Sad day for America

[LadyGemma]

Originally Posted by Opium88

Well, the trainer comes back from her vacation soon and she said we will work with Toby on this. If the situation doesn't improve I will most definitely give him to ladyjane. I don't know anyone out here that is as mindful of their dogs as yorkies require (vet visits etc) to feel comfortable enough in handing him over... And he really needs a yard cause he has so much energy and even though we always take them out to the park and let them run themselves exhausted, which is enough for izzy, it's never enough for Toby. And we live in a small loft. So he could probably use a little more space. It's really hard to think of giving him up, but if he isn't happy I will. And regarding what LovetoDream said about people always wanting to re home the problem one- I have never even considered that with any dog before now. And this time it isn't because I don't want to deal with his issues, it's because I don't want him hurting izzy and getting hurt himself. Not because I find him a problem.i don't half ass my responsibilities with animals. I had my pit bull, Chewy, for 17 1/2 years before I i made the decision to put him down. That's a long life for a pit bull for one, so I obviously took care of him well, and I had him his entire life. So no, I don't have a habit of giving up on my dogs. But if it comes to that being a better option for Toby , yes, I will drive him to Houston. And yes, I'll drive the entire 12 hours myself instead of doing the easier thing like sending him on a plane. I actually volunteer at the animal shelter here and I'm not ignorant to the issue of perfectly good animals being euthanized senselessly because of people who can't think past themselves. I am not one of those people. But if the situation isn't going to be a happy home life for either dog I will look past my own wants to the option of giving Toby a chance at something better. I'm not perfect and no one here can say they are either. But I am not a self absorbed person that believes passing off my animals is the easy option either.

Is there another trainer or animal behaviorist you can work with until then. Or does she have an associate? The longer it goes on, the more it will build. I hope you can work it out, and if not, I wish Toby luck in his new life with LadyJane

[yorkiemini]

Generally it takes longer to unlearn a behavior than to learn a new one.....so patients is going to be a big thing as you deal with this pups issues!

Wishing you all the best!

[BorderKelpie]

I do wish all the best. Please keep us updated either way. If you do decide to work things through, would you mind posting methods and results (sort of a journal type thing, perhaps). That would help in several ways actually. You'll have a record of what's working and what's not, a general time frame of results, a way to mentally review what's going on and we can snoop through it and learn as well.

I keep training journals on my guys so I can review and revamp as needed. Sure beats trying to remember what was going on when something didn't work so I can go back and modify if needed.

Best wishes.

[Opium88]

You know, so far that we've seen the only time Toby fixates and gets actually aggressive towards izzy is when there is a chew toy such as a rawhide, or hoof or antler involved. He doesn't act anywhere near that aggressive over stuffed toys or squeakies. I mean they've always play fought with each other, and every once in a while one would get the other to yelp loud and then they'd stop for a few seconds and play on. And he's always fixated on whatever she happens to be playing with, but not to the degree as with the hooves or antlers and such. And as soon as he gets whatever it is, he doesn't care about it any more. Only cares when she has it. He isn't real good at sharing with the class. And we always buy two of everything to try and avoid this.
I'm gonna look for another trainer who is here in the city to work with him regarding his aggression towards grooming. Maybe I'll just add this to their plate. I gotta go. He's taunting me with his stuffed bat and wants me to chase him so he can run across the living room like he's on fire. Lol

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by Opium88

You know, so far that we've seen the only time Toby fixates and gets actually aggressive towards izzy is when there is a chew toy such as a rawhide, or hoof or antler involved. He doesn't act anywhere near that aggressive over stuffed toys or squeakies. I mean they've always play fought with each other, and every once in a while one would get the other to yelp loud and then they'd stop for a few seconds and play on. And he's always fixated on whatever she happens to be playing with, but not to the degree as with the hooves or antlers and such. And as soon as he gets whatever it is, he doesn't care about it any more. Only cares when she has it. He isn't real good at sharing with the class. And we always buy two of everything to try and avoid this.
I'm gonna look for another trainer who is here in the city to work with him regarding his aggression towards grooming. Maybe I'll just add this to their plate. I gotta go. He's taunting me with his stuffed bat and wants me to chase him so he can run across the living room like he's on fire. Lol

If these were my dogs I would be sure to get a trainer who trains me to train my dog or else the training will "wear off" if I don't know how to effect the behaviors I want. And we all want a trainer who understands this type of problem usually involves a layered approach if we really want to retrain the dog's behavior rather than just prevent bad behavior or give them time outs, which is just punishment and doesn't train a dog what to do in a given circumstance.

The first layer of training must involve getting control of our dogs, teaching each how to control his impulse for instant gratification for greater reward later and teaching each of them to stay when we give the command, among the basic obedience commands. Make the training upbeat and fun, keep it short and frequent. That will be very important as we get into the desensitization training over resources. We need dogs that are able to control themselves and know how to do it.

But for now - prevention is all we can do until we have undergone a couple of months of directed retraining. We buy two of everything if we want but I would never allow them out together with any resources - even if there is one apiece - anywhere near either of them until they have had pretty extensive re-training. We want to try getting a hold on this quickly so as to never allow them any resources out on the floor or food in bowls to fight over because fighting will become a bad habit very quickly unless we have one of them restrained or crated in the same room with his own private goodies/distractions to enjoy. The key to avoiding fighting when they are out together and prevent stealing resources is to take up those resources - toys, chewies, food - even a stray piece of paper - until they learn they can get along with more equitability and are slowly desensitized to the other having a resource without triggering the other to instantly want it.

Why would he do that? Because we teach him something else to do instead - something which he feels is more rewarding and more fun for him in the long run, gives him more positive reinforcement. Why would he do that? Because a good dog handler can motivate his dog to want to control his impulses in order to please us more than anything by a program of learning his trainer is always there for him, is always gentle, highly motivational and trustworthy and will see to it that the dog always wins BIG TIME if he does what his owner/trainer wants. Even if his replacement behavior is to just go to his bed(which has a small, treat-filled kong in it the first five training sessions) and wait, he'll soon learn that if he does that, we will come over and praise, give him a piece of luscious chicken and clap our hands, dance around and praise him in that tone of voice he loves. He'll learn he gets that every time.

And believe me, with very careful, thoughtful, directed re-training and continuing education that slowly desensitizes each dog to the other having the right to a resource while the other is in the same room, in a crate with kong-filled chicken, as the crate is slowly moved every few days ever closer to the dog with the resource; or restrained by us on a piece of furniture, corner of the room, while with chicken is being fisted before his nose, any dog can be taught to focus on something else while he learns to control his impulse to steal another resource for himself, at first because he learns quickly that a bird in the paw is worth two in the bush AND that we will ALWAYS step in and stop him, stand and stare him down, wait until he backs off and leaves, should he try to go toward the other dog's resource.

The instigator dog will learn it always ends the same - he never wins as long as he tries to steal because we always stop him. But in a few days of just using chicken in the fist as bait during the other dog's enjoying his toy/chewie while the other is restrained with us crouched before him, hands outstretched or kept on a couch/chair, corner of the room, teaching him that now that he gets to win, too, as long as he instead goes into some type of replacement behavior whenever his pack member is enjoying a resource across the room - whatever that is that we want him to do - and waits for his serial pieces of chicken treats, big praises and a "party" where we celebrate his good behavior for controlling himself and staying with that new behavior. Before long, he can do it while we gradually move a ways away from him - or across the room, as he learns to ignore the other dog, focus on us, perform his replacement behavior and wait to win big.

This layer of the training takes many, many, many short, happy, firm but upbeat repetitions throughout the day and evening for about two weeks, then cutting down to 2 - 3 daily for the next two months, rewarding the behavior we want with praises, celebrations, his favorite food and turning away from the dog with an "uh oh" "ugh" "yuck" - blah sounds - showing him our backs when he gets it wrong(negative feedback), stopping and standing him down, backing him off if he tries to steal. Eventually, the dog has to even learn to go into his new behavior while WE go over and play with the other dog and his resource!!! How? Step at a time. Of course, that's months away but when it happens, that's a huge party of rewards when he goes into his replacement behavior.

He soon learns he like the big celebrations the wins - the rush of good endorphins he gets from the positive reinforcement, finding it much better than the negative feedback - the blahs. He's not perfect - no one is - but he works to try to always get the win.

In time, we slowly, gradually lessen those celebrations until he's just habituated into going into his replacement behavior out of learning how fun it is for him to please us - his leader, together with sheer acceptance, repetition and habituation. Later, in their brains, they just replace that instinct and desire to rob the other of his resource with the learned behavior - whatever we teach the dog to do instead. Dogs can be trained out of their bad impulses and instincts given the proper trainer/owner, sufficient motivation and reward, reasonable time, patience and right kind of training demeanor and technique, as long as he sees he's going to come out better in the long run.

Whatever we teach a dog, he's got to feel he winds up winning in the end in order to find sufficient motivation to learn it and stay with it. That's where a good, devoted dog owner/trainer comes in - they are ALWAYS there to be sure their dog wins big in his mind until he's become totally habituated to his new learned behavior. And a good owner/trainer always does find a way to frequently repay his good dog for his new, replacement behavior - even it's the 10,000th time he's done it, even if every so often we get up off our comfy couch during a great book or movie and celebrate what a good dog he is.

And do get that Tamar Giller book - it's a fun read and great way to learn how to manage and bond with our dogs, all the while enjoying their total respect, trust and love.