What dog food and why?

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by kjc

Attachment 413522

your point?

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by Britster

I really like the standard of questions provided by WSAVA. I won't feed a food if they cannot or will not answer these questions in great detail.

https://wsava.org/wp-content/uploads...r-your-Pet.pdf

Didn't Ellie contact a bunch of dog food companies a few years ago with these questions?
I seem to remember her doing something like that. I need to see if I can find it.
People get SO hung up on the hoopla that the DFA and the small companies who cut corners push about ingredients. They don't realize how important these questions are.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by kjc

The dentist has a doctorate in dental surgery, which is 7-8 years of college study. He majored in chemistry, with a minor in biology, and courses in human nutrition.

I completed 2 years of a 4 year degree program majoring in biology, minor in computer sciences at the University of Maryland. I finished all the required courses, when I complete the elective courses I will graduate.

I began working as a night tech at an 24 hr emergency animal hospital. Worked nights for 3 years. There was an ICU for more critical patients, an Isolation ward for infectious diseases, and the general population ward. I worked alone for 2 years, with a vet being on-call. Triaged incoming pets and had to keep them alive with the vet on the phone till the vet arrived. I took Xrays, drew blood, ran bloodwork in-house, set up for emergency surgeries, monitored anesthesia during surgeries, assisted the vet during surgery, started IV’s, prepared and gave vaccines when appropriate, sutured up any incisions on pets that did not survive a surgery, prepared any samples needing to be sent out to the lab, cleaned, wrapped and sterilized the day’s surgical instruments and packed surgery kits for the next day, gave meds, updated patient charts, performed dentals with vet supervision, restrained animals for whatever was necessary, assisted with neuro exams, behavioral assessments, TPR’s, assisted with Ultrasound exams, electrocardiograph tests, removed ticks and fleas, clipped nails, hair, expressed way too many anal glands, filled prescriptions, wrote up discharge instructions for clients when their pets were discharged and explained/demonstrated any special procedures necessary for their pet’s care, did laundry, cleaned cages, mopped floors, disinfected exam rooms and tables. Then I switched to day shift for the next ten years. OJT involved a VNAC (Veterinary Nutritional Advisor Course) developed by Hill’s Pet Nutrition for training vets and techs on the proper use of their line of Prescription Diets and the medical conditions that would benefit their use and why. There was a 500 question exam at the end. I did not make 100%, I missed 3 questions. So I am basically familiar with the nutritional requirements of dogs, cats, parrots, eagles, owls, seagulls, rabbits, rats, mice, hamsters, guinea pigs, snakes, lizards and turtles, and horses.

Incubators, MRIs, Xrays, ultrasound machines, etc. and many medical procedures and medications have come from human medicine, adjusted and tweaked to work on our pets. Human IV fluids are still being used. Animals are currently being used to test stem cell therapies, cancer treatments, and many other things that could prove beneficial and be applicable to human medicine, and vice versa.

Just saying...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The dentist, in my opinion, found a way to make money on the internet. I SO remember posting that high pressure sales page he had some time ago with the timer on it. Hurry up he said and get this list of dog foods for *insert monetary amount* before the time is up The time was never up.... and after a lot of people commented, he removed it. He sounded like a carnival barker.

He claims his love of dogs makes him do this...hogwash, it is money if you ask me.

You are guessing about animal nutrition...that's great for YOUR pups but won't work for mine. I don't care what has been done in the human world. I am a Registered Nurse and could go on and on about my experiences but it would not change the fact that I am not educated in animal nutrition. I consult with the experts in the field. As I said in another post, I go to my dentist for my teeth....vets for my pups needs.

see next post as it won't let me post all in one post..............

[ladyjane]

Dentist or vet..............read her qualifications and tell me HOW you could choose him over her.....

REBECCA L. REMILLARD

Current Employment: Founder and President of Veterinary Nutritional Consultations, inc.
specializes in formulating strategically appropriate dietary recommendations for dogs, cats and
horses with medical conditions and has provided independent consulting to pet owners,
veterinarians and industry since 1993.
Education
Doctorate of VETERINARY MEDICINE, May 1987, Tufts University
Doctorate of PHILOSOPHY, Animal Science - Nutrition, May 1983, Colorado State University
Masters Degree of SCIENCE, Animal Science - Nutrition, August 1978, University of Maine
Bachelors Degree of SCIENCE, Animal Science, May 1976, Purdue University
Specialty Training
Virginia-Maryland Regional College of Veterinary Medicine;
Internship and Residency in Nutrition, 1987 - 1990
Johns Hopkins School of Medicine; Surgical Nutrition Fellowship, 1991 - 1993
Certification
Diplomate American College of Veterinary Nutrition (comparative), 1991
Professional Experience
North Carolina College of Veterinary Medicine, Raleigh, NC
Nutrition Service Clinical veterinarian and instructor 2011 to 2014
MSPCA Angell Animal Medical Center, Boston, MA
Senior Staff Veterinarian - Clinical Nutritionist 1993 to 2011
Teaching Experience (Large and Small Animal Nutrition)
North Carolina College of Veterinary Medicine 2011 - 2014
University of Tennessee College of Veterinary Medicine 2012
St. Matthew's University School of Veterinary Medicine 2013
Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine 1993 - 2011
Virginia-Maryland Regional College of Veterinary Medicine 1987 - 1990
Colorado State University, Animal Science Dept 1979 - 1983
University of Maine, Animal Science Dept 1976 - 1978
Professional Memberships and Committee Work
American College of Veterinary Nutrition 1991-present
American Academy of Veterinary Nutrition 1988 - present
American Veterinary Medical Association 1986 - present
National Academy of Science 2003-2004
AAFCO Sub Committee on Canine and Feline Nutrient Profiles 2007-2012
Publications (most recent and relevant):
1. Remillard, RL (ed). Equine Clinical Nutrition, 2nd Ed. Ames, IA: Wiley, (in progress).
2. Gaylord, L, Remillard, RL, Saker, SE. Risk of nutritional deficiencies for dogs on a
weight loss plan. Journal of Small Animal Practice 2018; 59:695–703.
3. Remillard, RL. Evason, ME. Top 5 Pet Food Protein Principles. Clinician’s Brief. Feb
2018:67-70.
4. Evason ME, Remillard, RL, Bartges J. Understanding Urinary Relative Supersaturation.
Clinician’s Brief. April 2016:24-28.
5. Remillard, RL. Pick your Battles Carefully. Veterinary Medicine. Sept 2015:242-246.
6. Remillard, RL. Hyperlipidemia. Clinician’s Brief. 2014;12(9):85-88.
7. Parr JM, Remillard RL. Handling Alternative Dietary Requests from Pet Owners. Vet
Clin SA 2014; 44:667–688
8. Parr JM, Remillard RL. Common Confounders of Dietary Elimination Trials contain the
Antigens Soy, Pork and Beef. JAAHA. 2014; 50(5):298-304.
9. Willis-Mahn, C, Remillard, RL, Tater, KC. ELISA testing for Soy Antigens in Dry Dog
Foods used in Dietary Elimination Trials. JAAHA 2014; 50(6):383-389.
10. Raditic, DS, Remillard, RL, Tater KC. ELISA Testing for Common Food Antigens in
Four Dry Dog Foods Used in Dietary Elimination Trials. J An Phys An Nutrition 2011
Feb;95(1):90-7.
11. Hand MS, Thatcher CD, Remillard RL, Roudebush P, Novotny, B. (eds) Small Animal
Clinical Nutrition V. 5th ed. Topeka KS: Mark Morris Institute, 2010.
12. Remillard RL. Homemade diets: attributes, pitfalls and a call for action. Topics in
Companion Animal Medicine. Topics in Companion Animal Medicine. 2008; vol 23 (3)
137-142.
13. Remillard RL. Clinicians Insert to MTP Inhibition papers. Journal of Veterinary
Pharmacology and Therapeutics. June 2007.
14. Dietary Management of Obesity in Dogs. A Purina Sponsored roundtable discussion
May 2007. Compendium on Continuing Ed for the Practicing Veterinarian 2007.
15. Remillard, RL. Parenteral Nutrition Support in Rabbits and Ferrets. J Exotic Pet Med
2006;15(4): 248-254.
16. Saker, KE, Remillard RL. Performance of a Canine Weight Loss Program in Clinical
Practice. Veterinary Therapeutic 2005; 6 (4):291-302.
17. Remillard RL, Saker, KE. Nutritional Management of Hepatic Disease. Ettinger S and
Feldman E, eds. In: Textbook of Veterinary Internal Medicine. 6th ed. Philadelphia: WB
Saunders, 2005;574-577.
18. Remillard RL, Wynn S. Herbal Medicine. Ettinger S and Feldman E, eds. In: Textbook of
Veterinary Internal Medicine. 6th ed. Philadelphia: WB Saunders, 2005;524-526.
19. Remillard RL. Obesity – a health problem to be recognized. Ettinger S and Feldman E,
eds. In: Textbook of Veterinary Internal Medicine. 6th ed. Philadelphia: WB Saunders,
2005;76-78.
20. Remillard RL. Nutritional Support in Critical Care Patients. Vet Clin North Am Small
Anim Pract. 2002; Sept:32(5):1145-64.
21. Dietary Management of Obesity and Diabetes in Cats. A Purina Sponsored roundtable
discussion. August 2005 published by Veterinary Medicine, November 2005.
22. Remillard, RL. Advising Clients who Feed Raw Diets to Pets. NAVC Clinicians Brief.
November 2005
23. Remillard, RL. Parenteral Nutrition. In: DiBartola SP, ed. Fluid Therapy in Small Animal
Practice. 2nd ed, Philadelphia: WB Saunders. 2001:465-482.
24. Remillard RL. Clinical Aspects of Obesity Management. Compendium on Continuing
Ed for the Practicing Veterinarian 2001: 23(9A);29-32.
25. Remillard RL, Darden DE, Michel, KE, et al. An Investigation of the relationship
between caloric intake and outcome of hospitalized dogs. Vet Therapeutics 2001;
2(4):301-310.
26. Hand MS, Thatcher CD, Remillard RL, Roudebush P. (eds) Small Animal Clinical
Nutrition IV. 4th ed. Topeka KS: Mark Morris Institute, 2000.
27. Remillard RL, Darden DE, Michel, KE, et al. An Investigation of the relationship
between caloric intake and outcome of hospitalized dogs. Vet Therapeutics 2001;
2(4):301-310.
28. Remillard RL. Nutritional Management of Diabetic Dogs. Compendium on Continuing
Education for the Practicing Veterinarian. 1999; 21(8):699-713.
29. Remillard RL, Guerino F, Dudgeon DL, Yardley JH. Intravenous Glutamine or Limited
Enteral Feedings Amelioration of Small Intestinal Disuse Atrophy. J Nutr 1998; 128(12
Suppl):2723S 2726S.
30. Remillard RL, Dudgeon DL, Yardley JH. Atrophied Small Intestinal Responses to Oral
feedings of Milk. J Nutr 1998; 128(12 Suppl):2727S 2729S.
31. Remillard RL. Omega 3 Fatty Acids in Canine and Feline Diets: A clinical success or
failure? Veterinary Clinical Nutrition Journal. 1998; 5(2):6-11.
32. Remillard RL, Pickett PJ, Thatcher CD, Davenport DJ. A Comparison of Kittens fed
Queen's milk with those fed Milk Replacers. Am J Vet Res 1993; 54(6):901-907.
33. Remillard RL, Modransky PD, Welker FH, Thatcher CD. Dietary Management of Cystic
Calculi in a Horse. Journal of Equine Veterinary Science 1992; 12(6):359-363.
34. Remillard RL, Matz ME, Shell L, Riggs D. Nutritional management of complicated
cases of canine diabetes mellitus. Compendium Cont Ed Pract Vet 1992; 14(2):176-183.
35. Remillard RL, Ross JN, Eddy JB. Variance of Indirect Blood Pressure Measurements
and Prevalence of Hypertension in Clinical Normal Dogs. Amer J Vet Res 1991;
52(6):561-565.
36. Remillard RL, Stem ES, Michel KE, Engelking LR, Sollod AE. Oral vitamin A
supplementation to debilitated cattle during Sahelian dry seasons. Prevent Vet Med
1990; 9:173-183.
37. Remillard RL, Johnson DE, Lewis LD, Nockels CF. Starch Digestion and digesta
kinetics in the small intestine of steers fed maize grain and maize silage mixture. An
Feed Sci and Technology. 1990; 30:79-89.
38. Remillard RL, Johnson DE, Avens J. Subtherapeutic tetracycline effects on recovery
patterns of calves after Salmonella typhimurium challenge. J Dairy Sci 1981;64:454-458.
39. Gabrielson K, Remillard RL, Huso DL. Zinc toxicity with pancreatic necrosis in
parenterally fed piglets. Vet Path 1996; 33(6):692-696.
40. Johnson DE, Remillard RL. Nutrient digestibility of brewers single cell protein. J Anim
Sci 1983; 56:735-739.
41. Hunter J, McGrath CJ, Thatcher CD, Remillard RL, McCain WJ. Adaptation of human
oscillometric blood pressure monitors for use in dogs. Amer J Vet Res 1990; 51(9):1439-
1442.
Veterinary Licenses
Massachusetts Veterinary License #4083 - currently valid
North Carolina Veterinary License #7251 – currently valid
National Veterinary Accreditation Program #6247 Category II – currently valid\
Updated: 4/23/20



Just sayin'................

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

Didn't Ellie contact a bunch of dog food companies a few years ago with these questions?
I seem to remember her doing something like that. I need to see if I can find it.
People get SO hung up on the hoopla that the DFA and the small companies who cut corners push about ingredients. They don't realize how important these questions are.

Ellie May / Crystal is who I meant.

[kjc]

Originally Posted by kjc

This is the label I was looking at, from a photo of a bag of Royal Canin Yorkshire Terrier Adult dry food on the chewy.com website:

Attachment 413519

This food is for adult Yorkies with no medical problems.

The problem that most stands out to me is that there are around 6-7 ingredients on this label that are actually food, like what can be found in a grocery store, the rest are additives, meaning something that is added to the actual food, for whatever reason. The fact that their (RC) additive list is so much longer than the food list tells me that maybe if they used different food items they wouldn’t have to add so many additives. I don’t know, just using common sense here.

There are certain things that I look for when I shop for me and/or my dogs. I tend to purchase foods that can provide the nutrients we need In the most natural form available, as in occurs by nature without any additives, if possible. I try to avoid foods with preservatives, when possible.

I choose products with natural additives over synthetic or man-made. I do this because our bodies cannot always use nor process synthetic additives. I believe this is called ‘bioavailability’ and is an important factor I look for when shopping.

Originally Posted by ladyjane

your point?

First attachment didn’t work, so reposted it.

To compare:

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by kjc

First attachment didn’t work, so reposted it.

To compare:

Attachment 413523

You can’t just look at the ingredients. That is what we are trying to say. It’s just not that simple.

[kjc]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

You can’t just look at the ingredients. That is what we are trying to say. It’s just not that simple.

Understood. That just what I look at first. Right or wrong, either way. The OP asked what each of us fed and why, I explained what I do.

If RC works for your pups, that is great. I know how hard it can be finding a food that is good for them, that they will consistently eat, and doesn’t make them puke.

I do read the ingredients, on everything. I needed to find a food without chicken because of my itchy dog (beginning of Covid lockdown, so seeing the vet wasn’t happening.) Figured simple, I’ll try her on a beef based food. I spent the day on chewy.com looking, and come to find out, every beef diet listed chicken in the ingredients. That’s where dr Harvey’s came into play. I add my own choice of protein, so beef first, and my dog itched a lot less.

Then I tried fresh chicken, and saw no increase in her itching. So this means she has a sensitivity to the way chicken is processed in the food I had been feeding her, or the other ingredients, IDK.

I will discuss all this with my vets when we go in for health checks soon.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by kjc

Understood. That just what I look at first. Right or wrong, either way. The OP asked what each of us fed and why, I explained what I do.

If RC works for your pups, that is great. I know how hard it can be finding a food that is good for them, that they will consistently eat, and doesn’t make them puke.

I do read the ingredients, on everything. I needed to find a food without chicken because of my itchy dog (beginning of Covid lockdown, so seeing the vet wasn’t happening.) Figured simple, I’ll try her on a beef based food. I spent the day on chewy.com looking, and come to find out, every beef diet listed chicken in the ingredients. That’s where dr Harvey’s came into play. I add my own choice of protein, so beef first, and my dog itched a lot less.

Then I tried fresh chicken, and saw no increase in her itching. So this means she has a sensitivity to the way chicken is processed in the food I had been feeding her, or the other ingredients, IDK.

I will discuss all this with my vets when we go in for health checks soon.

While I get what you are saying that doesn't mean she is allergic to how it’s processed it could be to anything in the food. Food allergies are also rare and to truly find out you have to do an actual food trial. Our veterinarians never actually closed they just had curb side service. They are still doing that but now they are allowed to due all shots. My 2 middle babies are going Monday for overdue vaccines but I still have to stay in the car. I get the allergy and intolerance thing though. Callie has IBD which is caused by food allergies but I found she did better on the non prescription food. It is hard for me with 4. I have one who only eats tiny pieces, my boys hate white fish, Callie doesn't tolerate lamb well and Ollie seriously would only eat the Royal Canin foods I tried. I also have to leave it out because Ollie and Callie only pick at food.

[kjc]

This, as I thought Royal Canin could use a higher quality meat instead of a supplement: (See bold blue print)

Originally Posted by ladyjane

From petdiets.com , Dr. Rebecca Remillard who absolutely knows about this topic! Her resume (and others she works with) is here: https://www.petdiets.com/about

[/COLOR]Dogs are in the order Carnivora, but their feeding behaviors are best described as omnivorous. Their anatomy and physiology also support an omnivore diet. The nearest living ancestors of our domestic dog are wolves, and the closest living relatives are coyotes. Both wolves and coyotes are opportunistic predators and scavengers. They eat carrion (dead animals), small mammals, birds, amphibians, and the feces of herbivores (horses) that does contain plant material (starch, fiber). Canine predators consume the intestinal tract of large herbivores, which contains plant material. Both coyotes and wolves have been observed eating plants; fruits, berries, persimmons, mushrooms, and melons in the wild. Similarly, our dogs have anatomical and physiological characteristics that permit the digestion and utilization of a widely varied diet from both plant and animal sources.

The nutrient composition of an organ or skeletal meat, even including the bone, does not meet the known nutrient requirements of the dog; in fact, it is quite deficient in some nutrients and excessive in others.Yes, dogs like to eat meat and chew on bones. However, that does not necessarily mean that the nutrient composition of such a diet is complete and balanced for the dog.[/B][/I]

Just wondering if rice as the first two ingredients is considered as being “in moderation”

Originally Posted by ladyjane

Wow...quick answer. All I had to do was go look at petdiets.com ........

QUESTION: Hill's Science Diet has changed most of the formulas for their Science Diet line. Most of these new products contain brewers rice and or brown rice. Now I'm scared to feed any of the Science Diet foods or any dog foods that use rice as an ingredient because of arsenic in the rice. Am I overreacting? Should I use grain free or a diet that still uses corn as the starch? Iams still has a few that use corn. My dog is a little overweight and finding a weight loss diet without rice seems to be very hard. He is also allergic to wheat. Thank you.

ANSWER: "Am I overreacting?" The short answer is yes ... the reason is that recently the level of arsenic (As) was measured in rice ... it had not been measured previously, and the feds do not have a reference range for rice so the media compared it to the reference range in drinking water which is interesting but not valid. They are working a determining a safe vs. toxic As range. In the meantime, the odds are b/c As has been in rice (normally taken up from the soil) since the beginning of time, the current levels are what they have always been. Given we do not have an epidemic of As poisoning in any species eating the rice, the newly discovered levels are presumed to be safe. Actually some metabolic reactions in the body use As so like most things in life, moderation is the key. I am fairly certain the levels of As in the any pet food using rice today is the same level it is have been since pet foods have been made. I would not drive myself crazy looking for a no rice dog food.

Just something to think about... maybe a problem, maybe not.

[kjc]

Royal Canin Yorkshire Terrier Adult Dry Food, 10# bag, regularly sells for $42.29,
on sale for $26.82 today, at Chewy.com

[sandy simpson]

I have been searching dog foods. My yorkies are 8yrs. I have been feeding Lifes Abundance. No problems. Good stools. Vet said I need a senior diet.. Lifes Abundance has 26% protein and 16% fat. So I tried Lotus. Soft stools. 18 % protein and 9% fat.
I haven't found any senior food I want to feed them. Do you feed your senior dogs senior food? Oh and they get Fromm Turkey and pumpkin pate. They really like that.

[kjc]

Originally Posted by sandy simpson

I have been searching dog foods. My yorkies are 8yrs. I have been feeding Lifes Abundance. No problems. Good stools. Vet said I need a senior diet.. Lifes Abundance has 26% protein and 16% fat. So I tried Lotus. Soft stools. 18 % protein and 9% fat.
I haven't found any senior food I want to feed them. Do you feed your senior dogs senior food? Oh and they get Fromm Turkey and pumpkin pate. They really like that.

I am not sure who you’re directing your question to, but as I have a senior dog and I have fed senior dog food before I will answer. I fed my first Yorky Sophie Anne food formulated for seniors when it first came out. She had been on it for about a year when I noticed she was getting really sluggish and I was getting concerned because she had no energy. So I switched back to a regular adult diet and I noticed a great improvement, she was running around more and was was more attentive.
I did discuss this with my vet. She had no other problems at the time and my vet said basically do what works. I would hope the formulas today are greatly improved upon so if you do find a senior food that you want to try I would say go for it but just really keep a close eye on your dog’s habits, behaviors, energy level, etc. and if you see any changes, discuss them with your vet.
With senior dogs it can be tricky, because the goal is to catch any old age disease progress early on, so treatments can be initiated, and where special Rx diets can be beneficial for specific problems.

From my personal experience, my Yorkie was too active and did not benefit from a Senior diet, which was at that time formulated with reduced amounts of nutrients to lessen the workload on the kidneys.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by sandy simpson

I have been searching dog foods. My yorkies are 8yrs. I have been feeding Lifes Abundance. No problems. Good stools. Vet said I need a senior diet.. Lifes Abundance has 26% protein and 16% fat. So I tried Lotus. Soft stools. 18 % protein and 9% fat.
I haven't found any senior food I want to feed them. Do you feed your senior dogs senior food? Oh and they get Fromm Turkey and pumpkin pate. They really like that.

You don’t need a senior food but maybe your vet can recommend one since they suggested it. If they are dong well on what they are on then I wouldn’t change.

[kjc]

I reread your post... any reason other than your dog’s age for the recommendation to start a senior diet? Was bloodwork done? If not I’d start there.

That said, my Finny was really slowing down, sleeping most of the day. When I changed Chloe’s food to stop her itching, I thought about Finny. She has been having seizures about twice a month, and I had videoed one and showed the vet early on when we first got her and nothing was really done because they were so few and far between and they really weren’t sure it was a seizure because it was so minor and told me keep an eye on her. So I did. Then with the Covid lockdown, she started having two a day. Of course I’m panicking thinking brain tumor she’s going to die so I was just trying to make her comfortable till I could get her in to see the vet. She is 12 years old now, so thinking senior diet, kidney diet, etc.

After receiving the sample food for Chloe and looking at the ingredients, and reading the propaganda, I decided to try Finny on it, because if her kidneys are failing, I could cut some of the protein as one has to add it (it’s a base mix), it’s dried ingredients, so no preservatives, and Wow! It has absolutely turned her life around. She’s running around, barking at everything (her normal lol), aware, alert, back to her old self. I also added the prebiotic and probiotic blend with digestives enzymes, which I also believe are very important, especially too for Finny as I suspect part of her problem is to do with her tummy/ digestion.

Both my pups are bouncing off the walls, less eye goop, super attentive, overall really doing well. I am planning to get bloodwork on both of them soon, to be sure.