Originally Posted by pstinard (Post 4552197)

That was brilliant! I was thinking about the same thing, but you beat me to it. I did email the Skeptvet and asked him to write a blog reviewing the Nutriscan test and Dr. Dodds' book Canine Nutrigenomics, and he wrote back and said that was on his "to do" list.

Originally Posted by dottiesyrky (Post 4552187)

Thank you for your diligent efforts in researching this and other papers and references. I agree, a fully completed study reported in an approved journal would be ideal. However, for example, I have IBS which I have not been able to get cured yet and if I were the one who was cured by a partially completed research and unpublished study I would be over the moon. Many of the treatments that have helped me a little have been from the non traditional medicine sources!! As for the cost, I would pay what it cost if the treatment worked for me. What we pay for treatment and meds is up to us and we have to make our own judgement as to what it is worth to us.
I think it important to note that research into physical/scientific subjects (my interest and experience) is so much easier to quantify, control and prove than those in medical animal subjects that have many and sometimes uncontrolled variables. Thank you again for all your literature review efforts, I know that is very time consuming!!

Originally Posted by pstinard (Post 4552214)

Thanks. It is time consuming :). If all conventional methods didn't work, then I would certainly consider unconventional methods as a last resort. Dr. Dodds is providing easy (but expensive) methods, and is suggesting them as a first resort. I'm concerned that it might cause people to bypass methods that are more tried and proven, but perhaps more difficult (such as elimination diets). I'm a little frustrated, because Dr. Dodds has tested hundreds, if not thousands, of dogs with Nutriscan, and surely she has data on the test's accuracy and success rate that could be subjected to peer review and published. If the data are published and vetted by veterinary medical experts, then the test may very well pass from unconventional to conventional. Until then, though, I'm left scratching my head.

Originally Posted by 107barney (Post 4552220)

Maybe the data isn't favorable to her position.

Originally Posted by 107barney (Post 4552220)

Maybe the data isn't favorable to her position.

Originally Posted by gemy (Post 4551769)

Can you please pm me the info. . If not I will pm my email to you so you can send it to me please

Originally Posted by pstinard (Post 4552214)

Thanks. It is time consuming :). If all conventional methods didn't work, then I would certainly consider unconventional methods as a last resort. Dr. Dodds is providing easy (but expensive) methods, and is suggesting them as a first resort. I'm concerned that it might cause people to bypass methods that are more tried and proven, but perhaps more difficult (such as elimination diets). I'm a little frustrated, because Dr. Dodds has tested hundreds, if not thousands, of dogs with Nutriscan, and surely she has data on the test's accuracy and success rate that could be subjected to peer review and published. If the data are published and vetted by veterinary medical experts, then the test may very well pass from unconventional to conventional. Until then, though, I'm left scratching my head.

Originally Posted by 107barney (Post 4552207)

I also asked him to write a review of the book. I also asked Dr. Remillard to review the book. She said they wrote a chapter in a vet text on nutrition about canine nutrigenomics so she said it would make an interesting comparison. I am not sure when she will get to it.

Originally Posted by gemy (Post 4552268)

Great work Cathy. Because the more and clearer the information is out there the better it is for pet owners to make truly informed decisions at least with respect to this Nutriscan test.


And I am pretty dang sure she has hundreds if not thousands of dogs that were tested and then some % applied the test results successfully (or not) with the dogs. How-ever she would have needed to set up a clinical trial that would provide meaningfull information once the data was collected and a control group etc etc etc.

Originally Posted by 107barney (Post 4552200)

I wanted to come back to this as I definitely misunderstood it the first time. I was under the impression that you provided conventional medical care for your animals and that your holistic vet was an adjunct. It is clear from this post that I misunderstood you. So, you have a holistic vet who uses herbs. He is a "minimalist" with vaccines and medicines. In all but one case w/ Kiwi, you used holistic medicine not conventional.

That's fine, that's your choice. Katie is a young dog, and I hope for her sake you are doing core vaccination, heartworm prevention and flea/tick prevention. I hope she has an annual physical exam and routine lab work. It isn't my business how you take care of your dogs, and they obviously have lived very long lives and are most definitely greatly loved and valued by you in the same way I value and love my dogs.

I guess I have some concerns w/ the disappointment you had w/ conventional medicine. Reading your post, you state that one of your dogs had developed kidney problems after being on enalapril for congestive heart failure. I am not a vet, so I cannot speak definitively on this issue, but it is my understanding that Enalapril and other ACE inhibitors are used to delay the onset of CHF. These ACE inhibitors are unlikely to cause kidney damage, in fact, they are widely prescribed by veterinary specialists for dogs w/ certain kidney disease like protein losing nephropathy. My own dog has PLN, and has been on an ACE inhibitor for about 4 years, with normal kidney values.

Unfortunately, congestive heart failure in dogs creates fluid problems which impact the kidney more so than the medications. Nowadays, CHF is treated with newer drugs like Viagra, Pimobenden, and maintaining fluid buildup with lasix. My dog has severe atrial enlargement and is on a tiny dose of an ACE inhibitor. There is no consensus from the ACVIM for my dog's treatment for the stage of heart disease he has, but his cardiologist has chosen to add the ACE inhibitor. This decision was also backed by his internist that is seeing him for collapsing trachea and bronchial compression.

That brings me to your next point about Collapsing Trachea. There is no better anti-inflammatory than corticosteroids. I have concerns about long term use of them, but again, small doses, and newer medications like Temiril-P can really keep symptoms at bay. My dog Barney who I referenced above about heart disease has had a very mild grade CT his whole life. Now that his heart is enlarged, it is causing some pressure on his bronchial stem and the area of narrowing of his trachea seems more pronounced. The trajectory of the disease in a now almost 15 year old dog will not be such that he will every really be a severe case. His heart is likely to do him in before the trachea every does and my worst fear is that the chordea tendonae will bust and he will die on the road to Boston before I can have his vets help him to his final rest.... But, while he is alive, I have had to come away from long held concerns about using steroids and broncho-dialators and cough suppressants. He will need some combo of these for the rest of his life. His potassium may jump from his ACE inhibitor, but if it does, Dr. Remillard who is a vet nutritionist will alter his diet to remove some potassium from his daily intake (he takes in quite a bit from sweet potatoes).

I guess what I am saying in a long winded way here is that medications have their place and the prescribers have decades of experience using these medications in certain dosages to preserve the health of the dog and improve their quality of life. I'm sorry you felt like conventional medicine did not do enough for your dogs. Perhaps you needed a specialist, with more specific training and clinical experience to titrate the drugs properly and in a minimal way where you would have been comfortable. Conventional vets have done plenty for my animals, also living long lives, and I hope even longer. I would never go to a holistic vet as a stand-alone person. I don't believe in their testing methodologies and don't need to listen to soft music piped into the waiting room while sipping an organic tea. My flavor is more like a cup of coffee, wifi, and the smell of broad spectrum microbicide filling the air so I know I'm in a hospital that stands ready and capable to take care of my animals. If they are integrative vets, then at least I know they are delivering some aspect of allopathic medicine and testing.

I hope Katie never gets sick. But if she does, I hope you will never rely fully on untested theories, herbs, and a guy you really like when she may really need the conventional veterinarian on her case.

Originally Posted by Verbena (Post 4552289)

The replacement of herbs with synthesized or synthetic drugs is actually new, less then a century old. This is due to drug companies not being able to patent commonly used plants. These pharmaceutical companies employ chemists that can develop synthetic drugs to replace the plant. . . . Which is a billion plus industry.


Here are some of the few of the many plants that are used now . . . .

from Cinchona pubescens also known as the anti-malarial quinine. 10,000 tons of bark is harvested annually to make quinine.

In cancer treatment, the drug Paclitaxel (Taxol) a derivative of the Pacific yew Taxus brevifolia, is used in chemotherapy.

The Madagascar periwinkle Catharanthus roseus, is the source of vinblastine and vincristine, alkaloids used respectively in the treatment of Hodgkin’s disease and pediatric leukemia.

Senna alexandrina, a shrubby perennial native to Arabia, was introduced as a laxative to Europe by Arab physicians in the ninth century. You can find senna in many drugstore laxative products today.

Mentha (mint) species are the natural sources of menthol, an aromatic alcohol which is also known as peppermint camphor. Menthol is an active ingredient in topical preparations to relieve itching and as a mild local anesthetic to soothe soreness and ease muscular tension. Menthol is commonly used in lozenges for sore throats, and is added to inhalers to treat upper respiratory disorders and open congested sinuses.

Peppermint oil, which can still be found in drugstores, is a centuries-old remedy for quelling an upset stomach. Studies show that peppermint oil when taken internally can relieve irritable bowel syndrome.

Gaultheria procumbens, or wintergreen, is a source of methylsalicylate, which is widely used in topical ointments and liniments to relieve muscular pain, and for lumbago, sciatica and rheumatic conditions.

Papaver somniferum, the opium poppy, yields a sap of narcotic opium, from which the potent pain killer morphine is made. Seeds and capsules discovered in the four thousand year old archaeological remains of Swiss lake-dwellers suggest the use of the plant for its narcotic juice. Simultaneously, opium and its products heroin and morphine established themselves among drug users and in the field of medicine. Both uses continue to this day. In modern medicine, morphine and its analogues remain unsurpassed pain killers.

Digitalis purpurea, the purple foxglove, is a popular garden plant cultivated as a source of digitoxin, a cardiac drug which increases the strength of heart beat while decreasing its rate. The plant was recommended for medicinal purposes in the seventeenth century, and has appeared in the French Pharmacopoeia since its first printing in 1818. Digitoxin is used in the treatment of congestive heart failure and other cardiac disorders. Digitalis lanata, the woolly foxglove, is cultivated commercially as a source of digoxin, a cardiotonic used for the same purposes as digitoxin.


Plants and their derivatives are currently the sources for thousands of drugs worldwide. I agree that i doesn't mean that they are all safe or without side effects. Certain parts from the plants like morphine are toxic due to their concentration strength. Small amounts of any can be benefical in a clinical setting. It is good to remember sometimes with medicine . .any you take can be poison with the dose.



Here is some of a list of plants that are used in drugs

Drugs from Plants - Ethnobotany and Chemistry



Again please . . Open your minds.

Remember something you may take every day. . .

Salicin, Willow (salix) bark, which breaks down to become Salicylic Acid or you know as . . . Aspirin

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88 (Post 4552297)

Until they start to test them to the extent as regular medicine and list the warnings and stuff regular medicine will be safer. It's not a closed minded thing. And really all this has nothing to do with a test that has no science to back it up or even syliva testing having no science to back it up. I guess talking about holistic mecdicine brought this up. Even if that herbs and such work it dosent make this test work.