Originally Posted by Corfield (Post 4539387)

Sorry.

Your own joyous observations are evidence of my position not one that dogs need or should stay with a breeder beyond 7/8 weeks.

Very few of the activities being suggested here are activities that only a breeder or the puppies litter mates or mother can do. A 6 week old is mentioned. We are not talking about 6 weeks as we all agree 6 weeks is too young.

The credentials and methods of people claiming phds etc is smoke to blow up peoples asses that are impressed by these things not the validity of the studies / claims. It is a sales pitch and people seem to be using it without a critical eye.

Originally Posted by Corfield (Post 4539408)

So you have no good evidence then and you have given up.

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1 (Post 4539409)

[/B]

I once had an uncle that frowned upon more educated people than he.....he was entrenched in his own delusions he mistook for reality...however, it was simply his own reality, based on his own opinions that he so treasured.
I remain "joyous" with the researched and documented evidence of much more experienced and educated people than I. I have only been involved with the in depth study, involvement with, working and breeding Yorkies since ......lets see......1975.....maybe 1976. I certainly would not presume to have more experience or knowledge in this area than any of the scientists, vets, behavorists, animal psychologists, trainers, and of course, other ethical, respected, responsible breeders that over the years, have experienced first hand, as I have also, the benefits of Yorkie pups remaining with their mothers until 12-14 weeks. I have no idea of YOUR qualifications and expertise, just an little insight to your opinion, which DOES fly in the face of what many well known, well respected entities have published. Your own "joyous", vociferous articulations, may indeed have you personally steadfastly rigid in your conviction that Yorkies suffer no deprivation being separated from maternal tutelage and corrections received up until 14 weeks of age, however I am more apt to follow research and studies documented by much more qualified academe.

Originally Posted by SirTeddykins (Post 4539420)

There is a post from the past re: US vs UK puppy release standards:


http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...lease-age.html


It was inferred that most in the UK are used to seeing YT released at 8 wks but that most would have preferred that their YT was kept longer due to various issues.


My UK breeder (hate calling her that - she's a show judge) praised me for not criticizing her for keeping her puppies until 12 weeks. She had to argue the necessity to a lot of potential buyers which, ultimately, meant that she refused to release them to particular people who rejected her thoughts which were based on experience. She stated that she FELT that it was necessary to keep these dogs longer due to their small size, even at 12 weeks, which is still considerably smaller than most puppies of other breeds.


I think it is confusing when scientific evidence is requested and provided and then rejected on the basis of an opinion which infers PHds are worthless sales tactics. These contradictory requests and opinions suggest combativeness rather than a willingness to discuss.


We, as YT owners, are constantly warned by various YT organizations to not support breeders when they release puppies younger than 12 weeks. Releasing puppies before this time is generally considered to be a red flag of inexperience and greed.

Originally Posted by Corfield (Post 4538087)

We generally let them go at 7.5 to 8 weeks onwards if they are going to experienced dog owner homes.

There is real controversy as to when is the best time but we are swayed by the fact that by 7.5 weeks the puppies are weened and very well socialised with our other dogs, environment and mum. The sooner they get to their homes the sooner they get to socialise with their "family" before the fear imprint period ends around 12-16 weeks.

There are guide and police dog trainers that prefer a puppy at seven weeks to 12 precisely because being chewed to pieces in a litter for an extra few weeks is a lot less productive that the work they can do with a younger puppy that's been well socialised in the litter to seven weeks and learnt more than enough from its litter mates.

Now if you are dealing with an inexperienced owner with young children it is a different kettle of fish.

You have to try and find the right balance and i am not going to bad mouth people that take the view that holding onto puppies to 12 weeks is a bad thing - it isn't.

you have to bear in mind that the first 4 weeks of having a litter are not anything like the fun to be had wit ha litter that's 4-12 weeks (poo aside!) There are selfish motives at play to keeping a litter beyond 8 weeks and of course people breeding for show may want to hang on to [puppies in order to assess which they wish to keep or which they want to try sell for a higher price because of their show potential.

So swings and roundabouts.

If you can't have a sensible discussion with the breeder about the right age to home a puppy you are certainly not talking to a good breeder that knows their stuff.

Lot of emotion in dog breeding and buying. Logic and science don't always win out ...

Originally Posted by Corfield (Post 4539383)

]

Still lacking any scientific study here.

People claiming to be using scientific methods to sell a book isnr good evidence

Breeders dont get the experience of knowing what happens to their puppies in a scientifically controlled way by releasing them at x weeks and collecting bits and pieces of feedback from some of their owners. If they keep the dogs themselves thats not valid evidence either.


Again I reiterate that IF toy breeds were different from large breeds studies and professional opinion offered about dogs would need to make that distinction in their recommendations, in order to be quality advice. They dont on the issue of when to home a puppy. They do on other matters such as when different breeds reach adolescence, breeding age etc. There doesnt seem to be a widely held professional opinion that toy breeds need special treatment when it comes to the age they can leave the breeder.

Originally Posted by Corfield (Post 4539478)

Someones opinion isnt a scientific study no matter what their experience or qualifications. If experts use words like "can, might, feel, may" etc we can;t interpret those as "always, do, " etc. the uncertainty needs to be respected far more than any implication of certainty.

Sceintific studies are peer reviewed before becoming accepted scientific theory.

Someone isnt right becasue they are a breeder of many years and feel a certain way but I agree their experience can't simply be dismissed out of hand.

Some more to mull over.. paras 13,14


Puppy Socialisation and Habituation (Part 1) Why is it Necessary?
David Appleby

Puppy Socialisation and Habituation (Part 1) Why is it Necessary? | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

"What practical applications do we have that bear out the research? Guide Dogs for the Blind, who, until 1956, used to rely on the donation of adult dogs which they took on approval to maintain their training stock. The success rate of these dogs fluctuated between 9 and 11 percent and it was recognised that this could be improved if the association could supervise the rearing of puppies. These were purchased and placed in private homes at between ten and twelve weeks old or even later. Things improved, but the results were not good enough. It was Derek Freeman, who pushed to have puppies placed in private homes at an earlier age to optimise socialisation and habituation during the critical development period. Derek had a strong belief in Scott and Fuller’s work and importance of early socialisation and habituation in the production of dogs that were best able to survive and perform in the world at large.

Derek found that six weeks was the best time to place puppies in private homes; any later critically reduced the time left before the puppies reached twelve weeks; but if puppies were removed from their dam and litter mates before six weeks they missed the opportunity to be properly socialised with their own kind, which resulted in inept interactions with other dogs in later life. The training success rate soared because of this policy, which was carried out in conjunction with the management of the gene pool via the breeding scheme Derek also pioneered. Annual success rates in excess of 75 percent became common. You might think that this is a special scheme for dogs with a special function. In fact, what the scheme provides is adult dogs with sound temperaments. These dogs coincidentally make the best material for guide dog training which does not start until they have been assessed at ten months or older. As a result of the breeding scheme, Derek Freeman also proved, if proof was needed, that you cannot dismiss the importance of genetic predisposition, i.e. the basic material required for good temperament can be produced through good breeding. Conversely, a lack of habituation/socialisation can ruin the chance of an individual developing a sound temperament, however good the genealogy."

and

"Having said that, it is unfortunate that some breeders believe that most families are unsuitable to look after a puppy when it is six weeks old, although it is difficult to see what suddenly makes a family suitable when the puppy is eight, ten or twelve weeks old. All too often breeders, unaware of the harm they are doing, retain puppies well into and sometimes past the critical socialisation and habituation period so that they, the breeders, have time to choose which puppy or puppies they wish to keep for showing before launching the rest on the unsuspecting public. There is in essence nothing wrong in the breeder retaining a puppy for as long as they want, as long as they systematically ensure that each puppy is properly socialised and habituated as an individual. Each puppy needs to learn to cope with the environment without the support of its litter brothers and sisters and other dogs. Although this is possible, in practice, it is very time-consuming."

Originally Posted by Corfield (Post 4539489)

teddy - re hypoglcemea .

How to prevent Hypoglycemia in tiny puppies.

This is hardly a reason to POTENTIALLY undermine a dogs lifetime behaviour.

A simple answer is also - people shouldnt breed "Tiny or teacup yorkies" Breed for health.

Also

"Ring Ring" Oh is that the telephone ?

"Hello I just bought a puppy from you. it is isnt eating and is shivering etc "

"give it some corn syrup or a bit of sugar" etc..

Not hard is it ?

Originally Posted by Corfield (Post 4539489)

teddy - re hypoglcemea .

How to prevent Hypoglycemia in tiny puppies.

This is hardly a reason to POTENTIALLY undermine a dogs lifetime behaviour.

A simple answer is also - people shouldnt breed "Tiny or teacup yorkies" Breed for health.

Also

"Ring Ring" Oh is that the telephone ?

"Hello I just bought a puppy from you. it is isnt eating and is shivering etc "

"give it some corn syrup or a bit of sugar" etc..

Not hard is it ?

Originally Posted by kreuer (Post 4539498)

Would love to know how big your puppies are at 8 weeks old?


Would also like to say, this is why you can not always rely on "scientific evidence." Most people can find data to support their side of the issue. For example, when my son was a baby and I was desperate for him to sleep through the night, my pediatrician said "let him cry out." After research I found a lot of data for crying it out and a lot against crying it out. All from well respected pediatricians. So instead, I listen to who I respect and know to be well respected in the community and what I FEEL is best for me. I have a lot of respect and know many reputable breeders here on YT and will follow their advice and knowledge from their many years of experience. I also know a well respected, reputable Shih Tzu breeder who also feels 12 weeks is best for her pups. For those reasons, not the "scientific evidence" being thrown around, I feel 12 weeks is a better age for puppies to go to their new homes.

Originally Posted by SirTeddykins (Post 4539508)

Well, I don't know, is it hard? Do you advise at the point of sale that you are releasing your puppies at a potentially life-threatening stage? And, because of that, please call you if they notice x, y, z for advice? Am I to just assume that with my crystal ball?


Additionally:


Your site says that your puppies are KC registered but the dam appears to have floppy ears which isn't KC standard according to the Yorkshire Terrier Club of England:


| The Yorkshire Terrier Club - Breed Standard |


Additionally, you are not listed on the KC site as an assured breeder or any other type of approved breeder. Is it difficult to put yourself on the site if you're legitimate KC? I dunno....

Yorkshire Terrier puppies for sale in All Areas

Finally, the sire that you are using is being auctioned off at £250 a time on Pets4homes.co.uk which is a site renown for its puppy farm breeders and other unethical selling practices:


Toy Yorkshire Terrier At Stud KC Reg For Stud | Pickering, North Yorkshire | Pets4Homes


So, you say that you are in the position to advise re: puppy release time and hypoglycemia but the lack of adherence to KC standards, despite KC registration assurance, and the use of a stud from an unethical site makes me wonder...


I do not point these things out to be confrontational but to sort of let you know how seriously we investigate breeder claims when they contravene standard advice. You are entitled, by all means, to critically challenge any evidence. In fact, it would be unwise to NOT challenge standards. However, it is unlikely that your challenges will gain any ground if the basics in other areas are not met.


On the grounds of your advice re: hypoglycemia, early release and the rest of the info above, I would conclude that you are (at best) an inexperienced breeder.


Hey, we all have to start somewhere. BUT, if I think it, others think it and at least I have been honest so that you can make an informed decision on whether or not you want to continue with the current perception.

Originally Posted by Corfield (Post 4539482)

page 42 bottom of page left para

"by 7 weeks of age puppies are least inhibited and therefore best able to adapt to new experiences" "although continued socialization with other dogs is important, the focus of socialization should now be shifted toward as many new people and situations as possible"


Nothing here suggesting it is ONLY breeders that can do this.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...tudies&f=false

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1 (Post 4539385)

I loved your Enrichment Video Gail! I managed to find this ONE article in my one computer....my business computer is in hospice, and will be needing replacement very soon....I can not get to any of my business articles, breeding articles, etc.....I have an entire file folder validating and backing up the theory justifying via evidenced based trial outcomes, the benefits of Yorkies staying with mother and siblings until at least 12 weeks of age.....hopefully one of my experts can retrieve those files from that dying business computer....you know what a stickler I am for evidenced based outcomes and scientifically tested trials....!! So I offer the article below, presented by several well known behavorists,vets, breeders, and AKC judges with many, many years experience....


"Although a puppy is born with essentially all the brain cells he will ever have, his brain grows in two ways: It gets bigger, and it changes shape. How much the brain grows and the way it changes shape depend on the kind of environmental stimulation the pup receives during the first 16 weeks of life, writes Raymond Coppinger, professor of biology at Hampshire College in Amherst, Massachusetts, in Dogs: A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior & Evolution (Scribner, 2001; coauthored with Lorna Coppinger).

Growth comes in the connections between the cells. Dendrites are brain nerve-cell structures that form contacts with other nerve cells. The more connections the dendrites make, the more the brain grows. By 6 weeks of age, a puppy's brain mass is approximately 70 percent developed, and by 16 weeks of age, almost all the connections have been made. Once brain growth stops, it's difficult to change the wiring, Coppinger writes.

The critical period for influencing puppies is between 3 weeks and 14 weeks of age, says Lore Haug, D.V.M., a board-certified behaviorist with South Texas Veterinary Behavior Services in Sugar Land, Texas.

Before 3 weeks of age, a puppy's activities consist primarily of eating and sleeping. This is the neonatal, or newborn, period. It might seem as if not much is going on in the brain during this period, but early neurological stimulating exercises, such as holding them, turning them over and exposing them to minor temperature changes, can benefit puppies.

"There's a window in the life of every puppy that opens on the third day of life and closes on the 16th day," says Carmen L. Battaglia, Ph.D., who has bred and finished (earned a championship on) a number of dogs, and who is an American Kennel Club judge of more than 40 breeds. "If you stimulate their neurological system during that open window, for the rest of that puppy's life, he will have a better heartbeat, a better heart rate, more resistance to disease, greater tolerance of stress and a more active adrenal system, so his adrenaline will run faster when he needs it." (This is the "Super Dog Neurological Stimulation Program that is used on all Rosehill Yorkie puppies.)

The transitional period begins at 2 weeks of age, when the puppy's eyes open. During this time, puppies show significant improvement in their ability to learn and can even be trained to perform a response for a food reward as early as 15 days of age, writes veterinary behaviorist Ian Dunbar in Dog Behavior: Why Dogs Do What They Do (Ingram Book Co., 1989).

The transitional period ends when the ears open and the canine teeth emerge, toward the end of the third week. At this point, puppies are suddenly active and busy. They learn that they can sit, and they start trying to walk, although they're pretty wobbly and still need lots of practice. Puppies during this stage begin playful biting and pawing behavior.

Now the puppies have entered what's known as the socialization period, the critical time for brain development.

"Three weeks of age is about the time that they're a little bit mobile, their ears are open, their eyes are open, so they have the ability to taste, smell, obviously touch and hear, so all their senses are functioning," Haug says. "They can start being exposed to different sounds, visual stimuli, tactile stimuli and things as part of their socialization process." Because the socialization period begins at such an early age, a good breeder is essential for success.

Going Home
The age at which a puppy goes to his new home can also affect his development. Traditionally, puppies have gone to new homes at 6 to 8 weeks of age, but more and more breeders— especially breeders of toy breeds, such as Yorkshire Terriers —prefer to keep their pups until they're at least 10 to 12 weeks old. The additional time with mother and littermates helps them develop more fully, they believe.

Yorkies mature slowly, and reputable breeders won't let them go before they're 12 to 14 weeks old, saysYorkshire Terrier breeder Doreen Hubbard of Marysville, Washington. There's a physical bonus as well, she says. Yorkies go through a trouble-filled teething stage during which they lack appetite and often have diarrhea. "I hate seeing somebody buy a dog who is going to worry them the first month they have him, wondering why he isn't eating, why he's got diarrhea," she says, advising to let the breeder take care of that.

Haug agrees that there are psychological and behavioral lessons a puppy can learn through a longer stay with his mother and littermates.

Those behaviors include bite inhibition— learning how not to inflict injury with the teeth — as well as other perceptual, motor and social skills. A 6-week-old puppy who's weaned and rehomed at that age misses those lessons, but whether a longer stay at the breeder's home is beneficial depends a lot on the quality of the breeder.

"We've made observations that puppies who are weaned and sent away early often do have more behavior issues, more difficulty adapting to new homes than puppies who are sent out a little bit later," Haug says. "

Of course, this is where the term "reputable breeder" comes into play....these are lessons the momma teaches her pups, and has absolutely NOTHING to do with the experience or enthusiasm of any new owner. I love to watch my mommas "teach" the pups.....it is an amazing thing to observe. "Kreuer" posted above that the only person that benefits from letting a puppy leave early, is the breeder.....how true!! It is a WHOLE lot cheaper and you dont have all the pooping, peeing, crying, weaning issues they develop as they cut more teeth....profit margin is considerably better too with no or fewer vaccinations, well baby checks, etc. I just think I want my babies to be the absolute best they can be, before they leave me to face the world and all it has to offer. I want every single second momma can spend with her pup, teaching, prodding, loving, correcting, molding, and perfecting her baby. I just think that is MY responsibility to assure this critical time is established and guaranteed with babies and mommas.

Originally Posted by Corfield (Post 4539532)

Instead of the Ad Hominems, arguments from authority and Red Herrings where is your evidence on what is a simple topic.

ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fallacy: Red Herring

Argument from authority - RationalWiki

Surely you can do better than a "inexperienced breeder" you say is contravening "standard" advice.

You are not remotely being "honest".

Originally Posted by Corfield (Post 4539478)

Someones opinion isnt a scientific study no matter what their experience or qualifications. If experts use words like "can, might, feel, may" etc we can;t interpret those as "always, do, " etc. the uncertainty needs to be respected far more than any implication of certainty.

Sceintific studies are peer reviewed before becoming accepted scientific theory.

Someone isnt right becasue they are a breeder of many years and feel a certain way but I agree their experience can't simply be dismissed out of hand.

Some more to mull over.. paras 13,14


Puppy Socialisation and Habituation (Part 1) Why is it Necessary?
David Appleby

Puppy Socialisation and Habituation (Part 1) Why is it Necessary? | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

"What practical applications do we have that bear out the research? Guide Dogs for the Blind, who, until 1956, used to rely on the donation of adult dogs which they took on approval to maintain their training stock. The success rate of these dogs fluctuated between 9 and 11 percent and it was recognised that this could be improved if the association could supervise the rearing of puppies. These were purchased and placed in private homes at between ten and twelve weeks old or even later. Things improved, but the results were not good enough. It was Derek Freeman, who pushed to have puppies placed in private homes at an earlier age to optimise socialisation and habituation during the critical development period. Derek had a strong belief in Scott and Fuller’s work and importance of early socialisation and habituation in the production of dogs that were best able to survive and perform in the world at large.

Derek found that six weeks was the best time to place puppies in private homes; any later critically reduced the time left before the puppies reached twelve weeks; but if puppies were removed from their dam and litter mates before six weeks they missed the opportunity to be properly socialised with their own kind, which resulted in inept interactions with other dogs in later life. The training success rate soared because of this policy, which was carried out in conjunction with the management of the gene pool via the breeding scheme Derek also pioneered. Annual success rates in excess of 75 percent became common. You might think that this is a special scheme for dogs with a special function. In fact, what the scheme provides is adult dogs with sound temperaments. These dogs coincidentally make the best material for guide dog training which does not start until they have been assessed at ten months or older. As a result of the breeding scheme, Derek Freeman also proved, if proof was needed, that you cannot dismiss the importance of genetic predisposition, i.e. the basic material required for good temperament can be produced through good breeding. Conversely, a lack of habituation/socialisation can ruin the chance of an individual developing a sound temperament, however good the genealogy."

and

"Having said that, it is unfortunate that some breeders believe that most families are unsuitable to look after a puppy when it is six weeks old, although it is difficult to see what suddenly makes a family suitable when the puppy is eight, ten or twelve weeks old. All too often breeders, unaware of the harm they are doing, retain puppies well into and sometimes past the critical socialisation and habituation period so that they, the breeders, have time to choose which puppy or puppies they wish to keep for showing before launching the rest on the unsuspecting public. There is in essence nothing wrong in the breeder retaining a puppy for as long as they want, as long as they systematically ensure that each puppy is properly socialised and habituated as an individual. Each puppy needs to learn to cope with the environment without the support of its litter brothers and sisters and other dogs. Although this is possible, in practice, it is very time-consuming."

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly (Post 4539569)

Thank you for that long, interesting summary. The information you've provided seems to summarize information from studies not available for inspection or rental/purchase. Would you have access to those actual original abstracts or scientific studies quoted in the piece you reference? That's what I was hoping to see - links to the actual scientific research studies themselves or at least their abstracts about the trials.

I wondered where the basic separation-age limits came from, hoping that weaned age wasn't the only criteria for finding pups able to go to a new home. There is always disagreement on this subject but I would like to know which age better prepares a puppy physically and mentally to deal with his new world and have that based on actual studies we can read, ruminate over, discuss.

The webpage article you provided has conclusions apparently arrived at by the writer of the article from only referenced studies I didn't see links to, weighted largely contrary to what I've found by what are considered the most reputable breeders on Yorkietalk(the world's largest online Yorkie forum and no mean assembly of knowledgeable puppy experience) as well as what I've been able to find online. Poking about on my own, doing my limited research, I've found some online abstracts of studies(fully available for a fee) and a long preview of a book - several pages - (for purchase), based on data from purported scientific studies such as you have copied above, as to the effect on the puppies' health, ability to bond with humans, learn tasks and develop and adapt to his life circumstances better at a later separation age from mom than 7 - 8 weeks. The sources I've found seem to argue an opposing(surprise, surprise!) point to early-age separation of puppies from the dam, if you or anyone is really interested and can help me work through them. Anyone?

Originally Posted by gemy (Post 4539548)

Just chiming in to say I am still looking. I read the paper you posted but not all of the referenced research. Thank you for that I found it interesting.


That being for a later release date for toy breeds studies research.

Originally Posted by gemy (Post 4539581)

Jeanie Phil is really generous with his help. PM him he can get for free anything behind a pay firewall. He can send you a private email and pdf file of the research -d but as I understand it - we can't publish the whole paper etc here - he can explain better the copyright laws.

Originally Posted by Corfield (Post 4539634)

The claims by some that toy breeds are not included/relevant in this research amount to special pleading.

Special pleading - RationalWiki

The assertion that 8 weeks is too young is for those making the claim to provide evidence to support.

It is nowhere to be seen so far nevermind behind a pay wall.

You'd think it would be to hand given the arrogance it is offered up as fact.

Originally Posted by Corfield (Post 4539634)

The claims by some that toy breeds are not included/relevant in this research amount to special pleading.

Special pleading - RationalWiki

The assertion that 8 weeks is too young is for those making the claim to provide evidence to support.

It is nowhere to be seen so far nevermind behind a pay wall.

You'd think it would be to hand given the arrogance it is offered up as fact.

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly (Post 4539638)

I remember Phil has access! Still, I wouldn't break a copyright of a published research study. I was going to post links to the abstracts and book preview for those who were interested in looking into the subject of how the furry little research subjects fared when separated. I can handle all but pain studies on canines and never feel the researchers or clinicians fully plumb those depths and assume far too much in any study I've seen. Still, all actual research articles methods, findings, results and discussion I've found online or referenced in the online book can be examined by any interested parties to the degree they would like and relevant excerpts with proper attribution copied here for discussion.

I just didn't know if anyone was that interested in looking into any scientific abstracts or actually reading the full study and the book preview/ebook, which has complete references listed, on the subject of when it's best to separate pups from mom and how those conclusions were made.

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly (Post 4539641)

But I thought you were interested in actual scientific data and studies - real research, not someone's summary of it, which is all that I've seen so far that 7-8 weeks age of puppies is a good age to remove them from mom. Published, copyrighted research material is usually behind firewalls for purchase or published partly/wholly in a usually costly, subscribed, scientific magazine with permission from the author. Either way it's rarely free.

Just let me know if you'd like the links to the abstracts(give you a full overview of the study, summary) of the findings or the full articles and online ebook preview or ebook that is much like your webpage summary, with full references.

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly (Post 4539661)

Here goes - you can link on the study's authors' names to get any contact information, associations, citations, etc.

The effect of early separation from the mother on pups in bonding to humans and pup health. - Abstract - Europe PubMed Central

Observational learning of an acquired maternal behaviour pattern by working dog pups: an alternative training method?

https://books.google.com/books?hl=en...page&q&f=false ebook preview Page 134 for discussion as older pups settle, quieten faster than younger pups

See what you all think and let's discuss these findings.