Question about yorkie development

[JESSY_RN2B]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

You say:
"Where did you get the information that "most vets learn from breeders"? I was under the impression that vets learn from scientific inquiry, research and lab work."

Scientific inquiry includes talking to professional breeders.

When I use the word breeder, I'm referring to a professional breeder whose opinion I respect. Someone who has been doing this for well over 30 years, and has done research, testing, and scientific inquiry herself. She is an expert and vets do come to her for advice. My own vet, who while not familiar with this particular breeder, told me he asks the breeders for advice all the time; this made me respect him more. You ask me if I believe in science, of coarse I do, but there is good science and bad science, and an example of bad science is when someone quotes from various publication to try to prove their point. You seem to be mixing apples with oranges here, I was talking about puppies under the age of 9 months, so all the literature you have quoted on adult dogs can automatically be ruled out.

The only thing that referred to puppies was this quote:

"3. According to the AKC (I thought you mentioned breeders as you goldent standard), "Puppies need more calories and essential nutrients than do adult dogs. Choose a food specially formulated for puppies. Puppies under six months should get three or four meals a day. They are growing rapidly, but their stomachs have limited capacity. After six months they can handle two to three meals a day."

This to me says nothing AGAINST free feeding, but mainly points out that "They are growing rapidly, but their stomachs have limited capacity". Are you supposed to empty the bowl out after every feeding? If not, this is essentially free feeding. The important point here is even this refers to puppies in general not Yorkshire terriers which have very specific needs and problems, one of which is hypoglycemia.


You say:

"Each of us, I am sure, wants to address a potential developmental problem soon enough before it turns to be obesity or hypoglycemia."

It's not clear to me that you understand what hypoglycemia is, it's a condition resulting from low blood sugar. Yorkies are prone to this especially as puppies, it not something that they grow into like obesity.

You also state:
"Dogs can develop medical problems from going too long without food. The free-feeder dog is of course not aware of needing to eat every so many hours. As a result, these dogs become candidates for things like seizures from hypoglycemia."

First statement true, but the second statement " The free-feeder dog is of course not aware of needing to eat every so many hours. As a result, these dogs become candidates for things like seizures from hypoglycemia." What??? The dog forgets to eat??? What was your source for this? While it is true a dog suffering from hypoglycemia may not eat a little Karo syrup or Nutrical applied to roof of mouth will induce him to eat. This is much more likely to happen with a food-deprived animal then one that is free fed. This is another example of bad science, mixing a true statement with an opinion and passing it off as the latest expert advice.

While it true food deprived animals learn at a much faster rate than satiated animals, since we are talking about puppies why is this so important? In the early months of their lives, they are growing so fast, doubling and tripling their weight. Everything, from the skeletal system, to muscle development including the heart muscle, as well as brain development is increasing in size. Also, this is the time their adult teeth are forming and Yorkies are prone to tooth problems, which can have devastating effects on their overall health in latter years. This is just not the time to limit their food. So what if he takes longer to become housebroken because he not eating to some prearranged schedule, I would rather have a healthy puppy that turns into a healthy dog with strong bones and teeth, a healthy heart, and good brain. This first year is the most important year of their life.

Clearly, you feel very strongly about this and I was initially just offering some advise that I had been given. You can take it or leave it, but please don't try to convince everyone that all experts believe free feeding puppies is bad. I am perplexed to as why you posted your initial question, and my main goal was just to reassure you everything sounded normal.

Nancy

[chachi]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

You say:
"Where did you get the information that "most vets learn from breeders"? I was under the impression that vets learn from scientific inquiry, research and lab work."

Scientific inquiry includes talking to professional breeders.

When I use the word breeder, I'm referring to a professional breeder whose opinion I respect. Someone who has been doing this for well over 30 years, and has done research, testing, and scientific inquiry herself. She is an expert and vets do come to her for advice. My own vet, who while not familiar with this particular breeder, told me he asks the breeders for advice all the time; this made me respect him more. You ask me if I believe in science, of coarse I do, but there is good science and bad science, and an example of bad science is when someone quotes from various publication to try to prove their point. You seem to be mixing apples with oranges here, I was talking about puppies under the age of 9 months, so all the literature you have quoted on adult dogs can automatically be ruled out.

The only thing that referred to puppies was this quote:

"3. According to the AKC (I thought you mentioned breeders as you goldent standard), "Puppies need more calories and essential nutrients than do adult dogs. Choose a food specially formulated for puppies. Puppies under six months should get three or four meals a day. They are growing rapidly, but their stomachs have limited capacity. After six months they can handle two to three meals a day."

This to me says nothing AGAINST free feeding, but mainly points out that "They are growing rapidly, but their stomachs have limited capacity". Are you supposed to empty the bowl out after every feeding? If not, this is essentially free feeding. The important point here is even this refers to puppies in general not Yorkshire terriers which have very specific needs and problems, one of which is hypoglycemia.


You say:

"Each of us, I am sure, wants to address a potential developmental problem soon enough before it turns to be obesity or hypoglycemia."

It's not clear to me that you understand what hypoglycemia is, it's a condition resulting from low blood sugar. Yorkies are prone to this especially as puppies, it not something that they grow into like obesity.

You also state:
"Dogs can develop medical problems from going too long without food. The free-feeder dog is of course not aware of needing to eat every so many hours. As a result, these dogs become candidates for things like seizures from hypoglycemia."

First statement true, but the second statement " The free-feeder dog is of course not aware of needing to eat every so many hours. As a result, these dogs become candidates for things like seizures from hypoglycemia." What??? The dog forgets to eat??? What was your source for this? While it is true a dog suffering from hypoglycemia may not eat a little Karo syrup or Nutrical applied to roof of mouth will induce him to eat. This is much more likely to happen with a food-deprived animal then one that is free fed. This is another example of bad science, mixing a true statement with an opinion and passing it off as the latest expert advice.

While it true food deprived animals learn at a much faster rate than satiated animals, since we are talking about puppies why is this so important? In the early months of their lives, they are growing so fast, doubling and tripling their weight. Everything, from the skeletal system, to muscle development including the heart muscle, as well as brain development is increasing in size. Also, this is the time their adult teeth are forming and Yorkies are prone to tooth problems, which can have devastating effects on their overall health in latter years. This is just not the time to limit their food. So what if he takes longer to become housebroken because he not eating to some prearranged schedule, I would rather have a healthy puppy that turns into a healthy dog with strong bones and teeth, a healthy heart, and good brain. This first year is the most important year of their life.

Clearly, you feel very strongly about this and I was initially just offering some advise that I had been given. You can take it or leave it, but please don't try to convince everyone that all experts believe free feeding puppies is bad. I am perplexed to as why you posted your initial question, and my main goal was just to reassure you everything sounded normal.

Nancy

[hvhung]

Obviously ChicagoSoul and Nancy have very different ideas about how to raise yorkies just like people in the world have very different ideas about how to raise human babies. Do what you feel is responsible and ethical for your babies and offer OPINIONS when asked. But please do not try to say one person is more right than another. After seeing these back and forth arguments I would like to point out a few things:

1. Vets are trained professionals using scientific methods but they do have to learn many different animal systems so it is only natural that there may be some things they do not know where a reputable long time breeder that specializes in yorkies may know.

2. However, regarding whether to free feed or to have a schedule I believe both have advantages and dissadvantages. Not one method is completely terrible or exceptionally good. Catering to the need of your dog is the most important thing. Just like some people like eating 3 big meals a day while other people have to eat 6 meals a day because their stomach can only hold so much food at once. Also keep in mind that puppies are developing and need extra nutrition for growth on top of calories to maintain everyday activity. I personally believe free feeding is a little bit more suitable but I am not against scheduled feeding in general. The reason being: activity levels for each dog is different and even the same dog will have more active and less active days. So how much to feed really is just a guideline. Counting out exactly how many pieces of kibble to eat is a bit excessive in my opinion. As long as you are feeding a well balanced healthy diet, obesity should not develop in a genetically and medically healthy puppy.

3. I work in the medical research field. I know about scientific literature because I read them everyday and I write some myself. Please know that science is ongoing, everyday there are new ideas being presented that overrule previous theories and many controversies exist because it is very hard to prove definitively one way or another. We would all like to believe that science is clear cut, either right or wrong. But the truth is it is not like that. So for the general public, citing specific articles or sources is really not necessary nor is it beneficial. Most of what either of you have cited are not original articles anyway. They are taken from people that read them and interpret them and rewrite them in their own words what THEIR understanding of the article was. So my point is: Somethings even the experts don't have definitive answers to, don't just believe every word you read or have been told and treat it like the bible. Being informed is great, but also practice common sense.

Sorry I am kinda venting because the hostility on this post sorta made me mad. But I just wanted to remind everyone how important it is to keep an open mind about new ideas. It can be as small as how to take care of your dog but it is just the same about more important stuff. We live in such a conflict driven world because too many people are too stubborn to accept anything other than what they believe in, what they were taught. SO PLEASE KEEP ＴＨＡＴ　ＩＮ MIND and let us all do our part in making this world a little bit more peaceful. Merry Christmas to everyone.

[TeddyBear]

Originally Posted by hvhung

Sorry I am kinda venting because the hostility on this post sorta made me mad. But I just wanted to remind everyone how important it is to keep an open mind about new ideas. It can be as small as how to take care of your dog but it is just the same about more important stuff. We live in such a conflict driven world because too many people are too stubborn to accept anything other than what they believe in, what they were taught. SO PLEASE KEEP ＴＨＡＴ　ＩＮ MIND and let us all do our part in making this world a little bit more peaceful. Merry Christmas to everyone.

[chachi]

I just went back and reread their posts and dont see where either Nancy or Chicago Soul were being hostile They were just debating opinions and people do that all the time on here

[ChicagoSoul]

I apologize to Nancy and everybody who was particularly offended by my replies. I do not mean to teach anybody anything especially in the field where I am a student myself. At the same time, it is often the case that people on this forum or on the other forums turn a question into a major debate, and a major debate into personal assaults.

My question was really simple. It had to do with what is considered to be a normal weight gain for a given yorkie puppy as she grows from the week fourteen on to a week fifteen, and then sixteen. The reason I asked the question was because I wanted to make sure that my vet was wrong the first time he weighted my puppy because the weight difference cited between the first and the second appointment was, to say the least, unrealistic. To put the question into content, I gave underlying facts.

That was it. I was not asked of Nancy's or other people's evaluation of my particular parenting style as well as I haven't asked about whether or not I should free feed my puppy.

I am very happy with the way my puppy progresses in her development. Unlike some other people whose posts I read on the forum, my Manya has never barked, has never exhibited signs of aggression toward people, has never begged for food from me or my guests, has never been possessive of her food when I wanted to share her treats with other dogs, has never been picky about her food, has never been antisocial, has never been lonely or upset when left alone without my supervision, has never chewed on anything but her toys, and so forth which causes me to believe that I am not such a bad mommy afterwards.

I took my puppy to classes last Thursday, and she behaved much more grown up than all of the other puppies combined. She was also very perceptive to everything that the teacher showed us, which also suggests to me that I must be doing something right to raise my puppy the way she is.

As a general rule, I don't appreciate unsubstantiated judgement calls about me and the wellbeing of my puppy in my household from a person who is neither a breeder nor is a trained veterinarian.

I normally try to ignore comments such as "you clearly don't know what hypoglycemia is" or "your puppy will be aggressive and possessive of her food because you food deprive her" because it is nobody's business that I do know what hypoglycemia is in particular as well as I know what science is in general because I have a degree in biology and chemistry. It is nobody's business that I spent a good chunk of my life studying what science is and performing scientific experiments, including those in anatomy and physiology, where I had to dissect a dog and a cat, and study their organs. It should also be nobody's concern that I've studied and read many primary and secondary sources to know the difference between the two when I spent years of my life in Berkeley law school studying law and then practicing it.

I don't need to be calmed down and I do not need to be explained by people who vets are and what is the difference between their training and that of a breeder. I do not appreciate these paternalistic remarks.

Give me a break. I don't know about other people's lives, but my life is pretty normal and steady. We don't live in a conflict driven world unless we drive our own conflict. Let's not project our own issues and problems onto everybody else. Let me assure you that, from every point of view, I would love to be in my dog's position and have in my disposal everything that she has or will have in the future.

[JESSY_RN2B]

Originally Posted by ChicagoSoul

I apologize to Nancy and everybody who was particularly offended by my replies. I do not mean to teach anybody anything especially in the field where I am a student myself. At the same time, it is often the case that people on this forum or on the other forums turn a question into a major debate, and a major debate into personal assaults.

My question was really simple. It had to do with what is considered to be a normal weight gain for a given yorkie puppy as she grows from the week fourteen on to a week fifteen, and then sixteen. The reason I asked the question was because I wanted to make sure that my vet was wrong the first time he weighted my puppy because the weight difference cited between the first and the second appointment was, to say the least, unrealistic. To put the question into content, I gave underlying facts.

That was it. I was not asked of Nancy's or other people's evaluation of my particular parenting style as well as I haven't asked about whether or not I should free feed my puppy.

I am very happy with the way my puppy progresses in her development. Unlike some other people whose posts I read on the forum, my Manya has never barked, has never exhibited signs of aggression toward people, has never begged for food from me or my guests, has never been possessive of her food when I wanted to share her treats with other dogs, has never been picky about her food, has never been antisocial, has never been lonely or upset when left alone without my supervision, has never chewed on anything but her toys, and so forth which causes me to believe that I am not such a bad mommy afterwards.

I took my puppy to classes last Thursday, and she behaved much more grown up than all of the other puppies combined. She was also very perceptive to everything that the teacher showed us, which also suggests to me that I must be doing something right to raise my puppy the way she is.

As a general rule, I don't appreciate unsubstantiated judgement calls about me and the wellbeing of my puppy in my household from a person who is neither a breeder nor is a trained veterinarian.

I normally try to ignore comments such as "you clearly don't know what hypoglycemia is" or "your puppy will be aggressive and possessive of her food because you food deprive her" because it is nobody's business that I do know what hypoglycemia is in particular as well as I know what science is in general because I have a degree in biology and chemistry. It is nobody's business that I spent a good chunk of my life studying what science is and performing scientific experiments, including those in anatomy and physiology, where I had to dissect a dog and a cat, and study their organs. It should also be nobody's concern that I've studied and read many primary and secondary sources to know the difference between the two when I spent years of my life in Berkeley law school studying law and then practicing it.

I don't need to be calmed down and I do not need to be explained by people who vets are and what is the difference between their training and that of a breeder. I do not appreciate these paternalistic remarks.

Give me a break. I don't know about other people's lives, but my life is pretty normal and steady. We don't live in a conflict driven world unless we drive our own conflict. Let's not project our own issues and problems onto everybody else. Let me assure you that, from every point of view, I would love to be in my dog's position and have in my disposal everything that she has or will have in the future.

I am so glad that you are very satisfied with your pup's development

Just wanted to mention (with all due respect), that we should all keep in mind that this is a public forum where people form all walks of life, educational levels, ages, experiences, opinions.........post. I think everyone was very kind and didn't in any way, shape or form mean to 'insult your intelligence or reprimand you.

Since you "don't appreciate unsubstantiated judgement calls about yourself and the wellbeing of your puppy in your household from a person who is neither a breeder nor is a trained veterinarian",.............I kindly suggest you direct all your future questions to your pup's veterinarian, pup's breeder or other trained professional. Another suggestion would be possibly to post your concerns/questions in the 'breeder's section of the site'.
I know there are some breeders who mostly post and frequent that area

Thank you for your input and best wishes to you and your pup

[ChicagoSoul]

It's getting a little tiring to argue back and forth. So, let's just say that this is going to be my last and final comment on this particular issue. There is a difference, my dear Jessy RN2B, between asking a question and soliciting an evaluation. I would also like to suggest to you, just as kindly as you did, to mind your own business with respect to where and whether I am to post my subsequent posts. I would surely have your candidacy in mind if I have any questions in this regard in the future.

[chachi]

Originally Posted by chachi

I just went back and reread their posts and dont see where either Nancy or Chicago Soul were being hostile They were just debating opinions and people do that all the time on here

I take that back. Now somebodys getting hostile

[JESSY_RN2B]

Originally Posted by ChicagoSoul

It's getting a little tiring to argue back and forth. So, let's just say that this is going to be my last and final comment on this particular issue. There is a difference, my dear Jessy RN2B, between asking a question and soliciting an evaluation. I would also like to suggest to you, just as kindly as you did, to mind your own business with respect to where and whether I am to post my subsequent posts. I would surely have your candidacy in mind if I have any questions in this regard in the future.

Honestly, I believe anyone and everyone can clearly read that the only one arguing here is you

You seem to be on the 'edge of your chair' and just ready to snap at anyone........I am so sorry for whatever may be bothering you so much. (I truly am).

I have no desire to 'argue' with anyone. I am quite a VERY happy YT member and will continue to be

Thank you kindly for your suggestion though.

[hasrv4fun]

Originally Posted by ChicagoSoul

That's the thing. She has never lost a pound. We took her to the vet the second day of her arrival. What I think is happening is that her breeder was right. She was slightly less than two pounds and just gained a couple of ounces after two weeks. Her first weight was not the right figure. The assistant made a mistake.

On the issue of having food constantly available, I absolutely disagree with you. All the literature on the subject and most if not all of the vets suggest a schedule for both developmental as well as training purposes. Every vet I know says that a puppy needs to be reasonably hungry for every meal.

Animals don't have a sense of fullness when they see food. They eat as much as they can handle before they are tired to eat or before they are interrupted to do something else. It's similar to humans, in order to stay healthy, we need to have portion control, schedule as well as healthy food and plenty of exercise.

It is similar with new born human babies. They need a schedule.

You should do whatever you think is the best, of course but modern day veterinary science is not in agreement on that. Depending on the size, age as well as level of activity, each puppy should eat 3 or 4 times a day. The size of their portion varies also depending on those criteria. At the same time, there must be a form of control in the portion and schedule at all times.

As a breeder for more years than so many of you have lived I want to say that this is pure BULL ____!!!

counting the puppies pieces of food as opposed to free feeding is probably going to lead to more problems than you can count. Training doesn't hinge on feeding amount or schedule.

A puppy or dog is not like a person and absolutely will not overeat if given good nutrition - it will gain weight and get fat only if fed the same way we humans eat -that is to say that they are given food that does not meet their needs nutritionally.

Puppies should either (preferably ) be free fed or at least all they desire at feeding times throughout the day and fresh water available 24/7.

Just my thoughts but you certainly wouldn't put 6 cheerios on a babys plate and expect it to be fed with that and you can't see what your puppy needs either.

[I Love Bailey]

[QUOTE=ChicagoSoul]Here is the reason of my asking to put the question into content.

At Manya's first visit to the vet, which was when she was 14 weeks, she weighted according to his assistant 1.38 lbs. It was kind of bizarre because her breeder said that she was almost 2 lbs when we got her.

She was on the strict schedule and I would normally give her 25 pieces of dry wood, which amounts to 1/8 of a cup three times a day. She would devour her food. My boyfriend unilaterally decided that Manya wants more. So, he started giving her probably double, maybe a little less (like 40-45). She would eat most of it, sometimes leaving some.

When I took her to the vet (her vet was out on vacation and she was seen by a very young vet instead, which I had no clue would happen) two weeks after our first appointment, at 16 weeks, for Rabies shot, she weighted, according to a different assistant, 2lbs. I almost floored. It would make her gain 0.62 lbs in just two weeks (almost third of her original weight). I said, "No way."


I am just wondering if by "dry wood" you mean dry dog food? I have never heard it refered to as that.
You did come to this forum asking for opinions and you will get opinions from YT Members.
I have a 5lbs, 20 mo old female who is healthy and active. I keep dry food down for her at all times, somedays she eats it all, other days she picks at it. My dogs kibble is so small 25 pieces would not be very much!
Just like there are days I am hungry and others days I am not. I am 5'8", 125lbs, so I am not overweight either. I fed both my children on demand when they were infants. They too are healthy and not overweight.
You seem to be very concerned about your dog gaining weight, I would think at 16 weeks you would want her to gain weight. Maybe I just read it wrong?
Your dog will continue to gain weight/grow until well after 1 year of age. Yorkies are generally energetic and burn off their calorie intake.
I just would not want somebody to tell me that I couldn't eat, I have to wait until a certain time if I am hungry now. I tend to get a bit grumpy!

[donnarod]

Originally Posted by JESSY_RN2B

Honestly, I believe anyone and everyone can clearly read that the only one arguing here is you

You seem to be on the 'edge of your chair' and just ready to snap at anyone........I am so sorry for whatever may be bothering you so much. (I truly am).

I have no desire to 'argue' with anyone. I am quite a VERY happy YT member and will continue to be

Thank you kindly for your suggestion though.

You guys need to settle down and enjoy.

[donnarod]

[QUOTE=I Love Bailey]

Originally Posted by ChicagoSoul

Here is the reason of my asking to put the question into content.

At Manya's first visit to the vet, which was when she was 14 weeks, she weighted according to his assistant 1.38 lbs. It was kind of bizarre because her breeder said that she was almost 2 lbs when we got her.

She was on the strict schedule and I would normally give her 25 pieces of dry wood, which amounts to 1/8 of a cup three times a day. She would devour her food. My boyfriend unilaterally decided that Manya wants more. So, he started giving her probably double, maybe a little less (like 40-45). She would eat most of it, sometimes leaving some.

When I took her to the vet (her vet was out on vacation and she was seen by a very young vet instead, which I had no clue would happen) two weeks after our first appointment, at 16 weeks, for Rabies shot, she weighted, according to a different assistant, 2lbs. I almost floored. It would make her gain 0.62 lbs in just two weeks (almost third of her original weight). I said, "No way."


I am just wondering if by "dry wood" you mean dry dog food? I have never heard it refered to as that.
You did come to this forum asking for opinions and you will get opinions from YT Members.
I have a 5lbs, 20 mo old female who is healthy and active. I keep dry food down for her at all times, somedays she eats it all, other days she picks at it. My dogs kibble is so small 25 pieces would not be very much!
Just like there are days I am hungry and others days I am not. I am 5'8", 125lbs, so I am not overweight either. I fed both my children on demand when they were infants. They too are healthy and not overweight.
You seem to be very concerned about your dog gaining weight, I would think at 16 weeks you would want her to gain weight. Maybe I just read it wrong?
Your dog will continue to gain weight/grow until well after 1 year of age. Yorkies are generally energetic and burn off their calorie intake.
I just would not want somebody to tell me that I couldn't eat, I have to wait until a certain time if I am hungry now. I tend to get a bit grumpy!

Settle down and ENJOY, You guys must be bored.