red flags
 

A puppymill to me is a high volume breeder who sells to brokers, who in turn supply pet shops. They have many different breeds. It can be hospital clean and have the best of vet care..it is still a puppy farm.
I have been to a couple year ago..I guess I had to see for myself.
There are so many terms, hobby, backyard, commerical..

I agree Pat, there are clean mills out there too!

Someone who is USDA registered is usually a puppymill; I am leary of someone who has more than one breed, two at the most and has more than a handful of females of that breed. I rarely trust breeders in those "mill states" either.

Puppy Mills
 

My concern was that we loose our objectivity. The big word was the
" may be". I would hate for a new person interested in the breed to see the words Credit Card/ Internet etc. and make as assumption that may not be true. My other concern was that I do not want a new pet owner to think anything that might go wrong with their puppy is the breeders fault and therefore the breeder is a puupy mill.

We should give suggestions to folks on some of the things to look for, and ask when interviewing a breeder. It would be informative to tell new owners some of the health issues and habits that yorkies have and what to look for. Notice I said interviewing in a previous statement - you have all the power -you can walk out the door and go elsewhere for a puppy. You should place as much time and research into the purchase of your new puppy as you would for any major purchase.


wnalegria/kathy

From Kathy's post:

We should give suggestions to folks on some of the things to look for, and ask when interviewing a breeder. It would be informative to tell new owners some of the health issues and habits that yorkies have and what to look for. Notice I said interviewing in a previous statement - you have all the power -you can walk out the door and go elsewhere for a puppy. You should place as much time and research into the purchase of your new puppy as you would for any major purchase.

Check out this site: http://www.breeders.net/checklist.html

There's also one for interviewing prospective parents but I don't remember where. Sylvia

How do your determine what is a puppy mill?
 

The website above is great. Part two is very restricive and spells things out clearly. Will you be able to find all of those items - in a breeder I am not sure.

You may have difficulty finding a breeder with a two year congenital health warranty. I would have concerns if warranty is less then a year or none at all.

There may not be a breed club in their area for them to belong to.

Breeders primary concern is finding home for puppy rather than getting paid.
Wow- someone could take this statement and run with it. There are a lot of folks out there who would take this to mean- You should give me my puppy if you care about the breed or I should get a reduction in the price. If you don't do this you are a bad breeder. (The funny thing is these are the same ones who would not give you a discount)

Being bound by the breeder.net Code of ethics. Wonder how many folks are aware of the site.

If you purchased the sire and dam you may not have information on health testing on both of them's immediate family.


Wnalegria

How do your determine what is a puppy mill?
 

The website above is great. Part two is very restricive and spells things out clearly. Will you be able to find all of those items - in a breeder I am not sure.

You may have difficulty finding a breeder with a two year congenital health warranty. I would have concerns if warranty is less then a year or none at all.

There may not be a breed club in their area for them to belong to.

Breeders primary concern is finding home for puppy rather than getting paid.
Wow- someone could take this statement and run with it. There are a lot of folks out there who would take this to mean- You should give me my puppy if you care about the breed or I should get a reduction in the price. If you don't do this you are a bad breeder. (The funny thing is these are the same ones who would not give you a discount)

Being bound by the breeder.net Code of ethics. Wonder how many folks are aware of the site.

If you purchased the sire and dam you may not have information on health testing done on their immediate family.

How many items on this list do you think would be a thumbs up for a breeder?

wnalegria

Unfortunately there are people whom don't put much time or research into purchasing a pet. Unfortunately there are many bad breeders out there and people are buying from them. I guess I know of too many instances where people have purchased sickly dogs, dogs that have died, dogs that end up not being purebred and dogs not being within the standard as the owner had expected. That is one of the problems with internet sales. Many times the customer lives too far to check things out. You can run an internet site from anywhere and can make the site look great when behind the scenes things can be very bad. Here's a perfect example of a huge well known mill.
http://www.hollybellemaltese.com/index2.html
People saw beautiful maltese in the pictures..some pictures were pirated. Hollybelle had references from satisfied customers, pictures of her standing next to a "famous satisfied customer" everything "looked and sounded" good. Then people started complaining about not getting pups as promised, not getting papers or some kind of "mix-up" with the papers. People were getting sick pups, problems and complaints were coming from everywhere. This is not an isolated example..there's a whole plethora of problems out there.

LOL I wasn't advocating the site. I thot the breeder check list would be a place to start when looking for a breeder. I can't say if the site is good or bad. I saw it on a thread somewhere and went to check it out and found the breeder check list and when Kathy said we should give suggestions I thot that here is a list that just needs added to by people with real life experiences. I'm sorry I hope no one thot that the list is a rule, it's just a guide line. No one will meet all the criteria(sp?). I myself will go thru it the next time I buy a pup and pick out the points I think are most important to me. Sylvia

Hmm...I don't know if I agree with that.

My first dog (a poodle) was bought from a breeder who kept the dogs and puppies in the house with her. They were treated as pets. But in hindsight they were not very well taken care of. Our puppy had worms and fleas when we brought her home. The food we were given to feed her was adult food instead of puppy food. She was not completely up to date with her shots. Luckily after we took care of the fleas, worms and the shots, she was a healthy happy dog who lived to the ripe old age of 17 before she died of old age. Obviously the neglect of the breeder had no lasting effects.

Sydney was purchased from a breeder that I personally know. She has many dogs (4 yorkies and 2 chi's). The 2 breeding mother dogs are kept in the garage (heated) and the non-breeding dogs are kept in the house. The 2 yorkies that are non-breeding dogs used to be breeding dogs but are now too old and have been spayed, and they now live in the house. I think that she does this partially because of the mess of them going into heat, and partially becuase they act strangly when they become pregnant and have injured her other "pet" dogs in the past if not seperated. Sydney was 100% healthy when I brought her home...no fleas, or worms and she was up on her shots. My breeder had taken both the mother and the puppies to the vet many times during and after the pregnancy at the appropriate times. Both of the mothers that she owns and the stud that she uses are from very good bloodlines. Sydney has strong back and hips, and the vet forsees no back or hip problems in her future. Obviously my breeder played with and loved the puppies because Sydney practically wets herself with excitement every time we run into the breeder at the petstore.

Anyway...now that I have written a book here...my point is that I don't think that just because the breeding dogs are not kept in the home like pets, that the breeder is running a puppy mill.

Holly, sounds like your breeder was a very caring breeder. I don't consider the number of her dogs to be too many and she certainly doesn't sound like a mill.

For a questtionaire for the breeder to ask the prospective purchaser go to www.dandieyorkies.com.

questttionaire
 

The questtionaire looks great. But what if that puppy buyer want to be lies to you when he/she fills it out? The refences that the buyer gives may not be true. The door can swing both ways- The breeder may have a difficult time finding a good buyer for the puppy that so much love, effort and thought, and expense has gone into producing- the buyer may have a difficult time finding the breeder who has placed- love, effort, thought and expense into producing his/her puppy.



I would rather sell my kids to a great pet home then the person who states they want to show or breed. The number of folks who really have the true desire to show are few and far between. They find out that is is hard work and expensive.

A person who plans to breed can find out that you can have your tail docked real quick. A unplanned c-section at the emergency animal clinic can cost $1,000.00 and up. Payable right then and there ( with no payment plans). You sit and pray that you can come home with live puppies and a mom that has survived.


Wnalegria

having had a bad breeder experience, one of the biggest heart breaks of my life I have different views.

Having bought a shep from a bad breeder-.
The breeder I got my first male from was the worst of the bunch. She had disney world reference -she stated the letter was meaning they were going to solely do business with her-later found out it was just a billing issue and letter was stating she would be paid soon, letter was simple so could have meant anything. She had letters from police officers-later found out those letters were not to her but she took them from a popular kennel website and posted to hers, printed out copies,framed them and put up on her walls.She also printed out photos of police officers with their dogs, put up on her walls and passed them off as her pups. As I found out by calling every shepherd breeder & club in the state-more then once I was told I had dealt with the con of all cons, the worst breeder in the state. She seemed to have all the right answers when I went to pick out a pup, she seemed to have all the credentials-but it was all an illusion. She has a business card with a liscense number on it-through my search I found out her business liscense expired in the early 90's and she continues to use the number. People who have purchased ill dogs can sue her on a personal level but not as a breder or profesisonal-meaning most of the vet expenses are not paid for by her as the puppy lemon law has minimal liability on personal level but extensive liability on a business level.My dog was 8 weeks when I got him-he had kennel cough, fleas, tape worms, one other worm(due to resistance of the tapeworm and kennel cough cost me over $600 to cure him of these ailments he came with), a birth defect in his ear- a 3rd ear growing out of his left ear and showed extreme aggression by 10weeks old to those outside my home. I immediatly took him to puppy classes and a dog park for daily visits-the aggression was ingrained from his mother, it was something I could not fix. This was determined by a profesisonal trainer & my vet .I had to have a trainer come to my home when he was 6 months-the puppy class could not allow him to continue as his aggression was dangerous. By time he was 10months old I was afraid he would kill someone. I found out my dog was not the only one coming from her "champion show" lines that was this way, sadly alot coming from her are the same.She does put papers on dogs that did not come from the parents specified on said papers, she picks up puppies from people selling $50-$200 pups and papers them to her show lines selling them for $1500-$5000. She took alot of money to breed someones female to a certain male-the male would not perform, she bred the female to a different male, called the owners female and said the breeding was done-signed papers that the other male bred her. I learned alot after the fact, I know someone who did work for her-I know all the dirty on her. What I have learned is she is a con, being a con she knows how to make it all look good, what to say and how to act to make the sale. When I came to her place-she knew I'd be taking my son with me. She had a pup run out to me-she knows children will fall for first one they see all it takes is 2 minutes of puppy kisses and tail wags and parents will usually buy because it likes the child. She had sucker written on my head before I even went to her kennel. This info was told to me from her former employee-this is how she works.She makes sales but people do not return when looking for another dog, and people dont come to her from referrals. She has been doing this since the 80's.

Point being, I guess if someone is a con they know how to take advantage and make things work to their benefit-this can go in the direction of a bad potential owner or a bad breeder.A con knows what to say, what answers to give. My first breeder experience was a bad one that left a big hole in my heart therefor I will never again deal with people I do not know or someone I trust does not know well. If I had a better experience I guess I would have different views.