Puppy selection question.
 

Hi Everyone,

I've been on the waitlist, I've waited patiently with my breeder and in January two lovely boys were born. I'm at the top of the list which means I get to choose between them; however, it's becoming harder and harder to pick.

Here's some info:
- Born Jan 7th.

- I see them by zoom every week and she sends pictures

- I wanted the larger of the two, hoping that one would finish larger (understanding that may not be the result). Well every week they are clocking in at identical sizes, so we don't have a front runner that way.

- They are both very healthy, eating well, eyes are open and they are squirmy and curious so no apparent differences in personality yet.

- While I don't need to rush to pick, I do need to pick before we run the liver test and DNA testing, which will be before I can see them in person (she's in a different province so I'm flying in to pick him up - he's flying back with me in carry-on, NOT cargo).

- The only apparent difference right now she has said that one has a rounder head and will likely have more of a "baby doll face". The little guys were too squirmy last week for me to be able to see this difference. Can anyone clarify what that looks like? I think I know what she means. If I'm correct my old dog Harley (in my profile pic) did not have this head shape. So I'm leaning towards picking the other one.

I'm going to talk to her some more Wednesday but I figured I would check and see if anyone has any thoughts. Are there any other qualities I should be looking for? I was hoping size or health would make the decision for me, but these guys are near identical so it may just have to come down to aesthetics.

I can understand needing to select one before seeing them.
I personally would not select the one that has the baby doll face, lets see what others opinions are on that.

I really hate to "rain on your parade" but I need to say this.
We all want our babies ASAP, the sooner the better.
This puppy will be 8 weeks old when you get him. He will be a wild child and a hard mouth nipper. It is best for a puppy to stay with momma and litter mate until they are 12 to 13 weeks old.
In this time momma teaches the babies that hard mouth nipping and wild rough house playing is unacceptable. Those 4 to 5 extra weeks with the momma is the training process.
For the breeder it's a lot more work to keep puppies those extra weeks.
A 12 / 13 week old puppy is a bit less wild then an 8 week old pup.
Just throwing this out to you.

I will say all of my puppies were 8 weeks old when I got them, that was wayyyyy before I joined YT and learned it is best to get them at 12 to 13 weeks old.
Me, I love the wild child puppies, it is a lot of work training the nipping at your heels out of them, and hard mouth nipping your hands.

Good luck in your selection, it is going to be a roll of the dice.

Yes I totally understand on the 8 weeks. They'll be a day shy of 9 weeks the day I pick him up which is not ideal.

There has been a family emergency in the US and she has to leave as soon as she can, we have discussed all of the options and that's the only reason he's coming home that early. Otherwise we would run the risk of border crossing issues and quarantine and she doesn't know how long she will have to be there for. With all of the issues at the Canadian border regarding vaccines and testing the whole situation just sucks.

So no parade raining here, I'm not a fan of it, but it's the best of the options available.

This whole pandemic just sucks. Just puppy proof the areas the puppy will be in. Get cable wires up high and out of wild childs reach. Puppies are such a blast even if they are a lot of work, I miss those puppy days.

Yeah this week I began the puppy proofing. We have floating stairs so I've had to buy crates, gates and fences and get creative. That's mainly why I'm hoping for a bigger boy. If he finishes below 5lb I don't know if he can ever safely do the stairs (my last boy was 3.5-4lb). Mom was 6.5lb so hopefully he gets mommy's genes.

Fortunately we just moved in so we don't have a lot of stuff. We opted not to buy area rugs until he's house trained. I've been hiding cords as we install stuff. So now I just need to buy everything else. I don't regret donating most of Harley's stuff back then, but man it's expensive starting from scratch. But Zarco is going to be a spoiled little boy.

I've done training and worked with rescues so I'm going to keep a close eye on his behaviour and body language in those first few weeks. Need to train my boyfriend how to handle the nibbles and naughtyness. (He has never had the pleasure of being peed on by puppy). But I used to love trick training and the foundation of positive reward stuff can be started from day 1 as long as you don't play games that stress joints.

It's good that you have training experience, I think training the BF is going to be harder than training the puppy lol. Seems you have it all covered.
I hear ya on the expense of purchasing everything after giving away everything from your past pup. I went through the same thing.
My vet gifted me a 2 1/2 year old surrendered pup 6 weeks after I had to put down my 17 year old Matese. I swore no more dogs, losing them are just too painful. I donated everything from all my past babies and Matese, I had nothing dog related in my house.
So now I had this little boy and not even a ball for him. So off I went on a shopping spree. Not knowing what kind of toys he liked I bought one of almost every type of toy. Thankfully no gates were needed nor crates, he is not a tiny boy, he's a teapot weighing in at 12 pounds. I adore the smaller yorkies, all my past yorkies were big so no fear of jumping off furniture and injuring their legs.
You are going to be just fine with this puppy.

Just so you know liver testing can not be done until 16 weeks of age. I'm a bit curious why you are doing DNA testing?

About the puppy coming home before 12 weeks you need to be prepared for having to teach bite inhabitation. Socialization becomes extremely important when you get a puppy that young because they didn't spend the time fully learning to socialize with their siblings. Separation anxiety can also be a huge issue in puppies taken away early. Also you need to keep an extra eye out for hypoglycemia. Luckily the two of mine I got at 9 and 8 weeks I had other dogs they could socialize with and teach them doggy stuff as well as we did puppy classes. Both have separation anxiety issues with the first one we were his 3rd home a 9 weeks so not sure if that played into it or not and with the second one at 8 weeks she was a pandemic puppy so I was always around and not sure if that played into it too or not. I also suggest one of the stuffed dog things they sell that has the heartbeat, those are great and they sell them almost every where Petsmart, Petco, even amazon has them and I think they are called snuggle puppies maybe. I got lucky both mine ended up bigger Joey was 3 pounds at 9 weeks and he is supposed to be 14 pounds (he chubbed up a bit this winter to 15 pounds) and Dixie was 3 pounds at 8 weeks and is now 12 pounds.

I am also curious about the DNA testing.

I would be most concerned with what DNA testing the breeder has done.

One thing I didn't see you mention is a contract. I would be checking out the breeder's contract thoroughly regarding health. I don't know who the breeder is but there are some red flags here in IMO. As soon as I see the words "baby doll" I cringe. I have seen so many of them have major health issues.

As Lovetodream88 mentioned, bite inhibition is something you may have to help this puppy with. I had a foster come to me very young and that was the one thing I had to work with.....a breeder suggested growling at her when she bit me....LOL I laughed but it did work! She said you must be prepared to be the mama dog.

Good luck!

Yorkshire Terrier breed standard here:

About Yorkies

My last yorkie had 3 separate severe health conditions all of which the vet told me were genetic. I had thought I did my research and was wrong. I also knew the owner of his sibling and half sibling and they all had serious issues, they also died far too young.

While the parents of this guy are all tested she offered it as a comfort more than anything. The breeder has a full health guarantee, but for me I will feel better knowing we checked as much as we could first. This test checks for 200+ markers.

Yeah I'm a lawyer so I have reviewed the contract with a fine tooth comb... the baby doll thing is not something she breeds for. it was her best way to describe the shape of head and was sent via text. We chatted today and turns out they both now have the same shaped head this week anyway.

Hey all, my notifications didn't work, so I missed some of these...

So... I saw them tonight!!!!! They both look ADORABLE. This week the heads have changed so they are no longer different in the head shape, they are also only off by half an ounce in size. She said she can barely tell the two apart.

I'm working on remembering how to attach photos... I will post as soon as I re-read the post on it...

Here are the two side by side

Drumroll......

Meet Zarco!

Drumroll... Meet Zarco!

If you are referring to something like the embark test only a few of those actually work in yorkies which is one of the reasons I have not gotten it done. You can’t do the liver testing until 16 weeks either so the breeder won’t be able to do that test. Here is a link to the recommended tests that should be done before breeding https://www.ofa.org/recommended-tests?breed=YT

It is the embark test but the breeder one that she's doing not the owner one. Im curious about it not working on Yorkies as my understanding is they are always updating the database. I had run it by my friend who used to be a vet tech and she didn't see any issues with.

Re the liver test I've never heard anything about age on that, my vet tech friend was the one who suggested that is the most important one. I'd like some more information on that if you have it.

Just the breeder using the term is odd to me, but hey, it's your money, your choice and your puppy; and I hope he is healthy and you have many wonderful years with him.

Good that you reviewed the contract but major concern to me is relying on a vet tech for information. If I were you, before you totally commit, I would take a long look at the tests you say the breeder has done on her breeding pair. It could save you money....and heartbreak in the future. Often the congenital things that these pups get don't show up until later in life.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I would not even consider getting a puppy from a breeder who didn't do the OFA testing.

The thing about Vet techs is the majority are not certified and learn and train on the job. While they are very important they don’t always know everything. I took vet assistant classes and still knew more then some of the techs I have had at vet offices in the past.

Liver test. The liver test should not be done before 16 weeks because bile acid concentrations may be falsely lower in puppies under 16 weeks.

The embark test. While they say they can test for a huge amount of genetic markers science has not found that many genetic markers in every breed and probably are adding numbers that are not accurate and correct. You have to keep in mind that they are trying to sell a product. Here is a link to what genetic markers can be found in testing for yorkies there are 16 and only 4 are health related. https://vgl.ucdavis.edu/breed/yorkshire-terrier?page=0 You also may want to take a look at complaints of the embark test by googling. I had an actual scientist tell me the test was a waste of money a few years ago.

This is a great read about liver disease in yorkies:

http://www.theyorkshireterrierclubof...re_9_16_13.pdf

Here are a couple of posts from a valued member of YT who is sadly no longer with us. I miss Phil SO much....he would have contributed to this thread.... maybe this will help even though it is from a few years ago:

https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/4764985-post4.html

https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/4765000-post6.html

OMGoodness they are just adorable.

Yeah I couldn't pick, seeing they were identical on all other fronts. I let my boyfriend choose, he's never had a dog before so I let him have the final say.

Sadly I’m not sure that our knowledge is wanted here……. Oh well we tried and that’s all we can do.

It was requested by the OP and given. I have learned so much in my years online and on this forum. There's often more going on than one knows and when sharing my experience i do so understanding that even if it isn't appreciated by one, it may help someone I don't even know. I've had so many people join this forum for the express purpose of thanking me or asking for more information.

Yep very true, I forgot sometime yt even comes up on google when certain things are searched.

I always think of that! It's good to keep in mind because if only one person learns it's a win. Education is the only way to stop the suffering of poorly bred dogs. Sometimes I feel like giving up because it seems hopeless and perhaps it is....but I keep trying for the dogs and people.

I have read everything you've said. However, I've been balancing my own anxiety. I've already paid for the testing so there's no going back in that. If it works it works.

When I was looking for this breeder I called every breeder in Ontario, Manitoba, and Saskatchewan. This is the only one of two that passed without major warning. The other moved back overseas before my name came up on the list. I spent the last two years watching for a rescue Yorkie with no luck. I cant fly further than that due to medical reasons and i knew a breeder who allowed shipping was a red flag, and I would never ship a dog in cargo. So I knew I needed to be able to go get him and fly him as carry on with me.

While I understand the baby doll face comments, I added it was a text message when I asked if they are still same size. We couldn't get video to work that week. She at no point used that term beforehand.

I have looked into the liver testing and haven't decided what to do with that. I usually talk to her on Wednesdays. I'll ask.

I understand everyone's desire to help but I'm at a loss what else to do in this situation. I've reached out to many references and even asked a few other breeders and she seems well respected and her dogs are healthy.

I don't know if she's done all of the OAF testing but I recognize some of the things on the list and we've discussed them.

I used to be a very active member when Harley was around and while I recognize the need to inform, every post I've posted this week has had a lot of negative tones and harsh comments. I appreciate the ones that provide links so I can do my own research. I was just very excited that my little guy is finally almost here and wanted to see if some of my old friends were still around here.

You think the comments are harsh because you don't like what you are being told. There are SO many red flags but you don't want to see them. I said in an earlier post that I hope your puppy lives a long, healthy life and trust me I want that SO much and it very well may happen. Even bad breeders have puppies that are not sick. It is just the risk is higher when you buy from them. You are not uncommon.....everyone wants to be excited about getting a puppy. I get it, but it is not about a cute puppy ... it is a little life. I speak the truth as I see it and do NOT sugar coat when it is something as serious as puppies and people suffering because of bad breeding. I am not going to ignore what is blatant and tell you that your puppy is adorable because he IS adorable but that is not what this post was about. YOU asked for information about puppy selection!!
Am I saying the breeder you chose is bad....no, I have simply given you information to do with what you will. I lost a foster puppy a few months ago and it was one of the most tragic cases I have ever seen.....ALL due to bad breeding. I won't drag on about it here, but it was nothing short of horrific. She never had a chance. Liver shunt and necrotizing encephalitis. Some things with these pups you don't see at first....they crop up later. Most people don't see what I have seen. I can tell you this: if I had my life to do over, I probably would never have gotten involved in rescue. My heart has huge chunks that have been removed and I sometimes wonder if there is any more for them to take. It makes me sick to my stomach that people don't want to listen but I can't fix it...it is simply the suffering of the pups that I cannot stand.

You came here asking about puppy selection and you got the information you requested. That did not come off as "looking for old friends". My advice is to just get your puppy and share him with the forum. Everyone will love seeing him! This was about trying to help you choose.....I honestly don't think you wanted that help and thought you had already done your homework.

You don't have to listen to my or anyone else's' experiences. It is all your choice. If I think something is important, I share. Simple as that. I can only hope it helps some pup or some person.