Help with my dilemma?
 

Hello all, my baby Kupo is nearing his 6 month soon, and this means its time to neuter my sweet tiny baby...

I've been thinking though.. Is it really better for him to be neutered? I really want to get full AKC, but I'm not so sure..

Kupo has been humping things and lifting his leg since.. 11 weeks old... about a week after I got him.. lol.. well humping around 11 weeks and lifting around 3 months old.. So I doubt neutering will change his habbit now.

I also plan on getting a girl... either from the same breeder, or this other lady...
If it's from same breeder, she'd be half sister, if it's from other lady, they would not be related at all..
Ofc, if I was to get his half sister, I'd get him neutered, but there is a chance that she might not have enough girls...
If I can get a girl puppy from other lady, I def. do not want to get him neutered and want him to have babies.

I initially wanted to show Kupo, but since the last groomer butchered his hair into really short, shaved, summer cut, my chance is gone... but I'm working on his CGC and I plan on taking him to do his therapy or service dog classes, and I thought him being full AKC just sounds better, even if I had to pay a bit more extra for his title..

What do you guys think?

I do like the idea of having puppies from Kupo and his not-yet-known-gf, but the idea of my baby becoming a dad is kinda weird for me lol

[btw I have researched the pros and cons of neutering and breeding and all so please don't bash me.. T_T;)

As far as his butchered hair, it's just hair, it will grow back. Was he sold to you as a show/breeding prospect?

I would suggest getting a mentor to help you with showing and breeding. Breeding dogs is difficult and expensive (unless you don't want pups, then they seem to just spew them out lol)

Two books I recommend before even thinking about breeding:
Successful Dog Breeding: The Complete Handbook of...
Amazon
There is a lot of expensive and time involved with breeding. Puppies are adorable, until they start pooping and eating everything in sight. Puppy breath is wonderful - the stench of puppy poo, not so wonderful. Then, there are vet visits, vaccines, deworming, etc.

Don't forget prebreeding health tests on your dogs, too. Just going to a vet and getting a general exam won't cut it. Eyes, patellas, bile acid tests, etc.

Mama's personality will change while pregnant and nursing. If all goes well, she should be back to almost normal by the time you have placed the pups (at 12 weeks for toy breeds). Or, you could loose her to complications.

Really, really think this through before jumping in over your head. It is a major undertaking.

And, just because they're Kupo's pups, doesn't mean they will be little clones of him, either (in case you're just wanting another just like him). Each and every individual has their own temperament and personality. Also, if you are tempted to keep a pup you've bred, remember, s/he may or may not get along with his parents once grown. They usually do, but I have seen cases with others, and am living with a son my daughter kept from my breeding - she moved out, the pup didn't and he and his sire HATE each other. Yeah, that's been fun.

Seriously, really think about why you're wanting to breed. If it's just to have the experience of a litter, foster a pregnant mama from the shelter. The shelter will usually help with costs and you can see just how much work is involved. And, you'll be saving lives. If, after that, you still want to breed your dogs, search for a good mentor. It helps to have someone with you during the stressful hours while you wait and worry for those pups.

best wishes

I'm not getting into the breeding part, since I know nothing and would never do it. However, if you don't plan to breed your baby, it is better to have him neutered. First, you wouldn't have any "surprise" puppies that may not find a home. Second, look at the health reasons. From what my vet told me, Yorkies have a high tendency to have prostate problems if not neutered. Also have higher chance of testicular cancer if not neutered. We had our precious Zeus neutered at 6 months old. He was not lifting and humping before the surgery, so we have had no problems after surgery. I would recommend doing some online research yourself and talking with a vet about neutering. Sorry that I cannot offer any advice on AKC showing either. My Zeus is a valuable member of our family, but we don't intend to show him or breed him; so, the responsible thing to do was have him neutered.

Hello! I have a girl/boy that I plan on breeding if everything goes well. Mine are close to the age of Kupo and my girl who's older will be going in for her BAT testing next month. If you plan on breeding or it's something you plan on doing in the future with Kupo or his potential future mate I would hold off on sterilization.

Also really look into what breeding entails. Read as much as you can, contact breeders you trust who are willing to help you in your future plans, and look into breed specific health screenings which should be done prior to reproducing. The three which I consider a must are : BAT, Knees(OFA done at 1 years old), and have eye cerf. As far as his hair, it will grow back and fast! I shaved my pet yorkie's body in the fall and it's already floor length. Just give him 3-5 months and it will be fine I'm sure.

Needless to say breeding isn't cheap lol. I've spent over $3500 in the last 3 months on things i consider necessities for just these two pups and that doesn't even include their purchase price. If you want to do it and you know you're going to do it the right way hold off of neutering him and have him evaluated by more than one judge/showbreeder.

Look into getting the Bile Acid Test done if breeders/judges think he's a fine example then go from there. Last but not least don't get discouraged.

thanks for the replies guys :)

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@borderkelpie when kupo was sold, it just stated pet price at $$$$ and contact for breeding price or something... i can't really remember, it's been awhile.. lol but when i've contacted the breeder couple days ago, she says she she's not sure about the show, but he will "most defintely be a breeding quality".

i did the research on what kind of testing he has to do before mating, as well as the female, and know that the female's personality will change due to her hormone and might get even protective of her and her babies.

i'm also aware that kupo's puppies will not have same personality or temperament since nobody can be cloned lol. i honestly donno why some ppl think this way.. lol i mean everyone has different personalities, even humans.

but i never knew that there may be a conflict between the litter and the parents. was it because of the dominance issue?

i wanted to breed since i wanted kupo to experience being a father and him to live his life too. before i actually got kupo, my mom was in LOVE with him, since her favorite dog is yorkie, and was suggesting that i get him with full akc so he can have babies later.. lol i guess her wishes kinda got stuck on my head and i'm starting to like the idea x_x;

and.. as for shelter dogs... i'm not sure.. since i don't really see a yorkie or hypoallergenic dogs in the shelters my area. i've checked and most were pitbulls or whatnot.. and i'm extremely allergic to pet danders and so on.. :/ (one of the reason why i considered getting kupo <3)

@zeus is loved i've also looked into the pros and cons of neutering and keeping them intact. and apparently there really is no scientific proof of neutered dogs being that much healthy than those who are intact (from newer medical journals i read). i've also talked to my vet and she says since he's already humping and hiking his leg, having him neutered probably would not change this behavior much even if he gets neutered.. :/

i was actually looking to get him pediatric neutered when i just got him, but i was advised not to, since he was so small, and the vet wanted to neuter him at 6 months so he can have his puppy teeth extracted at the same time.. (before kupo started to hump and all).. but its kinda too late now lol

@colesmommy01 hello! it's been awhile, and thank you for responding to my post again lol. what's bat exactly? i was looking at this website for certain tests needed to be done (Canine Health Information Center: CHIC Information. i'm not really sure what else is supposed to be done. (still researching what exact tests are needed)

but 3.5k$? was that to test both the parents? or just one? i didn't know it'd get that much expensive O_o; is this supposed to be done whenever they are supposed to mate or just once? (can't seem to find that answer yet) and what does bile acid test do exactly? how does it relate to breeding?

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oh and guys please check out http://ellokupo.tumblr.com. temp pw is: kupokupo
what do you think of kupo guys? do you think he's good enough to breed? i've checked with the vet today, and he's currently 5.12lbs and about to be 5 months in 4 days. the vet says he's very healthy and in shape. his hair is still growing and his ears are both erect now.. and please ignore the song playing in the background.. i can't seem to find the right song to play on his page.. lol

cannot access your link, it is asking for a password.

@matese i've posted the pw right by the link lol
its kupokupo

A Bile Acid Test (BAT) tests how an individual dog's liver functions and performs and can rule out having Liver Shunt which is prevalent within the Yorkshire Terrier breed. Although, even if both parents have perfectly acceptable levels it doesn't mean they will never produce a pup who doesn't have a shunt. That being said, no one (imo) should breed a dog with liver shunt.

Brucellosis testing is also a test you may want to look into if you stud Kupo(I plan on having a closed breeding program, but if you don't make sure the bitch has had this test done). I think he's at a good weight. Is his topline level? It doesn't seem like he has an over/underbite from the pictures(i'm a stickler for a nice set of teeth).

Have you had anyone other than his breeder evaluate him? There are a few show breeders on this forum and they may be able to assist. Most of the ones I've spoken with ask to see the dog in a "stacked" position to better evaluate.

The $3,500 doesn't include testing ;). I haven't even had testing done yet lol. My female will have her first test in the next month and if all is fine I'll get OFA and so on. The cost comes from traveling to speak with show breeders, grooming supplies, classes, and starting to renovate the yorkie room to accommodate them. Now I know why some breeders have kennels lol.

*just wanted to add, not all breeders perform the tests I listed. I would do it to know what I'm working with and if it's work reproducing and covering my own butt...btw is that your son in the pic holding Kupo? He's handsome and will be fighting the ladies off with a stick when he grows up!

@colesmommy01 what do you mean *topline level*? but as for his bite, apparently he has a perfect bite, according to my vet and the breeder.. so far... he's still losing his puppy teeth and i think he needs one more from his front teeth atleast for his adult teeth to grow in.. lol
(i laughed so hard when he lost 2 front teeth at once.. he looked so derpy hahaha)

but what class do you need to breed? are you talking about classes like cgc?

@my oscar thank you! i'll make sure to tell him someone think he's super cute when he wakes up lol

just saw this part of the message lol. i've showed kupo to only one other breeder and she said that he looks really nice, but mentioned that he's behind on his hair... and that it would be hard for him to catch up. but he's def. high breeding quality.

Scroll all the way to middle of the page and it'll give examples of the "perfect" features of a Yorkshire Terrier. Unfortunately, there are no perfect specimens so you have to pick what'd you'd be okay breeding vs not breeding. Like for example my breeder's dogs had to have a good bite, nice earset, and level topline but she'd never breed a cottony coat unless all other physical attributes were astounding.


Yorkie, Yorkshire Terrier Photos

@colesmommy01 oh i saw something like this before. but i could never really tell... i'm now like looking back and forth from screen to kupo and he's like... what are you looking at... lol

but.. i guess he has a nice proportion... his ear seems to be ok.. not too far or not too close... head placement seems fine... and so does his muzzle.

oh i see what you mean by *topline* now. his back is pretty straight. :) and i think his tails are properly docked to good length.. and his legs seems good...

but then again, i may just see him as *perfect* since i love him lol. but my vet and breeders said he looked pretty good so i'm going by their words lol

Ditto !

Oh! I meant to add I think testing should be done every 2 years( I have to go look back at my notes). So if you had OFA/Cerf at 1 you would do it again at 3 years then 5. Bile Acids Testing I would do every year during a wellness exam to check liver functions anyway.

@maxdog :) thank you!

@colesmommy01 oh. ok thank you for the explanation :) you def. helped me alot.. :D
but.. now i'm kinda paranoid to see what his topline really is... i'm not sure anymore.. what does it look like to you? in his baby pic when he had fluffier hair, it looks straight, but since its all short and flat now i'm not sure. O-o;
(took forever to take his pic... ugh he wouldn't stay still)

[sorry the pics are blurr... yt wouldn't let me post the original size since they were so big and i had to crop them and make them bigger.. -_-]

First I find it strange that you talk about AKC and paying more. Is it that the breeder sold him to you without papers and if you want to register him with AKC on full registration which means you have breeding rights that she now wants more money from you? Strange way to do this if this is true.


But let me talk about your guy - if you want to be a breeder then you need to handle some honest critiques.


Here we go - in none of the photos is he stacked correctly - but given that what I can see in your pics are the following


Picture 1-3 shows that he is down on his pasterns particularly the front feet. And I feel that would be true even if stacked correctly.


Picture 2 shows a slightly roached back and Pic 3 shows a dip in the mid back - so neither one shows a level topline.


All pics show ears too large and too wideset. This in my opinion is a dog that should not be in the show ring - and therefor should not be bred.


I suspect that the dome of the top of the head is not level - but again hard to tell from these pics.


I would suggest you get a bile acids test done at 6months old whether you want to breed him or not. Liver shunt and MVD is very prevalent in this breed and we don't need more Yorkies suffering from either condition.


There are over 21 genetic conditions a Yorkie can suffer from - this is an extensive list don't you think?


I will try to take a look at the other pics in your album and see what I see.






All pics show me what looks very like a modified coat - not a silk coat. But pics can be deceiving. Very very major flaw.

@gemy i don't mind critiques, i'm trying to learn so all is welcome.

i originally bought kupo as limited akc, but he was also offered to buyers as breed quality. i was promised the limited akc paper after proving that he was neutered, but when i talked to my breeder about it later and she said they cost some more $$$, so i was considering to get him full akc instead.

i've tried to get him to be in proper picture, as my breeder requested today, but i can't seem to get kupo to stay still, since he just wants to run around and play. but looking at it now, it does seem like his back is slightly arched, but then again it seems straight in different angles so i'm kind of confused..

and er.. for his ears.. i was told by some that if his hair grows in, and i tip ear and all, it'd look smaller lol. i'm not sure if this is true or not.

*dome of the head* how am i supposed to tell if its leveled or not?

please check out http://ellokupo.tumblr.com temp pw is kupokupo. i've posted some of his pictures there.

and as for his hair, its definitely turning silky, his head hair is changing and so is his body's. he's still only 4 and i was told that it takes some time for yorkie's hair to change to his adult coat (upto a year i think..... no?)

sorry for lots of questions and thanks in advance. :)

No problem at all. Love the questions. Well if you could do a short video of him moving I might be able to tell more. Wide ear set can not be hid - well actually some do try to hide it in the show ring - but not that wide apart....


I looked at his album and I saw same same for his coat. If you look at his legs which are a good indicator they are pretty full for his age and look fluffy. But coat texture is the hardest to tell through pics.


I will link for you in next post my GCH Razzle video - it will show him at 3 months old and up - but in his young pics look at the muzzle his legs and his coat.


And by no means is he perfect just a very good representative of the breed and a multi champion.

Yay Gemy's here!!!!! Ok, I just wanted to say that it is rather odd that your breeder originally sold Kupo on limited then later said you can register him for full registration for more money. I thought from your original post she would lift the limited if he was proven as breed/show worthy but not for more money.

Honestly, I think that's a crock. Either he'd be show worthy or not and she'd sell him to the appropriate home based on his eligibility. Whether it be show home or pet. She wouldn't say if you give me x amount of money I'll give you breeding rights.

Unfortunately, I can't comfortably critique Kupo since I'm just getting into breeding/showing myself. Judging by pictures when not stacked is really difficult for experienced show breeders let alone a newbie like myself.

@gemy, My phone... actually have no space left for me to film vids with.. :/ I forgot to buy sd card for this phone after losing my other one and it's been filled with documents for schools and such.. lol

As for Kupo's coat, groomers were telling me that it's starting to be silky. (been seeing them since he was 12 weeks old) and I can feel the difference between now and back then. But that's your puppy in the video? He's really pretty.

And... so you think Kupo shouldn't breed at all? Honestly, my heart felt like it sunk to the bottom when I read that.. :/

@colesmommy01, Oh, I didn't know if that was weird... it was first time me buying a dog from a breeder, and dealing with AKC at all... I thought that was the norm... lol T_T;

I just sent the breeder new pics of Kupo, and she agrees now that he looks like his back is slightly curved, but also stated that he should make a great stud with the right female and that he "has the potential to throw show pups"... what does that sound like to you?

I'm now confused with all this and I feel as if Kupo is not good enough to breed at all.. :/ and now I'm paranoid about his back and worried if something will happen to it.. T_T;

This is just my experience but the breeder I bought my male from had the pups priced as either limited or full registration. If it was a full registration a pup would cost x amount regardless if it was a male or female same pricing rules applied for limited registration. Full registration pups have to be shown in agility or conformation.

A friend of mine flew with me to pick up my male's littermate and her pup's codes for full registration had already been blacked out by the breeder. There was no going back on whether or not she could breed her pup. The breeder had already made the decision prior to selling and told any potential buyers that if they wanted her she'd be limited registration and possibly already spayed.

Imo any purebred has the potential to throw show quality pups, but your chances are more likely if the sire/dam are show quality themselves. I would not breed a dog with a roach back, under/overbite, cotton coat, or tempermemt issues that don't fit the stereotypical terrier personality.

@colesmommy01, oh that's what i meant too.. when i was buying kupo, he was listed as *this amount as pet[limited akc] or contact for breed/show price[full akc]*. Kupo's dad was a champion so he was championsired and his mom's mom and dad was champion and championsired.. (not sure what i'd call his mom lol).

um... and 2nd paragraph.. i'm not getting it.. sorry my english is bad... read it over and over again and i'm not fully understanding it.. T_T; are you saying that eventhough you were trying to get full registration, breeder backed out and told you she'll HAVE to be limited and get the puppy spayed? and what did you mean by "had already been blacked out by the breeder?"

ok deleted some files and got some space for a short clip of kupo.
here's the link.
Kupo

Lol no biggie, I get ahead of myself at times. The second paragraph just meant that when my friend and I contacted our breeder and told her what we were looking for(I was looking for show potential whereas my friend wanted strictly a pet).

The breeder said "I have pups a & b who I consider show potential and they will have to be shown in agility or conformation. For pets I have pups c & d and they'll be limited registration with no breeding rights and may already be sterilized by pick up day.

For AKC registration packets there's a code for full registration that breeders will mark/cut out if the pet is to be sold limited with no breeding rights. The breeder marked out my friend's puppy's code in her packet since she was sold as a pet but left my pup's code since he'll be shown.

@colesmommy01 oh.. lol ok. i get it..thanks for the clarification

but did you see the vid? how bad do you think kupo is? i'm kinda worried now and even considering contacting a vet again soon to check out his back.. or am i just over reacting..? i mean she did say that he was very healthy and now i'm like.. wut... something is wrong with his back? T_T_T_T_T_;

Let me hope I can do my reply before my puter freezes again. Don't worry about the roach it is mild and should not case future health problems.


But he is definitely down on his pasterns. How much exercise does he get daily? He also looks like he is sickle hocked. Maybe he felt restricted with the leash on him?


The ears are what they are. But in this video his coat color looks very dark.


I am so glad you came to us asking questions - it shows that you care for the breed and want to do the right thing !


I think this dog is not show quality and wont or should not make it in the show ring and well should not be bred based on his structure/movement and what I have seen of his coat.


I am a show breeder with strict requirements prior to breeding. The very best advice I can give at this point is find another reputable show breeder and have them evaluate your dog.


Neuter or not your decision - but keeping a dog intact is a different question as to whether or not to breed this dog. For most breeds and again I caution there are no peer reviewed studies on specifically YORKIES and the effect of neutering - but the single most negative thing is BPH Benign Prostate Hypertrophy which may or may not cause problems later on in life. their is a very slight risk of increased testicular cancer - again dealt with by neutering. The studies so far on males are basically for health alone somewhat equal as to benefits and risks of neutering.


But know that you need to keep every intact dog safe from breeding - that is your responsibility over the lifetime of your pet. Know how to do this and then do it!