How do you determine what is a puppy mill?
 

I thought that it would be of interest to know what folks consider a puppy mill. How would you describe a puppy mill? I have listened to some chatter and I feel that there is some confusion out there. One person called a person who had more then one breed a puppy mill another called a puppy mill a breeder who had several females. Could a puppy mill be the person who is just breeding to breed.? What do you think



wnalegria

To me it's the conditions that they live in and how they are taken care of, and the amount of litters produced. They have to have free access to exercise and be kept clean and up to day on all their vet appointments and vaccines. Anything/anyone to me, that doesn't treat them as members of the family :sad: are puppymills, sorry that's the way I feel...

This is a very controversial topic however, you can find the best information regarding puppy mills here:
http://www.puppymills.com/

I personally would also steer clear of puppy brokers and pet stores as many often get their puppies from a mill and you will not be able to see the parents or the conditions that the puppies were raised in. I am not saying ALL as there is always the rare exception to the rule.

Ok, I've been leery about the breeder's practices (the one we got Sully from)....

I respect her and know she did a good job with him...but I too was wondering where the line is drawn.

She has a huge yard and a large, indoor doghouse in their back yard. The doghouse has beds for each dog and a doggie door to come in and out of. (I think) I think it's also heated in the wintertime, at least a little bit.

The dogs are never fed regular food....which could be normal, I don't know. But it's food for pregnant, or could be pregnant etc.

Once she finds out that a female is pregnant, she brings her into the house and babies her through her pregnancy and gets the mom and puppies all sorts of vet checks, shots, vitamins, etc. that the need.

But my question is, how much love does she have for these dogs outside of breeding them? The way she talked, she seemed to have quite a few, and to me, having so many and keeping them outisde in a pen kinda bothers me.

But, I am not a breeder and I don't know at ALL "how it's done". I'm just a yorkie lover who thinks every yorkie should be pampered and spoiled. I don't question that she takes good care of her dogs, though.

I wanted to see her house and whre the dogs live, etc....but due to circumstances on the day-of, she was kind enough to meet me in Knoxville. (On that day we got Sully we'd driven all the way up from Hilton Head Island!)

I hope one day I can go visit her and take Sully to visit his relatives. And if I like what I see, Eli and I are hoping to get a little girl so Sully will have a sister! (But we have to wait at least 6mo. from now and straighten out our cross-country move until we know our new home will be able to cater to 2 dogs, hehe. But we're excited!)

My opinion is anyone who breeds to make money without caring about anything other then the dollar. Having more dogs breeding then one can devote time to, one who lets dogs live in subpar conditions, one who is just putting out puppies and know nothing about what they have produced they just how fat their wallet got. One who does not care for the physical or mental health of their dogs or puppies. One who does not know the ins and outs, the history of the breed, the bloodline of their dogs-they should know at least 5 generation history for health and genetic defects.Breeding females back to back. Part of the above can be applied to a backyard breeder-I guess when I'd consider it a mill is when they have multiple dogs producing constant litters. Having 3 breeds making 3 litters a year doing it right doesn't classify someone a backyard breeder or mill in my opinion, its when it is done without consideration of the dogs health, the pups future is when I consider it mill or backyard breeder.

I don't know either. I bought my 3rd pup from someone I thot was a mill. They had a big building with cages sticking out of the sides and end. About 3 or 4 high, I can't remember which. They could come and go thru doggie doors into the inside of the building. They had at least 3 different breeds. Some of the cages had 2 dogs others had only one. I don't know where they kept the puppies. They must have had at least 150 dogs. They were clean and looked good but how can you love and show love to so many? How can you have time to spend with them? I plan on becoming a breeder and having a kennel but I won't have more than I can be with for more than long enough to feed and water and pat on the head and off to the next one.

I was told later that because they were clean and I didn't see any sick dogs that it wasn't considered a mill. It appears that their idea of a mill is a dirty environment and sick dogs. I think a mill should be more than this. Sylvia

That TOTALLY would be considered a mill, to me! Geez, 2 dogs in the same cage? 4 stacked high? 150 dogs? That's just stupid. They're breeding for money and they are obviously not giving their dogs the love the need and deserve.

I don't think all 150 would be breed-standard either, I mean, a true, honest breeder only breeds for the better of a breed. How do they even know which dog was the sire to all the pregnant females?

[QUOTE=wnalegria]I thought that it would be of interest to know what folks consider a puppy mill. How would you describe a puppy mill? I have listened to some chatter and I feel that there is some confusion out there. One person called a person who had more then one breed a puppy mill another called a puppy mill a breeder who had several females. Could a puppy mill be the person who is just breeding to breed.? What do you think

My opinion of a mill is a place where puppies are constantly born, without regards to the health of the mother. The mother is bred and bred, over and over again, without allowing her to regain her health. Eventually the mother is put to sleep, because she doesn't have the strenght to give birth anymore. Keep in mind, this is only MY opinion and nothing more.

For those of us closer to PA there are sites about Amish puppy-mills.
I tell people to never meet the breeder in the "parking lot behind the K-mart!" (this is an actual meeting place for one miller who does not want people to see where her dogs live and the conditions). Insist on seeing the dog family and their living conditions..Maybe a preliminary visit to the breeder would be arranged then you can pick up the puppy later..

And don't think just because a breeder shows dogs they are reputable. I had an active member of the YTCA refer me to another "show person" who is what most of you would consider a puppy mill.

Several pregnant dogs at one time...all with scheduled cesareans. She has a new litter ready to sell every couple of weeks.

IMO a mill is a setting in which a large quantity of breeding stock (usually more than one breed) is on the site to mass-produce litters. Animals may be in cages or allowed to free roam (free roaming results in mixed breeds that are sometimes passed off to the consumer as purebreds). Little or no thought into the breeding as far as the health and long term affects for the "breeding stock" or the offspring & not breeding within the standard. Many facilities are unclean, animals may have improper health care, inadequate water and food and one of the saddest parts to me is that they lack human contact, love and companionship. IMHO the "red flags" or warning signs are producing large quantities of litters, breeding several different breeds, the acceptance of credit cards, paypal, using pet shops or brokers to sell their stock. Many also sell direct through internet sites. Backyard breeders operate on a very small scale and while you may find a rare backyard breeder with enough knowledge and experience to breed it's a gamble buying from them as well. Make sure whomever you buy from knows their line, knows the medical history and possibility of any health or genetic problems that could surface. A good breeder is not going to continue to breed any dog that may produce future problems...mills don't care, backyard breeders may not care or even know what potential problems their dogs could produce. Good breeders are trying to improve the breed. Bad breeders don't care. I know there has been talk about "the standard" and I just want to explain why IMO the standard is important. People are usually first attracted to a breed because of its appearance and size. When a breeder deviates from breeding within the standard they may produce dogs that are not going to end up being what attracted some people to the breed in the first place. That is important to some people but not to others. A 15 lb yorkie is adorable but if you had your heart set on a 5 lb yorkie you could be a little disappointed in the size or appearance. So if you have your minds eye set a specific “look or size” the “standard” may be important to you.

Puppy Mill
 

[QUOTE=Stitches29]
I agree with you. I think that there is a lot of confusion on this subject. I have noticed that some folks just love the new puppy and the breeder. First problem comes along and they are calling the breeder a puppy mill or a bad back yard breeder. I think we need to use the term in the correct occasions.

We live in a credit card world should someone who accepts a credit card be called a puppy mill? I don't think so. That credit card gives you some protection that a check may not. If you purchase a puppy via a internet or out of state advertisement and the puppy is not sent to you you have the right to contact your credit card company. You file a complaint- the person is contacted by the company the credit card company and your money will be credited back to your account. You will need documentation to prove your case. But you have been afforded protection.

Are you a puppy mill because you advertise on the internet. NO. This is a bright new world. I placed a advertisement here for one of my stud dogs. Look how many requests did I get for pictures and a copy of the pedigree. How many of those contacts really had a desire to breed their female? How many just wanted to take a look at what I had never had any intention of breeding ( nothing wrong with that) . Do you realize the expense that would have been involved in making a copy of a six generation pedigree, taking pictures, the envelopes and the postage to mail this to each and every one.
How easy, post it on the website and direct you there for the information that you required. I have saved a lot of money and time.

A breeder in my area had a top winning Yorkie. She also has another breed.
Is she a puppy mill beacuse she has more then one breed?. No.

Should you be called a puppy mill or backyard breeder because you want to breed your pet that is very small or larger then the standard? Breeding a female too small or too large can endanger her health. Are you bettering the breed if you do not know the AKC standards and breed your female to your male cause you want a litter of puppes?

I think the term puppy mill should be used only in the correct situations. I accept credit cards-I have started a website. Am I a Puppy mill/backyard breeder ? According to some It looks like I am. Look a little closer could you have the same terms applied to you.

Food for thought.

Wnalegria

To me a puppymill is someone who does not have the best interest of the animal first. The lady I got my yorkie from was very nice and does not breed every year. I also have a shepherd & I spent a whole year researching breeders reason being the size of the dog and temperment(i have 4 kids). The breeder i ended up buying my shep from was awesome,But she has 18 dogs not including puppies. Her dogs all see the vet regularly and her dogs are all groomed on a reg basis. They are all trained and have a huge yard to run in. I see some of you think if you have to many dogs how can you care for all of them. Well this is her life and her income. She would not go to the hospital (she copd) because she would not leave her dogs with anyone. So I guess puppymill is a term that could have many meanings to it. You cant lump every breeder who has many dogs,or accepts credit cards,or is on the internet together. You just can't do that. Yes there are def. some breeders out there who are just plain bad and unethical, but just because some of these breeders choose not to keep all thier dogs in the house does not make them bad. They may have a reason for it. I just learned you can not always just assume something you have to ask questions and do you research on a breeder. If you truly find that breeder to be a puppymill, then it is your right to let potential buyers know. But lets not forget for some people this is a job and a career, so before you label them as such make sure you know that for sure.

Excellent Question!
 

Thank you so much for posting this thread! I have been concerned about this for some time now and I have been trying to pose similar questions to get the members of this board and others to really educate themselves and "think" before they complain about a breeder or blame something on them or just say something negative or "follow the crowd" and maybe damage the reputation of a hard working, caring individual without really knowing, but merely speculating based on a few facts that they do know.

It is good to post the warning signs so we can investigate further but we shouldn't state something is "for sure" unless we know "for sure". To do so is speculation. It is also good to point out, as you have, certain things that are not necessarily signs of a puppymill, ie, having a website, taking credit cards and breeding more than one breed.

I have personally not run into any "horrible" breeders or brokers or anyone I would consider to be running a puppymill. There are good traits and not so good traits in all. No one has been perfect.

I personally want to thank you for your contributions to this board already. You are a voice of experienced reason and we can always use more of that!

I agree. As I said in my post those are my opinions and like it or not there's a lot of facts out there to back my opinions up, all you have to do is some research to see that their is truth in everything I stated. I'm not saying everyone whom breeds more than one breed, everyone with a website, etc. I am saying there are red flags that may indicate the possiblity. Just for the record..I'm not following the crowd. I want to thank you as well for bringing this up as people need to be aware that there are many good breeders and bad breeders out there. Everyone needs to take great care in searching for a pup. Nobody wants to be part of encouraging puppy mills.

red flags
 

A puppymill to me is a high volume breeder who sells to brokers, who in turn supply pet shops. They have many different breeds. It can be hospital clean and have the best of vet care..it is still a puppy farm.
I have been to a couple year ago..I guess I had to see for myself.
There are so many terms, hobby, backyard, commerical..

I agree Pat, there are clean mills out there too!

Someone who is USDA registered is usually a puppymill; I am leary of someone who has more than one breed, two at the most and has more than a handful of females of that breed. I rarely trust breeders in those "mill states" either.

Puppy Mills
 

My concern was that we loose our objectivity. The big word was the
" may be". I would hate for a new person interested in the breed to see the words Credit Card/ Internet etc. and make as assumption that may not be true. My other concern was that I do not want a new pet owner to think anything that might go wrong with their puppy is the breeders fault and therefore the breeder is a puupy mill.

We should give suggestions to folks on some of the things to look for, and ask when interviewing a breeder. It would be informative to tell new owners some of the health issues and habits that yorkies have and what to look for. Notice I said interviewing in a previous statement - you have all the power -you can walk out the door and go elsewhere for a puppy. You should place as much time and research into the purchase of your new puppy as you would for any major purchase.


wnalegria/kathy

From Kathy's post:

We should give suggestions to folks on some of the things to look for, and ask when interviewing a breeder. It would be informative to tell new owners some of the health issues and habits that yorkies have and what to look for. Notice I said interviewing in a previous statement - you have all the power -you can walk out the door and go elsewhere for a puppy. You should place as much time and research into the purchase of your new puppy as you would for any major purchase.

Check out this site: http://www.breeders.net/checklist.html

There's also one for interviewing prospective parents but I don't remember where. Sylvia

How do your determine what is a puppy mill?
 

The website above is great. Part two is very restricive and spells things out clearly. Will you be able to find all of those items - in a breeder I am not sure.

You may have difficulty finding a breeder with a two year congenital health warranty. I would have concerns if warranty is less then a year or none at all.

There may not be a breed club in their area for them to belong to.

Breeders primary concern is finding home for puppy rather than getting paid.
Wow- someone could take this statement and run with it. There are a lot of folks out there who would take this to mean- You should give me my puppy if you care about the breed or I should get a reduction in the price. If you don't do this you are a bad breeder. (The funny thing is these are the same ones who would not give you a discount)

Being bound by the breeder.net Code of ethics. Wonder how many folks are aware of the site.

If you purchased the sire and dam you may not have information on health testing on both of them's immediate family.


Wnalegria

How do your determine what is a puppy mill?
 

The website above is great. Part two is very restricive and spells things out clearly. Will you be able to find all of those items - in a breeder I am not sure.

You may have difficulty finding a breeder with a two year congenital health warranty. I would have concerns if warranty is less then a year or none at all.

There may not be a breed club in their area for them to belong to.

Breeders primary concern is finding home for puppy rather than getting paid.
Wow- someone could take this statement and run with it. There are a lot of folks out there who would take this to mean- You should give me my puppy if you care about the breed or I should get a reduction in the price. If you don't do this you are a bad breeder. (The funny thing is these are the same ones who would not give you a discount)

Being bound by the breeder.net Code of ethics. Wonder how many folks are aware of the site.

If you purchased the sire and dam you may not have information on health testing done on their immediate family.

How many items on this list do you think would be a thumbs up for a breeder?

wnalegria

Unfortunately there are people whom don't put much time or research into purchasing a pet. Unfortunately there are many bad breeders out there and people are buying from them. I guess I know of too many instances where people have purchased sickly dogs, dogs that have died, dogs that end up not being purebred and dogs not being within the standard as the owner had expected. That is one of the problems with internet sales. Many times the customer lives too far to check things out. You can run an internet site from anywhere and can make the site look great when behind the scenes things can be very bad. Here's a perfect example of a huge well known mill.
http://www.hollybellemaltese.com/index2.html
People saw beautiful maltese in the pictures..some pictures were pirated. Hollybelle had references from satisfied customers, pictures of her standing next to a "famous satisfied customer" everything "looked and sounded" good. Then people started complaining about not getting pups as promised, not getting papers or some kind of "mix-up" with the papers. People were getting sick pups, problems and complaints were coming from everywhere. This is not an isolated example..there's a whole plethora of problems out there.

LOL I wasn't advocating the site. I thot the breeder check list would be a place to start when looking for a breeder. I can't say if the site is good or bad. I saw it on a thread somewhere and went to check it out and found the breeder check list and when Kathy said we should give suggestions I thot that here is a list that just needs added to by people with real life experiences. I'm sorry I hope no one thot that the list is a rule, it's just a guide line. No one will meet all the criteria(sp?). I myself will go thru it the next time I buy a pup and pick out the points I think are most important to me. Sylvia

Hmm...I don't know if I agree with that.

My first dog (a poodle) was bought from a breeder who kept the dogs and puppies in the house with her. They were treated as pets. But in hindsight they were not very well taken care of. Our puppy had worms and fleas when we brought her home. The food we were given to feed her was adult food instead of puppy food. She was not completely up to date with her shots. Luckily after we took care of the fleas, worms and the shots, she was a healthy happy dog who lived to the ripe old age of 17 before she died of old age. Obviously the neglect of the breeder had no lasting effects.

Sydney was purchased from a breeder that I personally know. She has many dogs (4 yorkies and 2 chi's). The 2 breeding mother dogs are kept in the garage (heated) and the non-breeding dogs are kept in the house. The 2 yorkies that are non-breeding dogs used to be breeding dogs but are now too old and have been spayed, and they now live in the house. I think that she does this partially because of the mess of them going into heat, and partially becuase they act strangly when they become pregnant and have injured her other "pet" dogs in the past if not seperated. Sydney was 100% healthy when I brought her home...no fleas, or worms and she was up on her shots. My breeder had taken both the mother and the puppies to the vet many times during and after the pregnancy at the appropriate times. Both of the mothers that she owns and the stud that she uses are from very good bloodlines. Sydney has strong back and hips, and the vet forsees no back or hip problems in her future. Obviously my breeder played with and loved the puppies because Sydney practically wets herself with excitement every time we run into the breeder at the petstore.

Anyway...now that I have written a book here...my point is that I don't think that just because the breeding dogs are not kept in the home like pets, that the breeder is running a puppy mill.

Holly, sounds like your breeder was a very caring breeder. I don't consider the number of her dogs to be too many and she certainly doesn't sound like a mill.

For a questtionaire for the breeder to ask the prospective purchaser go to www.dandieyorkies.com.

questttionaire
 

The questtionaire looks great. But what if that puppy buyer want to be lies to you when he/she fills it out? The refences that the buyer gives may not be true. The door can swing both ways- The breeder may have a difficult time finding a good buyer for the puppy that so much love, effort and thought, and expense has gone into producing- the buyer may have a difficult time finding the breeder who has placed- love, effort, thought and expense into producing his/her puppy.



I would rather sell my kids to a great pet home then the person who states they want to show or breed. The number of folks who really have the true desire to show are few and far between. They find out that is is hard work and expensive.

A person who plans to breed can find out that you can have your tail docked real quick. A unplanned c-section at the emergency animal clinic can cost $1,000.00 and up. Payable right then and there ( with no payment plans). You sit and pray that you can come home with live puppies and a mom that has survived.


Wnalegria

having had a bad breeder experience, one of the biggest heart breaks of my life I have different views.

Having bought a shep from a bad breeder-.
The breeder I got my first male from was the worst of the bunch. She had disney world reference -she stated the letter was meaning they were going to solely do business with her-later found out it was just a billing issue and letter was stating she would be paid soon, letter was simple so could have meant anything. She had letters from police officers-later found out those letters were not to her but she took them from a popular kennel website and posted to hers, printed out copies,framed them and put up on her walls.She also printed out photos of police officers with their dogs, put up on her walls and passed them off as her pups. As I found out by calling every shepherd breeder & club in the state-more then once I was told I had dealt with the con of all cons, the worst breeder in the state. She seemed to have all the right answers when I went to pick out a pup, she seemed to have all the credentials-but it was all an illusion. She has a business card with a liscense number on it-through my search I found out her business liscense expired in the early 90's and she continues to use the number. People who have purchased ill dogs can sue her on a personal level but not as a breder or profesisonal-meaning most of the vet expenses are not paid for by her as the puppy lemon law has minimal liability on personal level but extensive liability on a business level.My dog was 8 weeks when I got him-he had kennel cough, fleas, tape worms, one other worm(due to resistance of the tapeworm and kennel cough cost me over $600 to cure him of these ailments he came with), a birth defect in his ear- a 3rd ear growing out of his left ear and showed extreme aggression by 10weeks old to those outside my home. I immediatly took him to puppy classes and a dog park for daily visits-the aggression was ingrained from his mother, it was something I could not fix. This was determined by a profesisonal trainer & my vet .I had to have a trainer come to my home when he was 6 months-the puppy class could not allow him to continue as his aggression was dangerous. By time he was 10months old I was afraid he would kill someone. I found out my dog was not the only one coming from her "champion show" lines that was this way, sadly alot coming from her are the same.She does put papers on dogs that did not come from the parents specified on said papers, she picks up puppies from people selling $50-$200 pups and papers them to her show lines selling them for $1500-$5000. She took alot of money to breed someones female to a certain male-the male would not perform, she bred the female to a different male, called the owners female and said the breeding was done-signed papers that the other male bred her. I learned alot after the fact, I know someone who did work for her-I know all the dirty on her. What I have learned is she is a con, being a con she knows how to make it all look good, what to say and how to act to make the sale. When I came to her place-she knew I'd be taking my son with me. She had a pup run out to me-she knows children will fall for first one they see all it takes is 2 minutes of puppy kisses and tail wags and parents will usually buy because it likes the child. She had sucker written on my head before I even went to her kennel. This info was told to me from her former employee-this is how she works.She makes sales but people do not return when looking for another dog, and people dont come to her from referrals. She has been doing this since the 80's.

Point being, I guess if someone is a con they know how to take advantage and make things work to their benefit-this can go in the direction of a bad potential owner or a bad breeder.A con knows what to say, what answers to give. My first breeder experience was a bad one that left a big hole in my heart therefor I will never again deal with people I do not know or someone I trust does not know well. If I had a better experience I guess I would have different views.