Help to interpret the yorkie standard - YorkieTalk.com Forums

airplane · 10-27-2018, 10:56 PM

I just wanted to ask for opinions about something that popped up in my mind when I read the November issue of The Global Yorkshire Terrier Magazine. Oscar Martinez was interviewed and he talked about liking yorkies from the older times. And he also made comments about the breed looking more like a Shih Tzu nowadays instead of our own breed. He goes on explaining movement, low heads, and he clearly doesn’t like oversized topknots. He thinks a yorkie with a nice head doesn’t need that kind of topknot, but rather just a simple bow and lead. Anyways when I read the interview and saw him mention Shih Tzus, and although he didn’t specifically mention it, it made me think a lot about the stop on the face of a yorkie. The stop to me is basically the bridge of the nose, that’s how I think of it. It’s the bridge and the angling of the bridge that is between the muzzle and the skull. Just so everyone can understand what I’m referring to, here’s a link to a site that shows it:

https://janedogs.com/dog-head-components/

Obviously Shih Tzus have a stop that is angled very sharply. Right in the Shih Tzu standard it says they are supposed to have a definite stop, and I’m kinda thinking that a sharp angled stop is one of the things that contributes a lot to them having a flat looking face.

With yorkies the CKC standard says “Muzzle not too long in proportion to skull, set on a 90 degree angle to the head forming the stop”. What exactly does the 90 degree angle refer to, because there’s multiple components to the head and the stop for example might be on different angles in relation to the skull. I guess what I’m saying is the muzzle might be set on 90 degrees in relation to the head but the stop itself might be a slight stop (which I’ve seen the yorkie diagrams ask for a slight stop) or the stop could be angled sharply and you get more of that flat face shih tzu type of look. What is the proper interpretation of that sentence in the standard as it relates to the angling of the stop itself? Does it mean that the stop itself is supposed to be on a 90 degree angle in relation to the muzzle? Or is it breeder preference where it could be either a slight stop, or a bit sharper, or a really sharp angle to the stop? It just seems like that part of the standard is written in a sort of ambiguous way without really clarifying the forming of the stop being on any which angle.

I do look at a lot of pictures and I’ve been to a few dog shows, and to my eye I do see a lot of variance to the look of yorkies. Obviously I’m only discussing one aspect of a look, but it’s definitely something where I see a lot of differences between some of the yorkies in the ring. It can sometimes be hard to really see the stop well because there might be a really poofy topknot, but in general when I’m looking at the face and taking it all in, it seems some have a much more flatter looking face than others and the stop is angled more sharply and in others not so much. There’s variance and I don’t know what’s correct.

lilgidget · 10-28-2018, 10:51 AM

I don't really know anything about the standards for Yorkies. All I know is that I have a very loving, caring, affectionate little girl. Is she standard? Who cares? She brings me joy and peace when I need it the most. When I got her, I had no intention of breeding or showing her. I just needed a loving companion who can go with me when I leave the house. Love my little Gidget with all my heart.

airplane · 10-28-2018, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilgidget

I don't really know anything about the standards for Yorkies. All I know is that I have a very loving, caring, affectionate little girl. Is she standard? Who cares? She brings me joy and peace when I need it the most. When I got her, I had no intention of breeding or showing her. I just needed a loving companion who can go with me when I leave the house. Love my little Gidget with all my heart.

Of course. I totally agree with you. I’m not a breeder either. I as well could say who cares. It doesn’t make a difference to me, but I am trying to understand the breed better and I’m always trying to develop an eye for a yorkie. I even decided I’m gonna book a flight to Toronto next month to watch the national Canadian yorkie specialty show. I think the breed is really interesting and I was just hoping to get some opinions about that aspect of interpreting the standard. Whether or not a dog is close to or far from any standard, that doesn’t have any thing to do with devoting love to your dog and having an amazing companion. So who cares. But I’m still curious about the interpretation of it. Maybe I should post this thread in the breeder section.

yorkiemini · 10-28-2018, 02:49 PM

If you go to the YTCA the Standards for the breed are there.
AKC probably has the standard published as well.
If you go,to a show any of the judges could answer questions as well.

airplane · 10-28-2018, 09:08 PM

Yeah I may have to speak to some judges specifically about that. I was fortunate enough last year for my local kennel club to give me the job of picking up judges at the airport and taking them out for supper. And the judges seem to love talking about dogs, and when I mention yorkies I seem to get a very similar response from most the judges I spoke to. Namely that they don’t like seeing down-face yorkies, don’t like seeing baby doll faces, and they think yorkies are a breed that needs a lot of help. As soon as they started giving me their insights and opinions, I started creating a judges book. Lol. Just a book with the name of the judges and what their preferences are.

Anyways, I was thinking about a very abrupt stop and how that’s one of the features of a so-called baby doll face. But it’s confusing to me because maybe that one feature is actually correct for the breed. It’s often seen in the ring. It seems very easy to interpret the Canadian standard that way. Just the diagrams throw me off when they mention a slight stop. I guess it’s kinda subjective but I was hoping someone with many years of familiarity with the breed could tell me a bit more of a definitive answer.

RV6APilot · 10-30-2018, 04:42 AM

Airplane thanks for raising these questions. I too am reading all I can on the
breed since we will be getting our pup in about 7 weeks(she is currently 5wks old).

I have been to the YTCA site, but I guess I am trying to figure out the basis
that they have set the standard on. What was the criteria in relation to the
origin and today. Like you it won't make a difference in my pet, but also like
you I am curious. Guess it is the engineer/scientist in me.

Ron

airplane · 11-15-2018, 09:19 AM

In case anyone was wondering, I think I found the answer. It’s what would be called a moderate stop. Not too abrupt or too slight either.
On this webpage:

Judging the Yorkshire Terrier by Dr

There’s the interpretation that an abrupt stop goes hand in hand with a more rounded or dome shape to the skull, which of course is incorrect for the breed. This is something that kinda surprises me cause I always thought that a flattish type of skull could be had even with an abrupt stop. I swear I’ve seen yorkies with an abrupt stop with a squarish looking head that appears kinda flattish on the skull. But apparently not. Maybe it’s just a certain camera angle or something that’s given me that impression in those cases I think I saw that.

Anyways, it seems the answer is the muzzle is at a 90 degree angle to just the head in general, not any particular part of the head. And also that the stop should be moderate so that way the skull won’t be too rounded or dome like in shape. A moderate stop should allow the top of the head (the skull) to still have some flatness to it.

lisaly · 11-15-2018, 09:40 PM

If you get a chance, you should PM YT member Gemy. She lives in Etobicoke and has been actively involved in showing both her Yorkie (who has his Canadian and American championships and his American Grand Championship) and her Black Russian Terriers. She worked extensively with judges to help them interpret the standard for Black Russian Terriers, which was a huge undertaking. Gail is a dear friend of mine who is very generous, genuine and kind. She is very committed to both breeds and is very knowledgeable. She usually goes to the Canadian Yorkie Specialty. I spent the day with her several years ago at the National Yorkie Specialty in Manhattan, and it was wonderful and fascinating.

My last three Yorkies had shorter muzzles, and I loved everything about them. I think they were beautiful, even though they had more of a baby doll face. Their sire was a champion, but his muzzle was also very short. Katie was bred to standard, and her muzzle is longer, but she also is beautiful to me. I understand much more now why it is so important to maintain a standard in order to preserve the breed we love so much. I have adored each one of my Yorkies. I ended up getting Katie from Gail’s breeder because I knew that her breeder bred for health, conformation, and temperament, and I was terrified knowing all of the health issues Yorkies have. Katie had been one of her dogs that she had championed and retired at the age of three, and that is when she came into my life. Health and temperament are most important, but I also envision what a Yorkie should look like in my mind, and I don’t want that to evolve too much. The minute I hold them, I fall in love, and I don’t think it would matter what they look like.

I really hope you enjoy your trip and the show. When I went to the National Specialty in Manhattan, it was about eight months after I lost my last Yorkie. Seeing all of those Yorkies was very therapeutic for me, and I also got to spend the day with a dear friend.

airplane · 11-18-2018, 04:01 AM

Thank you. And I’ll definitely for sure send a message and get in touch with Gail. I think it would be really nice to meet up with another YT member when I fly out to Toronto. There’s so many people I want to meet there: Kirsten McGregor (her grooming DVD’s helped me so much), Lilly Dewitte (if she’s there), Cathy Christensen, Loreta from Oz, Will Alexander (don’t think he’s showing a yorkie but he emailed me saying come up and approach him), and lots more. And I just want to have fun and see some beautiful yorkies who can make my heart skip a beat.

I hope it will be therapeutic for me as it was for you. Losing Bijou and Maezie this year has been really tough. I don’t cry every day anymore, but the pain is still there.

RV6APilot · 12-08-2018, 12:06 PM

As we get ready for our little girl to come home I have been reading
everything I can find on Yorkies. I know the YTCA and the AKC set the
weight standard as less than 7lbs. Well how do we get yorkies that are
10-20lbs? Just curious as my brother has a yorkie that is 18lbs. I guess I
am just curious as to how the "beefier" ones come about.

7 days and counting!

Lovetodream88 · 12-08-2018, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RV6APilot

As we get ready for our little girl to come home I have been reading
everything I can find on Yorkies. I know the YTCA and the AKC set the
weight standard as less than 7lbs. Well how do we get yorkies that are
10-20lbs? Just curious as my brother has a yorkie that is 18lbs. I guess I
am just curious as to how the "beefier" ones come about.

7 days and counting!

They are called throw backs because Yorkies used to be bigger and were bred down so it can still run in some lines. My youngest was bigger then both his parents at 5 months.

10-27-2018, 10:56 PM	#1
airplane Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Canada Posts: 212	Help to interpret the yorkie standard I just wanted to ask for opinions about something that popped up in my mind when I read the November issue of The Global Yorkshire Terrier Magazine. Oscar Martinez was interviewed and he talked about liking yorkies from the older times. And he also made comments about the breed looking more like a Shih Tzu nowadays instead of our own breed. He goes on explaining movement, low heads, and he clearly doesn’t like oversized topknots. He thinks a yorkie with a nice head doesn’t need that kind of topknot, but rather just a simple bow and lead. Anyways when I read the interview and saw him mention Shih Tzus, and although he didn’t specifically mention it, it made me think a lot about the stop on the face of a yorkie. The stop to me is basically the bridge of the nose, that’s how I think of it. It’s the bridge and the angling of the bridge that is between the muzzle and the skull. Just so everyone can understand what I’m referring to, here’s a link to a site that shows it: https://janedogs.com/dog-head-components/ Obviously Shih Tzus have a stop that is angled very sharply. Right in the Shih Tzu standard it says they are supposed to have a definite stop, and I’m kinda thinking that a sharp angled stop is one of the things that contributes a lot to them having a flat looking face. With yorkies the CKC standard says “Muzzle not too long in proportion to skull, set on a 90 degree angle to the head forming the stop”. What exactly does the 90 degree angle refer to, because there’s multiple components to the head and the stop for example might be on different angles in relation to the skull. I guess what I’m saying is the muzzle might be set on 90 degrees in relation to the head but the stop itself might be a slight stop (which I’ve seen the yorkie diagrams ask for a slight stop) or the stop could be angled sharply and you get more of that flat face shih tzu type of look. What is the proper interpretation of that sentence in the standard as it relates to the angling of the stop itself? Does it mean that the stop itself is supposed to be on a 90 degree angle in relation to the muzzle? Or is it breeder preference where it could be either a slight stop, or a bit sharper, or a really sharp angle to the stop? It just seems like that part of the standard is written in a sort of ambiguous way without really clarifying the forming of the stop being on any which angle. I do look at a lot of pictures and I’ve been to a few dog shows, and to my eye I do see a lot of variance to the look of yorkies. Obviously I’m only discussing one aspect of a look, but it’s definitely something where I see a lot of differences between some of the yorkies in the ring. It can sometimes be hard to really see the stop well because there might be a really poofy topknot, but in general when I’m looking at the face and taking it all in, it seems some have a much more flatter looking face than others and the stop is angled more sharply and in others not so much. There’s variance and I don’t know what’s correct.

10-28-2018, 02:49 PM	#4
yorkiemini Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: USA Posts: 4,285	If you go to the YTCA the Standards for the breed are there. AKC probably has the standard published as well. If you go,to a show any of the judges could answer questions as well. __________________ . Cali , and Cali's keeper and staff, Jay No, not a "mini" Yorkie - She loves to motor in her Mini Cooper car

11-15-2018, 09:40 PM	#8
lisaly Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 5,891	If you get a chance, you should PM YT member Gemy. She lives in Etobicoke and has been actively involved in showing both her Yorkie (who has his Canadian and American championships and his American Grand Championship) and her Black Russian Terriers. She worked extensively with judges to help them interpret the standard for Black Russian Terriers, which was a huge undertaking. Gail is a dear friend of mine who is very generous, genuine and kind. She is very committed to both breeds and is very knowledgeable. She usually goes to the Canadian Yorkie Specialty. I spent the day with her several years ago at the National Yorkie Specialty in Manhattan, and it was wonderful and fascinating. My last three Yorkies had shorter muzzles, and I loved everything about them. I think they were beautiful, even though they had more of a baby doll face. Their sire was a champion, but his muzzle was also very short. Katie was bred to standard, and her muzzle is longer, but she also is beautiful to me. I understand much more now why it is so important to maintain a standard in order to preserve the breed we love so much. I have adored each one of my Yorkies. I ended up getting Katie from Gail’s breeder because I knew that her breeder bred for health, conformation, and temperament, and I was terrified knowing all of the health issues Yorkies have. Katie had been one of her dogs that she had championed and retired at the age of three, and that is when she came into my life. Health and temperament are most important, but I also envision what a Yorkie should look like in my mind, and I don’t want that to evolve too much. The minute I hold them, I fall in love, and I don’t think it would matter what they look like. I really hope you enjoy your trip and the show. When I went to the National Specialty in Manhattan, it was about eight months after I lost my last Yorkie. Seeing all of those Yorkies was very therapeutic for me, and I also got to spend the day with a dear friend. __________________ *Lisa and* Katie *Ashley 6/10,* *Gracie 2/04,* Kiwi 10/03, and Jolie 7/93 . Last edited by lisaly; 11-15-2018 at 09:41 PM.

12-08-2018, 12:06 PM	#10
RV6APilot YT Addict Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Twin Lakes, SC Posts: 384	As we get ready for our little girl to come home I have been reading everything I can find on Yorkies. I know the YTCA and the AKC set the weight standard as less than 7lbs. Well how do we get yorkies that are 10-20lbs? Just curious as my brother has a yorkie that is 18lbs. I guess I am just curious as to how the "beefier" ones come about. 7 days and counting! __________________ Ron Proud dad to Le Femme Nikita. Came home 12/15/18

10-28-2018, 10:51 AM	#2
lilgidget YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: stanley nc Posts: 1,152	I don't really know anything about the standards for Yorkies. All I know is that I have a very loving, caring, affectionate little girl. Is she standard? Who cares? She brings me joy and peace when I need it the most. When I got her, I had no intention of breeding or showing her. I just needed a loving companion who can go with me when I leave the house. Love my little Gidget with all my heart.

10-28-2018, 09:08 PM	#5
airplane Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Canada Posts: 212	Yeah I may have to speak to some judges specifically about that. I was fortunate enough last year for my local kennel club to give me the job of picking up judges at the airport and taking them out for supper. And the judges seem to love talking about dogs, and when I mention yorkies I seem to get a very similar response from most the judges I spoke to. Namely that they don’t like seeing down-face yorkies, don’t like seeing baby doll faces, and they think yorkies are a breed that needs a lot of help. As soon as they started giving me their insights and opinions, I started creating a judges book. Lol. Just a book with the name of the judges and what their preferences are. Anyways, I was thinking about a very abrupt stop and how that’s one of the features of a so-called baby doll face. But it’s confusing to me because maybe that one feature is actually correct for the breed. It’s often seen in the ring. It seems very easy to interpret the Canadian standard that way. Just the diagrams throw me off when they mention a slight stop. I guess it’s kinda subjective but I was hoping someone with many years of familiarity with the breed could tell me a bit more of a definitive answer.

10-30-2018, 04:42 AM	#6
RV6APilot YT Addict Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Twin Lakes, SC Posts: 384	Airplane thanks for raising these questions. I too am reading all I can on the breed since we will be getting our pup in about 7 weeks(she is currently 5wks old). I have been to the YTCA site, but I guess I am trying to figure out the basis that they have set the standard on. What was the criteria in relation to the origin and today. Like you it won't make a difference in my pet, but also like you I am curious. Guess it is the engineer/scientist in me. Ron

11-15-2018, 09:19 AM	#7
airplane Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Canada Posts: 212	In case anyone was wondering, I think I found the answer. It’s what would be called a moderate stop. Not too abrupt or too slight either. On this webpage: Judging the Yorkshire Terrier by Dr There’s the interpretation that an abrupt stop goes hand in hand with a more rounded or dome shape to the skull, which of course is incorrect for the breed. This is something that kinda surprises me cause I always thought that a flattish type of skull could be had even with an abrupt stop. I swear I’ve seen yorkies with an abrupt stop with a squarish looking head that appears kinda flattish on the skull. But apparently not. Maybe it’s just a certain camera angle or something that’s given me that impression in those cases I think I saw that. Anyways, it seems the answer is the muzzle is at a 90 degree angle to just the head in general, not any particular part of the head. And also that the stop should be moderate so that way the skull won’t be too rounded or dome like in shape. A moderate stop should allow the top of the head (the skull) to still have some flatness to it.

11-18-2018, 04:01 AM	#9
airplane Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Canada Posts: 212	Thank you. And I’ll definitely for sure send a message and get in touch with Gail. I think it would be really nice to meet up with another YT member when I fly out to Toronto. There’s so many people I want to meet there: Kirsten McGregor (her grooming DVD’s helped me so much), Lilly Dewitte (if she’s there), Cathy Christensen, Loreta from Oz, Will Alexander (don’t think he’s showing a yorkie but he emailed me saying come up and approach him), and lots more. And I just want to have fun and see some beautiful yorkies who can make my heart skip a beat. I hope it will be therapeutic for me as it was for you. Losing Bijou and Maezie this year has been really tough. I don’t cry every day anymore, but the pain is still there.