How do you determine what is a puppy mill? - YorkieTalk.com Forums

wnalegria · 06-17-2005, 01:20 PM

I thought that it would be of interest to know what folks consider a puppy mill. How would you describe a puppy mill? I have listened to some chatter and I feel that there is some confusion out there. One person called a person who had more then one breed a puppy mill another called a puppy mill a breeder who had several females. Could a puppy mill be the person who is just breeding to breed.? What do you think

wnalegria

yorkiegal719 · 06-17-2005, 01:41 PM

To me it's the conditions that they live in and how they are taken care of, and the amount of litters produced. They have to have free access to exercise and be kept clean and up to day on all their vet appointments and vaccines. Anything/anyone to me, that doesn't treat them as members of the family

are puppymills, sorry that's the way I feel...

LvMyYorki · 06-17-2005, 02:00 PM

This is a very controversial topic however, you can find the best information regarding puppy mills here:
http://www.puppymills.com/

I personally would also steer clear of puppy brokers and pet stores as many often get their puppies from a mill and you will not be able to see the parents or the conditions that the puppies were raised in. I am not saying ALL as there is always the rare exception to the rule.

Passionfruition · 06-17-2005, 02:11 PM

Ok, I've been leery about the breeder's practices (the one we got Sully from)....

I respect her and know she did a good job with him...but I too was wondering where the line is drawn.

She has a huge yard and a large, indoor doghouse in their back yard. The doghouse has beds for each dog and a doggie door to come in and out of. (I think) I think it's also heated in the wintertime, at least a little bit.

The dogs are never fed regular food....which could be normal, I don't know. But it's food for pregnant, or could be pregnant etc.

Once she finds out that a female is pregnant, she brings her into the house and babies her through her pregnancy and gets the mom and puppies all sorts of vet checks, shots, vitamins, etc. that the need.

But my question is, how much love does she have for these dogs outside of breeding them? The way she talked, she seemed to have quite a few, and to me, having so many and keeping them outisde in a pen kinda bothers me.

But, I am not a breeder and I don't know at ALL "how it's done". I'm just a yorkie lover who thinks every yorkie should be pampered and spoiled. I don't question that she takes good care of her dogs, though.

I wanted to see her house and whre the dogs live, etc....but due to circumstances on the day-of, she was kind enough to meet me in Knoxville. (On that day we got Sully we'd driven all the way up from Hilton Head Island!)

I hope one day I can go visit her and take Sully to visit his relatives. And if I like what I see, Eli and I are hoping to get a little girl so Sully will have a sister! (But we have to wait at least 6mo. from now and straighten out our cross-country move until we know our new home will be able to cater to 2 dogs, hehe. But we're excited!)

Debr · 06-17-2005, 02:16 PM

My opinion is anyone who breeds to make money without caring about anything other then the dollar. Having more dogs breeding then one can devote time to, one who lets dogs live in subpar conditions, one who is just putting out puppies and know nothing about what they have produced they just how fat their wallet got. One who does not care for the physical or mental health of their dogs or puppies. One who does not know the ins and outs, the history of the breed, the bloodline of their dogs-they should know at least 5 generation history for health and genetic defects.Breeding females back to back. Part of the above can be applied to a backyard breeder-I guess when I'd consider it a mill is when they have multiple dogs producing constant litters. Having 3 breeds making 3 litters a year doing it right doesn't classify someone a backyard breeder or mill in my opinion, its when it is done without consideration of the dogs health, the pups future is when I consider it mill or backyard breeder.

Lady of Yorkies · 06-17-2005, 02:47 PM

I don't know either. I bought my 3rd pup from someone I thot was a mill. They had a big building with cages sticking out of the sides and end. About 3 or 4 high, I can't remember which. They could come and go thru doggie doors into the inside of the building. They had at least 3 different breeds. Some of the cages had 2 dogs others had only one. I don't know where they kept the puppies. They must have had at least 150 dogs. They were clean and looked good but how can you love and show love to so many? How can you have time to spend with them? I plan on becoming a breeder and having a kennel but I won't have more than I can be with for more than long enough to feed and water and pat on the head and off to the next one.

I was told later that because they were clean and I didn't see any sick dogs that it wasn't considered a mill. It appears that their idea of a mill is a dirty environment and sick dogs. I think a mill should be more than this. Sylvia

Passionfruition · 06-17-2005, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady of Yorkies

They had a big building with cages sticking out of the sides and end. About 3 or 4 high, I can't remember which. They could come and go thru doggie doors into the inside of the building. They had at least 3 different breeds. Some of the cages had 2 dogs others had only one. I don't know where they kept the puppies. They must have had at least 150 dogs.

That TOTALLY would be considered a mill, to me! Geez, 2 dogs in the same cage? 4 stacked high? 150 dogs? That's just stupid. They're breeding for money and they are obviously not giving their dogs the love the need and deserve.

I don't think all 150 would be breed-standard either, I mean, a true, honest breeder only breeds for the better of a breed. How do they even know which dog was the sire to all the pregnant females?

Stitches29 · 06-17-2005, 03:02 PM

[QUOTE=wnalegria]I thought that it would be of interest to know what folks consider a puppy mill. How would you describe a puppy mill? I have listened to some chatter and I feel that there is some confusion out there. One person called a person who had more then one breed a puppy mill another called a puppy mill a breeder who had several females. Could a puppy mill be the person who is just breeding to breed.? What do you think

My opinion of a mill is a place where puppies are constantly born, without regards to the health of the mother. The mother is bred and bred, over and over again, without allowing her to regain her health. Eventually the mother is put to sleep, because she doesn't have the strenght to give birth anymore. Keep in mind, this is only MY opinion and nothing more.

whispersmom2 · 06-17-2005, 03:10 PM

For those of us closer to PA there are sites about Amish puppy-mills.
I tell people to never meet the breeder in the "parking lot behind the K-mart!" (this is an actual meeting place for one miller who does not want people to see where her dogs live and the conditions). Insist on seeing the dog family and their living conditions..Maybe a preliminary visit to the breeder would be arranged then you can pick up the puppy later..

shelbysmom · 06-17-2005, 05:34 PM

And don't think just because a breeder shows dogs they are reputable. I had an active member of the YTCA refer me to another "show person" who is what most of you would consider a puppy mill.

Several pregnant dogs at one time...all with scheduled cesareans. She has a new litter ready to sell every couple of weeks.

Luvmypupster · 06-19-2005, 05:34 AM

IMO a mill is a setting in which a large quantity of breeding stock (usually more than one breed) is on the site to mass-produce litters. Animals may be in cages or allowed to free roam (free roaming results in mixed breeds that are sometimes passed off to the consumer as purebreds). Little or no thought into the breeding as far as the health and long term affects for the "breeding stock" or the offspring & not breeding within the standard. Many facilities are unclean, animals may have improper health care, inadequate water and food and one of the saddest parts to me is that they lack human contact, love and companionship. IMHO the "red flags" or warning signs are producing large quantities of litters, breeding several different breeds, the acceptance of credit cards, paypal, using pet shops or brokers to sell their stock. Many also sell direct through internet sites. Backyard breeders operate on a very small scale and while you may find a rare backyard breeder with enough knowledge and experience to breed it's a gamble buying from them as well. Make sure whomever you buy from knows their line, knows the medical history and possibility of any health or genetic problems that could surface. A good breeder is not going to continue to breed any dog that may produce future problems...mills don't care, backyard breeders may not care or even know what potential problems their dogs could produce. Good breeders are trying to improve the breed. Bad breeders don't care. I know there has been talk about "the standard" and I just want to explain why IMO the standard is important. People are usually first attracted to a breed because of its appearance and size. When a breeder deviates from breeding within the standard they may produce dogs that are not going to end up being what attracted some people to the breed in the first place. That is important to some people but not to others. A 15 lb yorkie is adorable but if you had your heart set on a 5 lb yorkie you could be a little disappointed in the size or appearance. So if you have your minds eye set a specific “look or size” the “standard” may be important to you.

wnalegria · 06-19-2005, 07:52 AM

[QUOTE=Stitches29]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wnalegria

I thought that it would be of interest to know what folks consider a puppy mill. How would you describe a puppy mill? I have listened to some chatter and I feel that there is some confusion out there. One person called a person who had more then one breed a puppy mill another called a puppy mill a breeder who had several females. Could a puppy mill be the person who is just breeding to breed.? What do you think

My opinion of a mill is a place where puppies are constantly born, without regards to the health of the mother. The mother is bred and bred, over and over again, without allowing her to regain her health. Eventually the mother is put to sleep, because she doesn't have the strenght to give birth anymore. Keep in mind, this is only MY opinion and nothing more.

I agree with you. I think that there is a lot of confusion on this subject. I have noticed that some folks just love the new puppy and the breeder. First problem comes along and they are calling the breeder a puppy mill or a bad back yard breeder. I think we need to use the term in the correct occasions.

We live in a credit card world should someone who accepts a credit card be called a puppy mill? I don't think so. That credit card gives you some protection that a check may not. If you purchase a puppy via a internet or out of state advertisement and the puppy is not sent to you you have the right to contact your credit card company. You file a complaint- the person is contacted by the company the credit card company and your money will be credited back to your account. You will need documentation to prove your case. But you have been afforded protection.

Are you a puppy mill because you advertise on the internet. NO. This is a bright new world. I placed a advertisement here for one of my stud dogs. Look how many requests did I get for pictures and a copy of the pedigree. How many of those contacts really had a desire to breed their female? How many just wanted to take a look at what I had never had any intention of breeding ( nothing wrong with that) . Do you realize the expense that would have been involved in making a copy of a six generation pedigree, taking pictures, the envelopes and the postage to mail this to each and every one.
How easy, post it on the website and direct you there for the information that you required. I have saved a lot of money and time.

A breeder in my area had a top winning Yorkie. She also has another breed.
Is she a puppy mill beacuse she has more then one breed?. No.

Should you be called a puppy mill or backyard breeder because you want to breed your pet that is very small or larger then the standard? Breeding a female too small or too large can endanger her health. Are you bettering the breed if you do not know the AKC standards and breed your female to your male cause you want a litter of puppes?

I think the term puppy mill should be used only in the correct situations. I accept credit cards-I have started a website. Am I a Puppy mill/backyard breeder ? According to some It looks like I am. Look a little closer could you have the same terms applied to you.

Food for thought.

Wnalegria

ssguzzy828 · 06-19-2005, 08:19 AM

To me a puppymill is someone who does not have the best interest of the animal first. The lady I got my yorkie from was very nice and does not breed every year. I also have a shepherd & I spent a whole year researching breeders reason being the size of the dog and temperment(i have 4 kids). The breeder i ended up buying my shep from was awesome,But she has 18 dogs not including puppies. Her dogs all see the vet regularly and her dogs are all groomed on a reg basis. They are all trained and have a huge yard to run in. I see some of you think if you have to many dogs how can you care for all of them. Well this is her life and her income. She would not go to the hospital (she copd) because she would not leave her dogs with anyone. So I guess puppymill is a term that could have many meanings to it. You cant lump every breeder who has many dogs,or accepts credit cards,or is on the internet together. You just can't do that. Yes there are def. some breeders out there who are just plain bad and unethical, but just because some of these breeders choose not to keep all thier dogs in the house does not make them bad. They may have a reason for it. I just learned you can not always just assume something you have to ask questions and do you research on a breeder. If you truly find that breeder to be a puppymill, then it is your right to let potential buyers know. But lets not forget for some people this is a job and a career, so before you label them as such make sure you know that for sure.

SoCalyorkiLvr · 06-19-2005, 08:42 AM

Thank you so much for posting this thread! I have been concerned about this for some time now and I have been trying to pose similar questions to get the members of this board and others to really educate themselves and "think" before they complain about a breeder or blame something on them or just say something negative or "follow the crowd" and maybe damage the reputation of a hard working, caring individual without really knowing, but merely speculating based on a few facts that they do know.

It is good to post the warning signs so we can investigate further but we shouldn't state something is "for sure" unless we know "for sure". To do so is speculation. It is also good to point out, as you have, certain things that are not necessarily signs of a puppymill, ie, having a website, taking credit cards and breeding more than one breed.

I have personally not run into any "horrible" breeders or brokers or anyone I would consider to be running a puppymill. There are good traits and not so good traits in all. No one has been perfect.

I personally want to thank you for your contributions to this board already. You are a voice of experienced reason and we can always use more of that!

Luvmypupster · 06-19-2005, 11:44 AM

I agree. As I said in my post those are my opinions and like it or not there's a lot of facts out there to back my opinions up, all you have to do is some research to see that their is truth in everything I stated. I'm not saying everyone whom breeds more than one breed, everyone with a website, etc. I am saying there are red flags that may indicate the possiblity. Just for the record..I'm not following the crowd. I want to thank you as well for bringing this up as people need to be aware that there are many good breeders and bad breeders out there. Everyone needs to take great care in searching for a pup. Nobody wants to be part of encouraging puppy mills.

06-17-2005, 01:20 PM	#1
wnalegria Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Indianapolis Indiana Posts: 815	How do you determine what is a puppy mill? I thought that it would be of interest to know what folks consider a puppy mill. How would you describe a puppy mill? I have listened to some chatter and I feel that there is some confusion out there. One person called a person who had more then one breed a puppy mill another called a puppy mill a breeder who had several females. Could a puppy mill be the person who is just breeding to breed.? What do you think wnalegria

06-17-2005, 01:41 PM	#2
yorkiegal719 YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 603	To me it's the conditions that they live in and how they are taken care of, and the amount of litters produced. They have to have free access to exercise and be kept clean and up to day on all their vet appointments and vaccines. Anything/anyone to me, that doesn't treat them as members of the family are puppymills, sorry that's the way I feel... __________________ Theresa & The Boys +1 The reason a dog has so many friends is that he wags his tail instead of his tongue

06-17-2005, 02:00 PM	#3
LvMyYorki Donating YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Asheville, NC Posts: 1,181	This is a very controversial topic however, you can find the best information regarding puppy mills here: http://www.puppymills.com/ I personally would also steer clear of puppy brokers and pet stores as many often get their puppies from a mill and you will not be able to see the parents or the conditions that the puppies were raised in. I am not saying ALL as there is always the rare exception to the rule. __________________ Tara, Tino & Diva Bunny Diva Bunny: http://www.dogster.com/?141104 Rudolph Valentino: http://www.dogster.com/?76963

06-17-2005, 02:11 PM	#4
Passionfruition Proud of my Sully! Donating Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: beautiful CHARLESTON, S.C. Posts: 5,454	Ok, I've been leery about the breeder's practices (the one we got Sully from).... I respect her and know she did a good job with him...but I too was wondering where the line is drawn. She has a huge yard and a large, indoor doghouse in their back yard. The doghouse has beds for each dog and a doggie door to come in and out of. (I think) I think it's also heated in the wintertime, at least a little bit. The dogs are never fed regular food....which could be normal, I don't know. But it's food for pregnant, or could be pregnant etc. Once she finds out that a female is pregnant, she brings her into the house and babies her through her pregnancy and gets the mom and puppies all sorts of vet checks, shots, vitamins, etc. that the need. But my question is, how much love does she have for these dogs outside of breeding them? The way she talked, she seemed to have quite a few, and to me, having so many and keeping them outisde in a pen kinda bothers me. But, I am not a breeder and I don't know at ALL "how it's done". I'm just a yorkie lover who thinks every yorkie should be pampered and spoiled. I don't question that she takes good care of her dogs, though. I wanted to see her house and whre the dogs live, etc....but due to circumstances on the day-of, she was kind enough to meet me in Knoxville. (On that day we got Sully we'd driven all the way up from Hilton Head Island!) I hope one day I can go visit her and take Sully to visit his relatives. And if I like what I see, Eli and I are hoping to get a little girl so Sully will have a sister! (But we have to wait at least 6mo. from now and straighten out our cross-country move until we know our new home will be able to cater to 2 dogs, hehe. But we're excited!) __________________ - - - - - - - - - - - - I love my Sully (the Wonderdog!)

06-17-2005, 02:16 PM	#5
Debr Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 86	My opinion is anyone who breeds to make money without caring about anything other then the dollar. Having more dogs breeding then one can devote time to, one who lets dogs live in subpar conditions, one who is just putting out puppies and know nothing about what they have produced they just how fat their wallet got. One who does not care for the physical or mental health of their dogs or puppies. One who does not know the ins and outs, the history of the breed, the bloodline of their dogs-they should know at least 5 generation history for health and genetic defects.Breeding females back to back. Part of the above can be applied to a backyard breeder-I guess when I'd consider it a mill is when they have multiple dogs producing constant litters. Having 3 breeds making 3 litters a year doing it right doesn't classify someone a backyard breeder or mill in my opinion, its when it is done without consideration of the dogs health, the pups future is when I consider it mill or backyard breeder. __________________ Debbie's Ark Dixie Zoie,Angel,Joker & Zak Feline friends: Chachi & Sammy

06-17-2005, 02:47 PM	#6
Lady of Yorkies YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,562	I don't know either. I bought my 3rd pup from someone I thot was a mill. They had a big building with cages sticking out of the sides and end. About 3 or 4 high, I can't remember which. They could come and go thru doggie doors into the inside of the building. They had at least 3 different breeds. Some of the cages had 2 dogs others had only one. I don't know where they kept the puppies. They must have had at least 150 dogs. They were clean and looked good but how can you love and show love to so many? How can you have time to spend with them? I plan on becoming a breeder and having a kennel but I won't have more than I can be with for more than long enough to feed and water and pat on the head and off to the next one. I was told later that because they were clean and I didn't see any sick dogs that it wasn't considered a mill. It appears that their idea of a mill is a dirty environment and sick dogs. I think a mill should be more than this. Sylvia

06-17-2005, 03:02 PM	#8
Stitches29 My Little Magwad Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 1,739	[QUOTE=wnalegria]I thought that it would be of interest to know what folks consider a puppy mill. How would you describe a puppy mill? I have listened to some chatter and I feel that there is some confusion out there. One person called a person who had more then one breed a puppy mill another called a puppy mill a breeder who had several females. Could a puppy mill be the person who is just breeding to breed.? What do you think My opinion of a mill is a place where puppies are constantly born, without regards to the health of the mother. The mother is bred and bred, over and over again, without allowing her to regain her health. Eventually the mother is put to sleep, because she doesn't have the strenght to give birth anymore. Keep in mind, this is only MY opinion and nothing more. __________________ "My Furkids" Maggie, Molly and Meme...

06-17-2005, 03:10 PM	#9
whispersmom2 Inactive Account Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: MD Posts: 2,985	For those of us closer to PA there are sites about Amish puppy-mills. I tell people to never meet the breeder in the "parking lot behind the K-mart!" (this is an actual meeting place for one miller who does not want people to see where her dogs live and the conditions). Insist on seeing the dog family and their living conditions..Maybe a preliminary visit to the breeder would be arranged then you can pick up the puppy later..

06-17-2005, 05:34 PM	#10
shelbysmom YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,394	And don't think just because a breeder shows dogs they are reputable. I had an active member of the YTCA refer me to another "show person" who is what most of you would consider a puppy mill. Several pregnant dogs at one time...all with scheduled cesareans. She has a new litter ready to sell every couple of weeks.

06-19-2005, 05:34 AM	#11
Luvmypupster YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: tx Posts: 624	IMO a mill is a setting in which a large quantity of breeding stock (usually more than one breed) is on the site to mass-produce litters. Animals may be in cages or allowed to free roam (free roaming results in mixed breeds that are sometimes passed off to the consumer as purebreds). Little or no thought into the breeding as far as the health and long term affects for the "breeding stock" or the offspring & not breeding within the standard. Many facilities are unclean, animals may have improper health care, inadequate water and food and one of the saddest parts to me is that they lack human contact, love and companionship. IMHO the "red flags" or warning signs are producing large quantities of litters, breeding several different breeds, the acceptance of credit cards, paypal, using pet shops or brokers to sell their stock. Many also sell direct through internet sites. Backyard breeders operate on a very small scale and while you may find a rare backyard breeder with enough knowledge and experience to breed it's a gamble buying from them as well. Make sure whomever you buy from knows their line, knows the medical history and possibility of any health or genetic problems that could surface. A good breeder is not going to continue to breed any dog that may produce future problems...mills don't care, backyard breeders may not care or even know what potential problems their dogs could produce. Good breeders are trying to improve the breed. Bad breeders don't care. I know there has been talk about "the standard" and I just want to explain why IMO the standard is important. People are usually first attracted to a breed because of its appearance and size. When a breeder deviates from breeding within the standard they may produce dogs that are not going to end up being what attracted some people to the breed in the first place. That is important to some people but not to others. A 15 lb yorkie is adorable but if you had your heart set on a 5 lb yorkie you could be a little disappointed in the size or appearance. So if you have your minds eye set a specific “look or size” the “standard” may be important to you. __________________ Emme & Faith R.I.P. Mia & Bentley

06-19-2005, 08:19 AM	#13
ssguzzy828 YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: south suburbs of illinois Posts: 734	To me a puppymill is someone who does not have the best interest of the animal first. The lady I got my yorkie from was very nice and does not breed every year. I also have a shepherd & I spent a whole year researching breeders reason being the size of the dog and temperment(i have 4 kids). The breeder i ended up buying my shep from was awesome,But she has 18 dogs not including puppies. Her dogs all see the vet regularly and her dogs are all groomed on a reg basis. They are all trained and have a huge yard to run in. I see some of you think if you have to many dogs how can you care for all of them. Well this is her life and her income. She would not go to the hospital (she copd) because she would not leave her dogs with anyone. So I guess puppymill is a term that could have many meanings to it. You cant lump every breeder who has many dogs,or accepts credit cards,or is on the internet together. You just can't do that. Yes there are def. some breeders out there who are just plain bad and unethical, but just because some of these breeders choose not to keep all thier dogs in the house does not make them bad. They may have a reason for it. I just learned you can not always just assume something you have to ask questions and do you research on a breeder. If you truly find that breeder to be a puppymill, then it is your right to let potential buyers know. But lets not forget for some people this is a job and a career, so before you label them as such make sure you know that for sure.

06-19-2005, 08:42 AM	#14
SoCalyorkiLvr BANNED! Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 8,246	Excellent Question! Thank you so much for posting this thread! I have been concerned about this for some time now and I have been trying to pose similar questions to get the members of this board and others to really educate themselves and "think" before they complain about a breeder or blame something on them or just say something negative or "follow the crowd" and maybe damage the reputation of a hard working, caring individual without really knowing, but merely speculating based on a few facts that they do know. It is good to post the warning signs so we can investigate further but we shouldn't state something is "for sure" unless we know "for sure". To do so is speculation. It is also good to point out, as you have, certain things that are not necessarily signs of a puppymill, ie, having a website, taking credit cards and breeding more than one breed. I have personally not run into any "horrible" breeders or brokers or anyone I would consider to be running a puppymill. There are good traits and not so good traits in all. No one has been perfect. I personally want to thank you for your contributions to this board already. You are a voice of experienced reason and we can always use more of that!

06-19-2005, 11:44 AM	#15
Luvmypupster YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: tx Posts: 624	I agree. As I said in my post those are my opinions and like it or not there's a lot of facts out there to back my opinions up, all you have to do is some research to see that their is truth in everything I stated. I'm not saying everyone whom breeds more than one breed, everyone with a website, etc. I am saying there are red flags that may indicate the possiblity. Just for the record..I'm not following the crowd. I want to thank you as well for bringing this up as people need to be aware that there are many good breeders and bad breeders out there. Everyone needs to take great care in searching for a pup. Nobody wants to be part of encouraging puppy mills. __________________ Emme & Faith R.I.P. Mia & Bentley Last edited by Luvmypupster; 06-19-2005 at 11:49 AM.