed and get it registered? Hope you can get the support you need from some of the breed clubs over here, I just don't understand why they would want to do this, is there a lack of interest in showing and more and more breeders are breeding dogs that do not look anything like standard? It would be great to know why they thing they should do this.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Yes, I agree, it is a concern. I mean breed clubs are suppose to define standard, and registries are suppose to be fanatical about keeping accurate records. Does this mean that someone could have an unregistered dog that looked like a breed and get it registered? Hope you can get the support you need from some of the breed clubs over here, I just don't understand why they would want to do this, is there a lack of interest in showing and more and more breeders are breeding dogs that do not look anything like standard? It would be great to know why they thing they should do this.

No not at all. The linked article actually describes the concerns, no 1: you can have a litter of lets say 8 puppies from 2 CKC registered purebred dogs and lets say 2 of the litter for what-ever reason don't meet the ROE then these 2 dogs are ineligible for registration. Poppycock, off colored, too low too high ear set, eye shape, white markings, have no bearing on whether or not a dog is purebred. It does how-ever impact whether a dog can be shown, and or bred.


For a good 200 years we have worked on the system that when you breed a purebred to a purebred dog (of the same breed) you have x number of purebred puppies that in turn are registered as purebred dogs with the CKC.


No 2 If we agree to this change, then there is a real risk of narrowing the breeding pool, with all the attendant risks thereof.


Then there is the fact that as CKC breeders we can not breed mutts. How do we reconcile this with having 2 puppies of our breeding from 2 purebreds that are not eligible for registration? Are we then in violation of this rule?


As I mentioned before, I expect that with-in the next 10years, purebred status will be DNA'd validated. Once such systems like Mars become accurate enough, and a say a range of plus or minus .005% or so that can confidently ascertain that this dog is indeed say a Yorkshire Terrier, then the breeding landscape will indeed change. And then maybe you disallow this dog purebred dog registration eligibility. But that is not where we are at now.


Phil(pstinard) could probably explain this better than I, but I do know that with so much of a dogs conformation, structure etc is comprised of a whole lot of polygenetic and recessive genes, it would be possible to have a throwback to the foundation types for the breed.


Imagine if you will humans, and we decided to divide up humans, by some breed sic ethnic divisions. It is not enough to have the human genome fully known, but to define what genes make a Chinese a Chinese, or an Indian and Indian.


Any how I await more information

[Mike1975]

For a good 200 years we have worked on the system that when you breed a purebred to a purebred dog (of the same breed) you have x number of purebred puppies that in turn are registered as purebred dogs with the CKC.

No one can measure ethics or motive.
The only way to ensure that breeders do a good job for the breed they are dedicated, someone should evaluate their breeding stock.

Not all dogs have the qualities for breeding.

That is why there is the distinction between PET and SHOW QUALITY.
Its all about genes and quality, not quantity.

PETS, are wonderful companions but have some faults (minor or big ones) and their breeder doesn't want them in their breeding program. So in my opinion its even more tricky to decide where to give a pet, than a show dog.

Joan Gordon wisely said that "The responsibility of protecting the breed and it’s standard now falls into the hands of those breeding now and those who will in the future"

If this pet is accompanied with a pedigree, and the Kennel Club's only requirement is the pedigree (like in my country), then anyone can breed this PET, allowing his genes to influence the breed.

In France, in order for a dog to obtain a pedigree, must pass a "confirmation".
Health, temperament and conformation, according to breed standard.
When you have a litter, all pups obtain a birth certificate and only after they pass "confirmation" they can have a pedigree, when they are at least 10 months of age.


This is a quote from the Kennel Club of France :
Société Centrale Canine - Ce que dit la loi

"CONFIRMATION: THE LEGISLATIVE TEXT
Decree n ° 74-195 of 26 February 1974 relating to the keeping of Herd Book for the canine species.
Note: The parties put in italics in the text are excerpts from the decree.

I. General Principles

Art. 4 - Confirmation is required for breeding of both sexes and can not take place before the age of 10 months. This confirmation can be made ​​from different criteria for each sex and include several qualifications, the highest class on breeding for which it is given abilities.Age and qualification standards will be set for each race in accordance with the federation into the studbook by authorized specialized associations.

- The confirmation is essential for definitive registration Herdbook enabling recipients to reproduce issues recordable under the offspring. The confirmation must be obtained and the final entry in the LOF performed before mating breeding.

- Each specialized Association race concerned is required to determine, in consultation with the Commission Zootechnique , the list of grounds for refusal of confirmation. The list of confirmation refusal established by a specialized Association race is applicable only after approval by the Commission Zootechnique CCS and approval by the Committee .

- The Breed Associations may, as necessary, propose to the Société Centrale Canine changing the minimum age for confirmation in their race , which must match the imposed minimum age for admission to exhibition being specified that this age can not be less than 10 months.
A subject does not conform to standards its breed standard is, in any case, likely to be confirmed. "

[Mike1975]

double post

[gemy]

Mike our system is different and has been this way for 100 yrs or so. You can sell on *Limited Registration* or a Spay and Neuter contract which means the dog is ineligible for breeding and if that dog is bred, then the CKC will not register the puppies.


Breeding decisions are separate to the concept of what is a purebred dog. Sure if the dog has too many faults make a category of ineligible to show or something like that, not that they are not of that particular breed.


Our registries have functioned in the past to be just pure registries; that being to track the pedigrees and only to register dogs from pedigreed parents.

[Mike1975]

Who decides whether the pup gets a "limited registration pedigree" or a Spay and Neuter contract?
The breeder?

Is it possible to have a dropped ear yorkie with a normal pedigree and breed it?

[gemy]

Just got freed up now. The breeder is in charge of submitting the paperwork to the appropriate registry, and they fill in the Limited Registration and or the Spay and Neuter contract.


French system is interesting - but in comparison breeder members of AKC and CKC will not breed a female prior to 18 months old or after 2 heats, which-ever is later.


Germany has an even more rigorous system. But evaluating breeding suitability is again different to a purebred status and a registry which is designed to track and keep very good track of pedigrees.


The easiest way around any system, is quite simply to ignore - don't register your puppies and or your breeding pair. Sell to the pet market - as pets. And in that market there are usually no provisions for restriction on breeding rights to the dogs.


Your flop eared Yorkie would never earn a championship in any conformation ring in North America. And unless he was registered with AKC on a Limited REgistration basis and he was bred, and the owner of the dam tried to register the litter, the original breeder of the Flop eared Yorkie would not really know that he had been bred. It is up to the breeder to follow up on Spay and Neuter provisions and to the best of their ability to insure they happen.


That's all for now Mike have a good day/evening.

[Mike1975]

I understand what you are saying and I agree with you, but since we rely on the ethics and intentions of a breeder, we can never ensure that any regulating system will work as it was intended. That would happen in an ideal world, but unfortunately our world is nothing close to ideal.

So its up to the breeder and his/her ethics, whether a pup gets full or limited registration.
In other words my floppy eared yorkie MAY have a full registration and MAY be bred with another yorkie, "polluting" the gene pool with an unwanted trait, that others before him were striving to perfect.

And here is where the Kennel Club and breeding regulations should step in, to prevent non suitable yorkies from breeding, and not leave it up to the breeders ethics.
Because we ALL know that not all breeders are the same. There are ethical breeders striving for perfection in every aspect and "breeders" who supply the demand with pets and their only motive is profit.

So if we can establish a full functioning regulatory system, we may not be able to prevent unregistered pets from being born, but we will certainly ensure to a degree, that a yorkie with an official pedigree has been bred fulfilling a minimum of conditions, including health and conformation.

[Nancy1999]

I have mixed feelings about this, people want a pedigree pet, but they want it to look different than all the rest, and breeders are supplying that market. One hundred years ago, it was a status symbol to have a pedigree dog, and breeders were striving to get the offspring to look like the breed, I just think the pendulum has swung so far in the other direction that it sounds like somebody thinks this might help get more uniformity into the gene pool, but like Gail says it also is limiting the gene pool, and that could prove disastrous. Too bad so many uneducated people, who have no love for the breed, are breeding.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Mike1975

I understand what you are saying and I agree with you, but since we rely on the ethics and intentions of a breeder, we can never ensure that any regulating system will work as it was intended. That would happen in an ideal world, but unfortunately our world is nothing close to ideal.

So its up to the breeder and his/her ethics, whether a pup gets full or limited registration.
In other words my floppy eared yorkie MAY have a full registration and MAY be bred with another yorkie, "polluting" the gene pool with an unwanted trait, that others before him were striving to perfect.

And here is where the Kennel Club and breeding regulations should step in, to prevent non suitable yorkies from breeding, and not leave it up to the breeders ethics.
Because we ALL know that not all breeders are the same. There are ethical breeders striving for perfection in every aspect and "breeders" who supply the demand with pets and their only motive is profit.

So if we can establish a full functioning regulatory system, we may not be able to prevent unregistered pets from being born, but we will certainly ensure to a degree, that a yorkie with an official pedigree has been bred fulfilling a minimum of conditions, including health and conformation.

For me my big stumbling block is that an official pedigree which is a record of purebred to purebred breeding and lineage has nothing to do with breeding worth or lack thereof.


Maybe two systems - and definitely you need a strong registry system to track pedigrees for a whole hell of a lot of reasons. Maybe all puppies are registered as Limited registration, some permanently on Limited if the breeder so decrees but the others have to earn breeding status


Then you have the breed registry and show arena and health databases. The breeder/owner of qualified dogs starts the show circuit, along the way per breed specific health guidelines, you get a provisional championship until all health tests are in. Also dependent on breed, no final championship until the dog has matured for various reasons, then then must earn a major or two when fully matured.


But I am pessimistic on the public every understanding the difference. They don't right now they think show breeders only breed and have show dogs and they want a pet., nor do they understand the benefit of a purebred dog.