New ???s about Chloe

[WWR]

Chloe seems sturdy enough weigh is good. teeth perfect hasn't lost any since she became an adult. Appetite is good (still trying to get some sort of balance).
Numbers are good a little too much protein but is being addressed. She just can't SEE well and cataracts are the culprit. We have a doc(2 hours away) that's been doing that surgery for a very long time. If the stars align right I think we'll
go for it. Anyone out there that has been thru this with a pup? Chloe will be 15 December 11. Any good or bad experiences would be helpful. Thanks

Walter

[Lovetodream88]

I have not had it done but I definitely think you should get the opinions of your vet and the specialist because it maybe to much to put her through at 15.

[matese]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

I have not had it done but I definitely think you should get the opinions of your vet and the specialist because it maybe to much to put her through at 15.

[lilgidget]

I agree. At 15, she's at risk for so many things including not waking up from anesthesia. Make sure all tests are done before you decide to have the surgery. We all want is best for our little ones.

[airplane]

I agree that age is a factor that needs to be considered when it comes to anesthesia. There does exist many vets that say age is not a disease and be willing to put many old dogs under anesthesia, but the reality is that the research shows that old age is one of the big factors that is predictive of death under anesthesia. Small body size is another big factor as well that will completely skew the 1/2000 odds that many vets will tell you when you ask about statistical odds of death under anesthesia. Death under anesthesia seems to happen very often. Go to a dog show and chat with people about it, and you’ll be shocked how many people have lost a dog under anesthesia or knows people who have.

With that being said though, my Bijou was 16 1/2 years old when he was put under anesthesia to have one of his eyes removed because it had an ulcer that was really bad. He was staying with my mom and she has carpeting which I believe he rubbed his eye on. He always had a tendency to rub his head down on the floor really hard because his ears were often bothering him and were always difficult to get well and maintain wellness even with medicine and care. My mother casually said to me there’s puss coming out of his eye. I was very upset with her and expect her not to be so clueless. But anyways, I’m getting off topic. The point was he did great under anesthesia at his old age and he coped well with just his one eye. The dementia he developed later on though he did not cope well with.

It’s great to get opinions from a vet, and even multiple vets. But at the same time realize that everyone likes their vet and has probably built up trust with them over the years, but that often changes once they screw up. My previous vet didn’t recognize anaphylaxis when it happened right in front of her eyes and I had a necropsy done that probably wasn’t needed because, later as I found out, there were many clues that completely pointed towards and said anaphylactic shock killed my dog Maezie when she went in for a dental. That incident completely ruined my relationship with my vet and it’s unforgivable to me.

It’s a tough decision to make, and of course we all want to make the best decisions for our dogs. But just be aware of the true odds of risk which are very different when looking at an older and small/toy sized breed like a yorkie. It’s tough to weigh the benefits to the risks. But I have heard of many dogs that had cataracts removed and it seemed to really improve their quality of life. I think you have to look at so many things and just try to make the best informed decision you can.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by airplane

I agree that age is a factor that needs to be considered when it comes to anesthesia. There does exist many vets that say age is not a disease and be willing to put many old dogs under anesthesia, but the reality is that the research shows that old age is one of the big factors that is predictive of death under anesthesia. Small body size is another big factor as well that will completely skew the 1/2000 odds that many vets will tell you when you ask about statistical odds of death under anesthesia. Death under anesthesia seems to happen very often. Go to a dog show and chat with people about it, and you’ll be shocked how many people have lost a dog under anesthesia or knows people who have.

With that being said though, my Bijou was 16 1/2 years old when he was put under anesthesia to have one of his eyes removed because it had an ulcer that was really bad. He was staying with my mom and she has carpeting which I believe he rubbed his eye on. He always had a tendency to rub his head down on the floor really hard because his ears were often bothering him and were always difficult to get well and maintain wellness even with medicine and care. My mother casually said to me there’s puss coming out of his eye. I was very upset with her and expect her not to be so clueless. But anyways, I’m getting off topic. The point was he did great under anesthesia at his old age and he coped well with just his one eye. The dementia he developed later on though he did not cope well with.

It’s great to get opinions from a vet, and even multiple vets. But at the same time realize that everyone likes their vet and has probably built up trust with them over the years, but that often changes once they screw up. My previous vet didn’t recognize anaphylaxis when it happened right in front of her eyes and I had a necropsy done that probably wasn’t needed because, later as I found out, there were many clues that completely pointed towards and said anaphylactic shock killed my dog Maezie when she went in for a dental. That incident completely ruined my relationship with my vet and it’s unforgivable to me.

It’s a tough decision to make, and of course we all want to make the best decisions for our dogs. But just be aware of the true odds of risk which are very different when looking at an older and small/toy sized breed like a yorkie. It’s tough to weigh the benefits to the risks. But I have heard of many dogs that had cataracts removed and it seemed to really improve their quality of life. I think you have to look at so many things and just try to make the best informed decision you can.

I have to disagree with you and from a medical stand point. Sure as a vet assistant I didn’t go through as many classes as a vet but I did learn a whole lot about anesthesia. It is extremely safe and it is rare that a dog dies when the proper protocols are followed. In many many cases I have heard where the dog did not make it, it was because proper protocol was not followed and in a lot of cases it was because there was an underlying health issue that would have shown up in blood work but blood work was not done. With small dogs to keep their temp up it is proper protocol to use a heated operating table and many will either use a heated pad in recovery or wrap their patients up in a blanket. My issue with the age is not that anesthesia isn’t safe it’s that senior dogs heal much slower and have a higher risk of infection. Being in a weird environment can also be very stressful. Callie at 12 and a half was put under for a dental and it was not the anesthesia that scared me it was the fact that her liver numbers are higher due to Cushings so it could be harder for her to filter out the anesthesia as well as say a healthy dog. I have had the opportunity to shadow my vet and that built my trust even further. Every protocol was followed even through to the last surgery. I get losing a dog under anesthesia has got to be difficult but that doesn’t change the fact that anesthesia is perfectly safe.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by lilgidget

I agree. At 15, she's at risk for so many things including not waking up from anesthesia. Make sure all tests are done before you decide to have the surgery. We all want is best for our little ones.

Anesthesia is very safe as long as all protocols are followed. The bigger issue with the age would be slow healing and stress.

[airplane]

That’s an interesting take on it and I appreciate your viewpoint, but I fully believe it’s a stretch to say anesthesia is perfectly safe. My dog died when proper protocol was followed as well as blood tests etc, and the necropsy confirmed she was perfectly healthy but she was allergic to an anesthetic drug and had the worst reaction possible and in just a few short seconds her blood pressure rapidly dropped and her heart stopped beating. What’s more, every clinic in the city I live in loses dogs every year under anesthesia. Some clinics have told me they lose up to a dozen dogs every year, and many of them are dogs they considered to be healthy. And in many cases there’s no answers, even with a necropsy being done. But certainly there are cases of an underlying health issue discovered after the fact that would never be known unless it was specifically tested for. Things that blood tests don’t show - certain heart conditions, etc.

I think the confusion is how the word ‘rare’ is defined. The big research study with over 100,000 dogs showed that, even with dogs that are considered healthy, old age and small size really increase the odds of death under anesthesia. I believe it was 4 fold and 9 fold, respectively. Something like that. And even the discussions I’ve had with numerous vets, those are the factors they mention that are predictive of death under anesthesia. They don’t say it’s the same for all dogs as long as there’s proper protocol and blood tests. So from an odds point of view, I don’t believe it’s a simple as saying it’s all about proper protocol and blood work being done. There’s no way that’s the whole picture, and that’s what the research shows. So many dogs have died under anesthesia where things were done the right way, the right dosage of drugs, blood work, etc. There’s a risk every time a dog is put under anesthesia, and I believe it’s important to understand those risks as it applies to the specific dog. And that was the point I was trying to convey in my previous post. Anesthesia is not, and probably never will be, perfectly safe. At least that’s what a number of vets have told me.

I don’t want to make people afraid of anesthesia, but at the same time you have to be realistic about it and understand the risks as it applies to your specific dog.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by airplane

That’s an interesting take on it and I appreciate your viewpoint, but I fully believe it’s a stretch to say anesthesia is perfectly safe. My dog died when proper protocol was followed as well as blood tests etc, and the necropsy confirmed she was perfectly healthy but she was allergic to an anesthetic drug and had the worst reaction possible and in just a few short seconds her blood pressure rapidly dropped and her heart stopped beating. What’s more, every clinic in the city I live in loses dogs every year under anesthesia. Some clinics have told me they lose up to a dozen dogs every year, and many of them are dogs they considered to be healthy. And in many cases there’s no answers, even with a necropsy being done. But certainly there are cases of an underlying health issue discovered after the fact that would never be known unless it was specifically tested for. Things that blood tests don’t show - certain heart conditions, etc.

I think the confusion is how the word ‘rare’ is defined. The big research study with over 100,000 dogs showed that, even with dogs that are considered healthy, old age and small size really increase the odds of death under anesthesia. I believe it was 4 fold and 9 fold, respectively. Something like that. And even the discussions I’ve had with numerous vets, those are the factors they mention that are predictive of death under anesthesia. They don’t say it’s the same for all dogs as long as there’s proper protocol and blood tests. So from an odds point of view, I don’t believe it’s a simple as saying it’s all about proper protocol and blood work being done. There’s no way that’s the whole picture, and that’s what the research shows. So many dogs have died under anesthesia where things were done the right way, the right dosage of drugs, blood work, etc. There’s a risk every time a dog is put under anesthesia, and I believe it’s important to understand those risks as it applies to the specific dog. And that was the point I was trying to convey in my previous post. Anesthesia is not, and probably never will be, perfectly safe. At least that’s what a number of vets have told me.

I don’t want to make people afraid of anesthesia, but at the same time you have to be realistic about it and understand the risks as it applies to your specific dog.

Well maybe protocol is different in Canada vs the US. Proper protocol would have saved your dog in my opinion. A good vet is prepared for issues like that to happen. I think that you are very jaded in this subject also which does make a deference. It is safe and rare to lose a healthy dog to anesthesia. I have been on the medical side of this. Old age isn't dangerous for anesthesia it's when their are more underlying causes like a liver or other organ issue which does show up in blood work and is more common in older dogs. Callie gets a senior panel every year which checks all her organs. The only small dogs that might be at more risk when proper protocol is done is possibly dogs under 3 pounds. You can't rewrite the facts. Maybe over here the protocol is more strict don't know but your facts don't add up to what you learn in school and so on. My vets office has lost very few dogs within the first 6 years of their practice opening they lost 2 dogs and one of those was the vets dog. Generally it would be very rare that you could just walk into vets offices and get their stats on how many dogs have died under anesthesia.

[airplane]

Of course you’d say that proper protocol would’ve saved my dog. That’s a nice thing to say. I’ve sat down for hours with many vets discussing how my dog died and the circumstances of her death and reviewed every single finding of the necropsy report with them and the blood work and how quickly and severe of a reaction it was, and the actions that my previous vet took when the incident happened, etc. The answer is no, she couldn’t have been saved. Normally when one has an anaphylactic reaction to a drug that is injected, it often comes on extremely quickly and is a very extreme reaction. Dogs can die from it even when proper treatment protocol is used. Beyond that, the research study found a difference that changed the odds at 10 lbs and under, not 3 lbs. You sound like an academic who appreciates research. You should log in to your University account and read some research studies. There’s multiple studies out there showing that these are factors related to risk. And many vets I’ve spoken to have confirmed that with me. You can’t rewrite facts.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by airplane

Of course you’d say that proper protocol would’ve saved my dog. That’s a nice thing to say. I’ve sat down for hours with many vets discussing how my dog died and the circumstances of her death and reviewed every single finding of the necropsy report with them and the blood work and how quickly and severe of a reaction it was, and the actions that my previous vet took when the incident happened, etc. The answer is no, she couldn’t have been saved. Normally when one has an anaphylactic reaction to a drug that is injected, it often comes on extremely quickly and is a very extreme reaction. Dogs can die from it even when proper treatment protocol is used. Beyond that, the research study found a difference that changed the odds at 10 lbs and under, not 3 lbs. You sound like an academic who appreciates research. You should log in to your University account and read some research studies. There’s multiple studies out there showing that these are factors related to risk. And many vets I’ve spoken to have confirmed that with me. You can’t rewrite facts.

I apologize for the way that worded. After thinking about it I didn't really write that well and I would blame it on stress I'm going through but really there is no excuse. I do think things maybe much different in Canada vs the US. I think more precautions are taken over here. I know with medicines it has to go through a lot more here then Canada. If a proper crash cart was compiled I feel there would have been a much better chance for survival but I know not every vet is the same or has the same equipment. Our veterinary groups over here say the risk is more in 3 pounds and under. I don't have access to a lot of the studies Veterinarians do and I hate the public in general can't see it all either. Anesthesia of course does have its risks but it is safe and not as risky as in the past. There are dogs that it is more risky for like Callie is high risk but its not her age that is really the issue its that her liver is slightly damaged from Cushings, she can suffer an after effect of the anesthesia because of her IBD and she can have lots of coughing from being intubated because of the Collapsing trachea. I'm trying to think about how many times she has been under I know its 3 times for leg surgeries, a root canal, a broken tooth extraction and maybe 6 or 7 dentals and never has had any issue even wakes up well and fast. My two boys were both under 10 pounds when neutered no issues although Ollie's temp dropped slightly but they had the ability to warm him up quickly. Generally your not putting your dog under anesthesia for the heck of it and it is a necessity and in most cases its successful with no issues. With my experience with Callie sedation is much harder on her body then anesthesia. I still think that because you lost your baby under anesthesia it does make you a bit more sensitive to the topic. I can't speak for every vet but my vet seems to have just about every thing prepared for things to happen. I will also be honest I worry like heck when any of mine go under even knowing medically its safe. We had twin goats back when I was 18 and they had been withered and one of them started having issues going pee and would scream when he went. We took him to the vet that gave us a powder to mix in his food but it still didn't work so they took him in to do surgery and its a bit different with goats their systems are different. He made it through the surgery but died in recovery, his heart just stopped. It's a terrible thing that makes you blame yourself. Had Callie not been a puppy that we just got at that time I think it would have been even harder because she was a distraction.

[chattiesmom]

Hi Walter, how lucky you are to have a healthy 15 year old. My take is a bit different and many will disagree, but here goes. Unless Chloe is in pain or is having a lot of difficulty navigating through her daily routines, I don't think I would put her through the trama of surgery. If it was a life threatening sitution, I would think differently, but to risk surgery for clearer vision would probably not be an option for my girls. My two precious princesses are house dogs, they have a safe fenced back yard and are rarely outside alone for more than a couple of minutes. Also, we live a quiet stable life - our home is safe for the girls and we rarely add or move furniture, which would create obstacles for a furgirl with dimming vision.

I guess it is up to each of us to make tough decisions regarding our furbabies.

[Lovetodream88]

I just wanted to add that I have seen some aids to help blind dogs. They make a halo that sticks out in front of them and hits the wall or furniture before they do to let them know it’s there. They also have scent stickers but I’m not 100% sure how those work.

[matese]

Originally Posted by chattiesmom

Hi Walter, how lucky you are to have a healthy 15 year old. My take is a bit different and many will disagree, but here goes. Unless Chloe is in pain or is having a lot of difficulty navigating through her daily routines, I don't think I would put her through the trama of surgery. If it was a life threatening sitution, I would think differently, but to risk surgery for clearer vision would probably not be an option for my girls. My two precious princesses are house dogs, they have a safe fenced back yard and are rarely outside alone for more than a couple of minutes. Also, we live a quiet stable life - our home is safe for the girls and we rarely add or move furniture, which would create obstacles for a furgirl with dimming vision.

I guess it is up to each of us to make tough decisions regarding our furbabies.

I totally agree

[matese]

My girl passed at 17 years old, the last year of her life she was 95 % blind and deaf. I made no new changes inside the house, she knew where everything was. As long as you do not move furniture around and keep to the same routine / schedule she will be just fine. We all want to give these precious little babies the best of the best. With the huge veterinary

technology we now have our babies live longer lives. I myself would not put a senior dog through cataract surgery for the mere stress it puts on them. Blindness is not life threatening. Just my opinion.