Breeding Ordeal

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Lacy's Mom

Cancel the appointment. My little boy is a little over a year now and still is unneutered. He is really willing to please so if he marks I just spank him and tell him no - it's really gotten a lot better - not any different than housebreaking in my opinion. One good thing is that the marking doesn't soak all the way into the carpet pad and comes up easily with a product called Get Serious I got at Petsmart. Also, try belly bands. They are a band that goes around the waist and you place a feminine pad in them. I haven't bred my male, yet, so I don't know how much worse it will get, but I can always neuter later if it's unbearable.

It won't matter later. Once they have been bred they will always mark. In fact I believe, once they have started marking they will always mark. If you neuter them before they start then they are less likely to do it.

[Kim000001]

My little boy marked (even marked me once) My vet said if I got him nuetered this would stop, so I did, and it did not stop. So I use belly bands. I put a panty liner inside and just change it frequently during the day.

[troubletb]

This friendly thread, has become a monster. Odie's mom just wanted some suggestions and thoughts. I gave her mine and you gave her yours. Now she needs to make the informed decision as to have him fixed or not. I don't agree with some of your opinions, but that is just my feelings. When I bought my Petey, I looked for months for the "right " dog. I bought him strickly for breeding and I made sure he was the best I could afford. Breeding is not a simple decision.

Even though Odie's mom's parents are breeders, doesn't mean they breed Yorkies. Yorkies are a special breed. They are small and some what fragile. Lets say I bred shepards and since I was a knowledgable breeder, does that mean I should start breeding yorkies.

My point is Odie's mom isn't asking us to make the decision. She is only asking us for some input. What she does after that is her choice.

[megan_kat22]

I'm not real big on breeding, so if you don't want to mess with the marking, or have to worry about things associated with breeding my vote is to fix the dogs and give another one a home. This is just my opinion, I have a super soft spot for homeless dogs, so I couldn't really help myself. Good luck with your decision!

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by elegntorchid

I don't think the post was a question for permision to breed, just on dealing with marking. And as stated the parents have been breeders for years. If there was a question on the person ability to breed it could have been put in a nicer way.

Hitting a dog is never an option, they don't understand. The point of the dog marking was that it was being kept intact for breeding. You can't split the problem. I think the marking of territory has to be addressed when you are changing from a pet Yorkie to a breeding one. Whether it be male or female, there should be some knowledge on behaviour on the intact animal and the management required to go with it. It is far easier to have a pet than a breeding dog or bitch. If you think dogs are bad for marking territory, wait til you have to deal with a female that marks territory. You can't treat the intact dog or bitch like you would a pet. They think with hormones if they are not altered.
On the matter of knowing what you are doing when breeding, I am not the Yorkie police, I am just asking that people think about what they about to do if they are getting into breeding and do it in an informed manner. Why? As a pet groomer, I am the one owners cry on my shoulder when they bought a puppy from someone who didn't know anything about genetic problems, bred anyway, and my grooming client bought their baby only to have it die at a young age or end up with astronimical vet bills to keep it going with some quality of life -- With no guarantees that were going to be honoured by the breeder. Some did get healthy puppies thank goodness.
I am not saying this is what is happening in this particular thread, I am pointing out caution.
What about you? You say you have a stud dog? If you are offering him for stud services do you know about his background and what about the owners of any females he is breeding? What are their guarantees? Are the owners of either the bitch or dog that produced the litter keeping in touch with the puppy buyers to see how these pups are doing and if there have been any problems with health either genetic, congenital, involving heart, kidneys, knees etc.
Yes, I get a little short a little sharp a little impatient, because I see what can happen far too many times. I end up crying over the loss of that pet puppy right along with the owner, because the puppy was produced without much knowledge or thought or followup.
Yes even in the best breeding programs, something can go wrong. But a responsible breeder tries to be as sure as possible of what they are breeding in the first place and will provide and honour guarantees.

[elegntorchid]

troubletb: i don't know if that was a response to what i said or not, but i was not responding to your suggestions.


Lorraine. I felt that what you had to say could have been put in a nice way. That post came across as very snobby. Odielover, like troubletb said came to ask for suggestions on marking. Just mentioning in the process the consideration of breeding. I don't know if the parents know anything about yorkies or not, but we should not assume that they don't or that they are not researching and learning. Just because someone comtemplates breeding does not mean that they have no intention of learning what to do before hand, or that they will follow through with it. They are after all coming to a forum asking questions.

I find it upsetting when people come here to gain knowledge and information and people automatically stick their claws out. Every person here who is a breeder was not at some point and started someplace, yet many come across as if "how dare you". They seem to think they have the patent on breeding yorkies and assume that everyone else is just "hired help butting into their conversation."This site is here so we can help one another and support this breed, if no one agrees with that then oh well.


(before anyone freaks I did not say every breeder, just some)


I am sorry if this came across as harsh, but I am just getting frustrated with this attitude.

[Breeze]

Originally Posted by Lorraine

Hitting a dog is never an option, they don't understand. The point of the dog marking was that it was being kept intact for breeding. You can't split the problem. I think the marking of territory has to be addressed when you are changing from a pet Yorkie to a breeding one. Whether it be male or female, there should be some knowledge on behaviour on the intact animal and the management required to go with it. It is far easier to have a pet than a breeding dog or bitch. If you think dogs are bad for marking territory, wait til you have to deal with a female that marks territory. You can't treat the intact dog or bitch like you would a pet. They think with hormones if they are not altered.
On the matter of knowing what you are doing when breeding, I am not the Yorkie police, I am just asking that people think about what they about to do if they are getting into breeding and do it in an informed manner. Why? As a pet groomer, I am the one owners cry on my shoulder when they bought a puppy from someone who didn't know anything about genetic problems, bred anyway, and my grooming client bought their baby only to have it die at a young age or end up with astronimical vet bills to keep it going with some quality of life -- With no guarantees that were going to be honoured by the breeder. Some did get healthy puppies thank goodness.
I am not saying this is what is happening in this particular thread, I am pointing out caution.
What about you? You say you have a stud dog? If you are offering him for stud services do you know about his background and what about the owners of any females he is breeding? What are their guarantees? Are the owners of either the bitch or dog that produced the litter keeping in touch with the puppy buyers to see how these pups are doing and if there have been any problems with health either genetic, congenital, involving heart, kidneys, knees etc.
Yes, I get a little short a little sharp a little impatient, because I see what can happen far too many times. I end up crying over the loss of that pet puppy right along with the owner, because the puppy was produced without much knowledge or thought or followup.
Yes even in the best breeding programs, something can go wrong. But a responsible breeder tries to be as sure as possible of what they are breeding in the first place and will provide and honour guarantees.

Great post!!

[elegntorchid]

I don't offer my male for stud service!!! I prefer not to risk him getting a VD, even if someone has their female checked for any. And to your question yes i do have his pedigree information and health information. And the person I purchased him from has been a Breeder for 15+ plus years. She is also mentoring me in my goal to eventually breed my own personal female that I also have all the information on. And yes she does keep up with her puppies including the ones from my dog. And she has a wonderful reputation in breeding and showing.

So, AGAIN, do not just assume that no one else has a clue what they are doing!!!!!!!

If you are simply concerned about the breed and health, then you could have kindly offered up that if they are serious about breeding their are certain steps and precautions to be aware of. If I came and asked a question for the first time and someone came at me that way I would never come back. And in turn the people who do have vast knowledge on this breed loose the opportunity to share that with someone else. Then that person may just go out and maybe breed, when had someone shared maybe they would not breed at all.

[Lorraine]

I am sorry you are missing my point. So I will try to keep it short point form.
1. I am trying to say, know what you are doing before breeding, know your lines, pedigrees, potential health issues, how to avoid them, be responsible for them if they do occur etc.
2. When you have an intact dog or bitch, behaviour will be different than an altered one. If you are going to keep it intact, you have to be aware of that and know how to manage it. If you own the bitch, you could end up with a neighbours intact male any breed dog or mix, camping on your doorstep while she is in season. Heck years ago a neighbour down the road had an intact chihuahua. New neighbours across the street moved in with an intact male rottweiler, who left huge gouges in their front door when the chi was in season. I don't know what the outcome of that one was, I moved. If you own an intact male you can also have a little escape artist with the potential of getting injured or killed if he gets out of the yard having gotten a whiff of a female somewhere in heat. Plus the territory marking behaviour of either sex.
3. Number of years breeding doesn't mean it is a good breeder, anyone contemplating getting into breeding and working with someone still has to do their homework. I know someone breeding 20+ years and still knows nothing and has sold a lot of health problem puppies and puppies that grew up to not look like Yorkies. And 'helped' a few others get into breeding. Not a good scenario.
That's all I am saying or trying to say do your homework and be aware of the pitfalls not only in breeding but also in managing your intact Yorkie.
Glad you found someone to work with. Hope it works out for you.

[diva pup]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

Before you hit your dog, remember they have teeth that could easily damage the nerves and tissue in our hands, BUT they do not bite us because they love us.

[lisatodd]

Originally Posted by elegntorchid

troubletb: i don't know if that was a response to what i said or not, but i was not responding to your suggestions.


Lorraine. I felt that what you had to say could have been put in a nice way. That post came across as very snobby. Odielover, like troubletb said came to ask for suggestions on marking. Just mentioning in the process the consideration of breeding. I don't know if the parents know anything about yorkies or not, but we should not assume that they don't or that they are not researching and learning. Just because someone comtemplates breeding does not mean that they have no intention of learning what to do before hand, or that they will follow through with it. They are after all coming to a forum asking questions.

I find it upsetting when people come here to gain knowledge and information and people automatically stick their claws out. Every person here who is a breeder was not at some point and started someplace, yet many come across as if "how dare you". They seem to think they have the patent on breeding yorkies and assume that everyone else is just "hired help butting into their conversation."This site is here so we can help one another and support this breed, if no one agrees with that then oh well.


(before anyone freaks I did not say every breeder, just some)


I am sorry if this came across as harsh, but I am just getting frustrated with this attitude.

i feel the same way

[MyTrixie143]

Originally Posted by OdieLover

Here is my question. I have Odie, who is 3 1/2 lbs @ 7 months and AKC. He is the cutest baby boy I have ever seen. I am getting a female in August who will AKC. Odie is marking and it is driving me crazy. I think the best thing for me would to be to neuter him and then spay the female. However, I feel like that is such a waster of papers. He would make the greatest puppies. I have never bred before but I grew up my whole life with my mom breeding. She is still breeding to this day. I know it is hard work. My dad wants a yorkie and why not add another to our family? I am a bit confused, esp. since his neuter appointment is scheduled for May 16th. Any help would be great.

Before you consider breeding him, have all the necessary tests taken on him to make sure he would make good healthy puppies. Such as genetic or hereditary diseases, disformities, etc.. Secondally, as far as marking goes, just get a mark out wrap for your dog to use in the house. They are like diapers for male dogs to keep them from spraying or marking everything in the house. You can find them at www.dog.com just type in mark out wraps in the search box. I hope this helps. Good luck.

[Lorraine]

I'll give it one more try. If you don't get it this time, I give up.
GENETIC TESTING TELLS YOU NOTHING ABOUT LIVER SHUNT OR LEGGE-PERTHES. Your male or female can be a carrier for genetic diseases but do not exhibit it and at this time, there is NO TESTING to read the genetic code to ascertain if it is there in your dog. When mated with another carrier the resulting progeny can have the potential to have the disease and will exhibit it with age.
Many genetic problems will manifest at 5 - 8 months but not always. Some show up at 2 or 3 years.
Genetic testing for liver shunt or legge-Perthes on the parents WILL NOT tell you if they can possibly throw puppies with LS or LP.
You can do hip xrays or Cerf for hips and eyes but again, not until the parents are 2 years and 4 years respectively.
The best way to start is KNOW YOUR LINES you are getting into and know whether or not those lines, dogs, bitches have produced LS or LP.

[xDaisy's_Mummyx]

Just remember if you do neuter him you cant change your mind after! If it was me i would atleast breed him once then you can decide if you want to carry on or not. Its totally diffrent taking on the responsabilty yourself than watching your parents doing it. Let us know what you decide to do xx

[rox626]

From readiing this whole thread, I'd like to add my thoughts. Maybe Odielover was just asking a simple question about marking but Lorraine had some very interesting comments. Sometimes people don't know much so they don't even know what questions they should be asking. These posts are also read by many different people so even if more information is given than is asked for, someone else may gain from it.

Tail docking and spanking are two different issues. The docking is done at a very young age. Maybe it is cruel but have you ever seen the website that supports it? http://www.cdb.org/case4dock.htm In some working dogs that are normally docked but weren't horrible injuries ocurred. Amputation was needed which is a lot more painful than the docking of new born tails.

Punishing your dog for marking may just make him more sneaky. Marking and spraying are habits and aren't necessarily broken just by neutering.