I'd gotten the wrong impression I guess from the way you kept almost bullying Lovetodream88 for "scientific" sources for her statements, I thought maybe you had research data to back your own up. Thought maybe you were a stickler for actual research data - otherwise, information posted is merely someone's impressions taken from a study, without knowing if they read the entire work, understood the premise and conclusions, assessed the facts properly and passed all pertinent data on in their article written to make the point they want. And who knows what was left out in the passing? Sometimes things we might want to know!

I'm no breeder but am interested in tiny, toy dogs who sometimes don't weigh more than 1 1/2 - 2 lbs. when they leave home and go off to the great unknown, being old enough to have the very best chance at good health and success in life the breeder can manage - or why bother breeding? The proffered research seems to indicate a 12 week old pup fares better in mortality, health, learning ability and ability to settle himself and quieten than one separated earlier - all things that may literally save a dog's life when he's living with a new owner who may not be that cautious or patient with a tiny, yelping puppy who can't seem to learn fast enough.

What do you all think?

Please note that your summarized, copied article and some of the summarized studies the author referenced were from the 1960's and 1970's but the unknown author still used what he said were data from them which is apparently acceptable with you in his article. You haven't offered which of his references were peer-reviewed nor have you presented peer-reviewed studies showing 7-8 weeks is better for the pups than 12 weeks for separation from mom, though I'd like to read them.

Six weeks was the earliest separation studied in two studies - three weeks in the e-book study summary but you've missed the point of the studies altogether - that's why seeing the actual studies are so important! They all concluded that keeping a pup with the mother to age 12 weeks increased its chances at a more healthy, successful life away from mom. The longer the pup stayed with her, the better its outcome in several areas of study.

Please go ahead, present your peer-reviewed, scientific studies, showing 7-8 week old separation from mom is better for puppies for our review and discussion. We're open-minded. We all want what's truly best for the pups.

Sorry, had to get some work done. Here is the link to the Elliot & Scott vocalization study referenced on Pg. 134 in the ebook I posted a link to above. Just wanted to post the link to anyone wanting to read the actual study that purports to demonstrate that older puppies react with less emotional distress and vocalization than younger puppies in the study. Vocalizing and yelping is one thing that gets young puppies in trouble with some owners and older dogs seem to be able to deal with the distress of separation without the noise.

An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie Click on the link - it still works even though says "error"

Have to be a member to get citations, if that matters, though perhaps not that many in the BYB or large kennel breeding business are apt to want to cite a study that tends to argue that keeping pups with mom longer may be better for them - at least until they are old enough to handle the stressors in their new life appreciably better than a younger puppy.

Thanks Jeanie for the article!! Great information!

Jeanie thanks I am still reading the ebook article....

I just wanted to say that I brought my 8 week old yorkie baby home this past saturday. She is the smartest little girl ever! Since Saturday, I have taught her to sit and play with her ball. She has not even cried at night once since coming home. She has an awesome appetite and drinks LOTS of water. when I put her in her crate and she wimpers, I am working on the "quiet" command. She is even picking that up. She wakes me in the middle of the night to go potty on her pad... she is a VERY healthy and out going puppy. I feel as though, as long as you are home all day and can devote the time to your pup, then 8 weeks is fine to bring them home. My breeder is the best I know and she is 10000% reputable. She is in this puppies life while at her home and even now at her forever home. I would never buy from any other breeder just because she let's her babies go at 8 weeks. My Toodles is doing awesome and has a health check from the vet that clarifies that!! I will listen to my vet before any article or person. The vet to my pet is like my doctor to me... they know best.. just saying☺

The vet can not know the standard or best things for each breed so they just go with the standard of 8 weeks. In the US reputable breeders follow the Yorkshire Terrier Club of America which says 12 weeks. Generally if you find one thing that a breeder has skipped like not keeping the pups until 12 weeks you will find they have skipped other things. What health testing did your breeder do? How far back did she know the lines? I have a feeling you are very new to this breed. I understand going to a non reputable breeder when your new and hadn't done the research and didn't know any better so don't take it wrong. Reputable breeders are hard to find. Most of us joined here getting our pups from bad breeders and learned a lot when joining here. I think maybe you should read the whole thread and the articles and check out ytca.org. My pup came from a puppy mill.

Unless you are a momma dog, you just have NO idea what you need to be doing at any given week to best enhance the emotional and mental and physical development of a puppy that has been separated from momma too early. As far as a "concerned, knowledgable breeder", how many vaccinations had your baby had when you took him home? Vaccinations given before 8 weeks are useless....effective vaccinations start at 8 weeks and are given at least 3 weeks apart..... an ethical breeder would never send an unvaccinated puppy out to a new home, unprotected from at least the core diseases.....you just care too much for your puppies to do that to them, never mind a new owner. It is such a heartbreak to lose a brand new baby, right after you get your baby home, to parvo because the breeder saved some big bucks by sending puppies out early enough so the breeder can dodge the added expense of vaccinations on her pups. Shows a great lack of interest in the puppies as well as the new owner....just saying!

My baby had her first round of shots and dewormer before I picked her up At the right age of 8 weeks for the initial shots. She had a health Check from her vet and I have an appointment this Saturday with my vet for another health check. My breeder was very good with my puppy. She made sure all was well before I took her home. I was instructed by my breeder to NOT bring her to potty outside yet due to parvo and other problems that could arise from doing so right now. I was also advised to make sure she eats and drinks alot of water to avoid becoming hypoglycemic. That being said, this is NOT my 1st yorkie. I am well aware of complications that "could" arise even if she is 1 yrs old. I can respect everyone's concern, but I just can't respect disrespecting someone because you feel they are less of a person for allowing a puppy to leave at 8 weeks. My baby girl will be loved and taken care of just like my child, because she is just that, my child. Again, Just saying!

Hopefully you will learn at lot from this board. In order to get rid of all the breeders who are not breeding right and do right by the breed we have to stop buying from them or we are doing damage to this lovely breed. I am guessing since you didn't answer my questions you don't know or your breeder didn't do those things which are big red flags. Go to a shelter, the sick section of the board and places where lots of people with dogs go and you will see what bad breeding does to this breed we have yorkies who don't look like yorkies, yorkies mixed with god knows what, and yorkies with serious terrible genetic issues. Do you how terrible and heart breaking it is to watch a dog suffer from a genetic illness or issue? Do you know the pain the dog goes through? Do you really understand how pups suffer from bad breeding?

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We all, I am sure, are thrilled you adore your baby girl as much as you do....that is a feeling every single one of us have, not unique to you! As far as "disrespecting someone because you feel they are less of a person for allowing a puppy to leave at 8 weeks....", well no one is feeling "anyone is less of a person" for any reason!!! There are things everyone does, especially people that sell products or sell services to other people, that many others do NOT agree with or approve of...that is called "business practices" and not "thinking anyone is less of a person". If a professional sees another professional, doing things they dont think are in the best interest of the customer, they have an obligation or responsibility to say something that at least educates, especially in a learning forum, so that people that are not knowledgable about everything dealing with that particular profession are not fooled or misled by incorrect information!!! Same thing with ANY service or product.....no disrespect, just disagreement on what is best for the consumer.

Those that believe puppies should remain with breeders 12-14 weeks old, are either well versed in breeding, whelping, care and management of those aspects, or they have researched the information available and have understood the benefits to the puppies. So the different advocates of this issue just approach the issue from different angles....we ALL adore and treasure our babies, breeders that hold onto their babies do so in spite of the extra work and the extra expense....they do it because they are convinced it is better for the puppy....our PRIMARY concern is for the benefit of the puppy, not ourselves, and there is absolutely no way a breeder that holds onto their puppies for that extra period of time could EVER be accused of anything but loving compassion and concern for, first and foremost, their puppies, and then extended to any new owner that buys from them.....going the extra mile is certainly NOT disrespect.....it is concern that the puppy gets the absolute very best start in life it can possibly get. Just cant "spin" that attention to the details, and special regard, adoration and concern for the puppy, and sincere interest in their new owner and what they are going to be facing with this new baby, into ANY form of "disrespect"!

Well it was just not the 8wk idea, but a lot of other questions were asked that had no answers from you. And when experienced breeder and dog fanciers question or query, they do this a lot from a) care of and for the health of the puppy and b) to provide some learning on best professional practises.
A comment to think about, as a breeder I would never send home a puppy within 72 hours of ashot being given. This way it is my responsibility and quite frankly that should ease your mind about this puppies response to the core set of vaccines. Although recent protocols are on the move again - I assume that you up on the latests AAHA and AVMA vaccination protocols ? These can be found in our library and it is good idea to print out and go to your vet with.


YorkieMom1 - makes incredibly valid points - a very well experienced breeder who understands the puppy enrichment process can do a better job with this youngster than probably 90 odd per cent of pet owners.


You may be home all day but do you know how to progress the puppies stimulations and instructional play time.


When I got my boy at 12weeks old, he already knew a halter a leash, his name, sit, come. And he was a tad under 3lbs and was the smallest thing (other than my own youngsters ) I had ever been responsible for. And toy drive had already been worked on.


So start doing some reading here - lots of fascinating research - articles in the library etc.
Stick around and enjoy what YT has to offer

Exactly and I think I queried a few things earlier in this thread re: this exact notion.

I got my puppy at 12 weeks and you know what my breeder told me? All of his shots are complete now until he turns one year old. Take him home, continue to socialize him and enjoy him. I didn't have to worry about him contracting a horrible disease because he was released too young. Just saying.

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I would just like to know how you know this? A lot of people who buy puppies think they are buying from a reputable breeder, but unfortunately that is not always the case. I am example of this as are many others on here that learned after the fact.

No matter how much you want to twist the facts, it is the overwhelming scientific and professional view of vets and animal behaviourists that puppies are fine to go to their new homes at 8 weeks of age.

The bile being hurled at people adhering to that advice is unjustified and says a lot about the rationality and personality of those spouting it.

Oh, come on, down get mad! No reason to boil over. What "facts" have we twisted and "bile" are you talking about? You personally demanded Lovetodream88 produce scientific evidence of her beliefs and all I am asking to see is scientific evidence of yours, which only seems fair. I asked if everyone wanted to see what I'd found in the way of scientific studies(evidence) that seemed to prove Lovetodream88 and most of our points on this thread and provided links to scientific abstracts with the entire studies for rental/purchase. These work products of months and years of very costly studies are rarely shared for free with the public. But you haven't yet provided links to scientific study abstracts/full article-access to prove your point of view yet, just someone's supposed summary, which is open to his interpretation and bias, too.

So why so upset? No need to get hyper - we're good folks and want what's best for the puppies. Just find some scientific studies that help prove the point you keep belaboring.

Otherwise, we're left with just a series of vets(not all reputable or small breed vets), breeders(not all breed for the best of reasons) and buyers personal impressions based on experiences - both good and bad, though we rarely see the "bad" published for public consumption other than in published scientific studies, really, do we? Breeders don't actually often share and broadcast records of their breeding failures in their brochures, magazine, newspapers and website ads, do they?

Contrary to your beliefs on the best separation age, most of the reputable, long-respected breeders on this large Yorkie forum who only breed to improve the Yorkshire Terrier seem to agree that the puppies fare better in life if left with mom for the extended period of 12 weeks. I'd hope most YT'ers tend to go along with these breeders' vast experience of long years and maybe even appreciate the published studies that tend to demonstrate the puppies themselves fare better in several areas if left longer with mom, at least until we see some other scientific, empirical evidence to disprove it.

Still, if you have no actual studies to share, that's okay, too. Everyone is free to form their own opinion on the subject of whether puppies lives are enriched and improved by an extended stay with the mother dog based on what we've all presented and discussed here.

How are your pups doing? Everybody thriving and mom okay?

Overwhelming scientific and professional views? You demand pier reviewed studies, but have provided none yourself. If it's"overwhelming" certainly you can find some (that are repeatable and pier reviewed) to share that prove your opinion.

IMO, your final comment was nothing short of insulting and uncalled-for. Unlike you, no one here has called you names or has questioned your rationality or personality, they've only tried to discuss their own beliefs, practices, and many years of experience. You're not going to get respect if you don't give it yourself.

Of course puppies can be separated form momma and litter at 7-8 weeks and survive. They're eating solid food by then, and that is what vets look for. But is that optimal for a tiny breed? They are so small and have so little reserves compared to the larger breeds. And they really miss out what they learn from being with the momma and litter during a crucial time of learning. The two Yorkies that at 7-8 weeks I got in years past were VERY difficult to break from bite inhibition, and don't get me started on the Maltese I almost lost to convulsions from hypoglycemia, and had to take off two weeks from work to watch and prevent three more episodes.

I am not a breeder (and I never plan to be), but as an adopter I know what I'm going to look for in the future as far as breeders go, and it won't be a breeder that lets their pups go at 7-8 weeks.

Overwhelming view for every breed of dog? I don't think so. There was no bile at anyone. Questioning of course. You asked for peer reviewed studies - yet you showed none. The fact remains that over here in North America, both the YTC A and Yorkshire Terrier Club of Canada recommend 12wks old. And they are not alone - Maltese Clubs and many other toy breed clubs do so as well...

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Excellent post! When one talks the talk, one should be able to walk that talk, and throwing out opinions with nothing but opinions to prop it up, is woefully inadequate. In this post above, scientific research and studies and how to procure them have been produced, not just opinion. It has always been my experience that a negligible number of owners or breeders that routinely buy puppies and sell at 6-8 weeks of age, will admit they have not acted in the best interest of the puppy. For a breeder to keep a puppy until 12-14 weeks of age, is certainly NOT doing it because they could care LESS about that puppy. Keeping puppies for an extended period of time is a labor of love, an emotional drain, nerve racking, time consuming, space allocation challenge, additional cleaning responsibilities, and last but not least, a proportionate decrease in a breeders ability to break even on the sale of that puppy! When sold at 6-8 weeks, NONE of the above points are an issue to be dealt with by a breeder.....so it is clearly in the best interest of the breeder to get those babies out to new homes as quickly as possible.....saves money, time, and labor. But it is NOT what is best for the puppy, and if you are breeding, THAT should your bottom line.....do what is absolutely the best for those puppies, from conception to dispersal. If that is NOT a breeders main concern, just be a broker.....less than 1/3 of the cost, work, worry, and emotional investment being a breeder entails.....and the broker's motivation is honest, transparent and needs no explanation or excuse.

12 weeks works for us at Sum Toi
 

I have read most of the posts , and I just thought I would tell you how I feel. As a breeder and show person , I feel like I want to do the very best job I can raising the puppies in my care. Believe me , from 8 weeks to 12 weeks there is a lot of work to do. Yes the easy way out is to send them out early and let the new families teach them and clean all the poop!!

But what worries me most is the health of the puppies. I want them to be with me when they get their first shot at 9 weeks. It is my job as a reputable breeder to take the responsibility to watch them closely . Just like human babies the shots can hurt and they may not want to eat. In a heart beat , they can go from good to being in a lot of trouble. They are here because I know what to do for them , I can see the signs early, my husband and I are here watching them.

The next three weeks , we play and teach the puppies , not to bite, and to play nice. They learn so much in the three weeks. Yes they eat well and yes they could go to their new homes , but it is their 12 week shot that I want them to have with me too. That is the shot that might bring on a reaction. Again, I want them with me , as they are my responsibility . I do not want the new families to deal with a sick puppy.

When the puppies leave our home I feel they are healthy and emotionally ready.

I know this from the calls I get, saying "I have the smartest puppy" or " my puppy slept through the night"

I think 12 weeks is the right age for the Yorkies, but that is just me. I believe I am a responsible breeder, and I will keep my puppies longer if needed . I do not breed for the money so I am in no hurry to get them out the door.

However, I do believe larger breed dogs should go to their new homes at or around 8 weeks, they are just stronger than our little toy dogs.:animal-pa:animal-pa

I think the points highlighted above are, for me, what distinguishes a breeder who is breeding for the betterment of the breed vs a breeder whose drive is the money.


I don't believe that YT's are necessarily going to come to great harm on every occasion when let go at 8 weeks but why take the chance unless it is for selfish reasons? There may be good reasons but I haven't seen any posted here, thus far.


Thank you for posting from your point of view!

"Puppies are most usually ready to leave their mothers at eight weeks old"

Osman A Sameja - The Yorkshire Terrier It's Care and Training ISBN 0 903264 25 0

And a logical fallacy of an appeal to novelty won't do.

I'm not invested in the debate one way or another...but I'm curious why you want to dump these puppies so early? Are they that much trouble under foot? If buyers think that breeders who keep pups to 12 weeks are better breeders why do you want to possibly impair your reputation? Just curious

Loaded question or what !

Might as well be trying to have a sensible discussion with a brick.

Have you any idea who the author of that books is ?

Good question...straight forward, precise, to the point....waiting for an answer to the question instead of total avoidance of your question.....sounded like a politician talking!

Okay, I will be the first to admit that I'm not the smartest when it comes down to getting a pup at a certain age. When I got my Cocker Spaniel, he was 9 weeks old. He was the last of the litter and according to my mom she had to sign a plethora of puppy papers. We never had an issue with him eating, socialization, ect. He was, aside from a hook worm incident, a healthy and happy dog. When I got my Yorkie, he was a mere 8 weeks old. He, too, was the last of the litter, and my mom payed half price for him. We had zero issues with him, and he was a healthy little dog.

In my opinion, which does not have to affect yours, is that it's fine for the pup to leave it's mother at both eight and twelve weeks; however, it needs to be ready and at a good weight/size, and the breeder needs to be educated and have good judgment. Of course, if the pup is not ready to leave the mother, the breeder can keep it until it is.

Wow, you really do have a chip on your shoulder....

Thank you. I thought it was a good question. I didn't find it to be loaded at all. It was quite simple...maybe I overestimated that it would be easily tackled by any breeder. She can't get rid of them fast enough and I wondered why. Might as well let them go at 6 weeks even!

Operative phrase....."cocker spaniel". Yorkies are not cockers..... Yorkies are a different breed, and while I have had cocker puppies, german shepherd puppies, irish setter puppies, pointer puppies, beagle puppies, and have bred Chihuahuas and Yorkies, Yorkies benefitted from remaining with momma for 12 weeks. I have seen the interaction of mommas and their babies, and Yorkies interact differently than any of the other breeds I have had the pleasure of watching develop and mature. Even if they did not learn and develop so much from week 8 to week 12, puppies going out at 8 weeks old are unvaccinated.....I wish a reputable breeder could expolane to me why in the world you would send out your puppies to new owners unvaccinated....or with only one in a series of 3 or 4 puppy shots given? It can only be to avoid the work involved with keeping those babies, or to avoid the expenses involved with those additional 4 weeks....I give my last puppy shot at 14 weeks of age, then keep the baby an additional week to give the shot time to become effective, and to make sure the baby is not going to have ANY adverse reaction to the shot. I can not stand the thought of dumping a youngster on a new owner, thinking they may get sick from the vaccination or anything else. Why would a breeder want to do that? Why would a breeder not even THINK about the possibility of that happening? Your primary concern SHOULD be for the well being of the puppy.....

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