Using a spray bottle of water while training aggressive behavior, good or bad method

[matese]

Originally Posted by chachi

Sometimes people take things too far though and I think that needs to be noted on here. One time a member was putting bitter apple in the spray bottle and spraying it in the dogs face. You shouldnt be doing anything to hurt the dog you should only be using the spray bottle or can of change to divert the dogs attention from barking or whatever behavior you want to stop you want to cause them to pause not hurt

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

Yeah I think one person was putting vinegar in it when it was talked about awhile ago.

That's insane, bitter apple, vinegar!!!! are they trying to blind their pups? I'm not crazy about the water spray, but I saw how Cody stopped after the 2nd spritz, what was the reason these ppl had to add bitter apple and another vinegar gezzzzzz

[MarkFromSea]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

Then how can you say they shouldn't be fearful of it and that it's no louder then children playing?

For your two questions: 1. used properly, they shouldn't be fearful of it and 2, I never said any such thing but I'll add to that, kids playing can be pretty darn loud. Usually, the louder my kids were, the more fun they were having. So, that in of itself is not necessarily a bad thing. When they were quiet... LOL that was when we had to watch out! LOL

Enough of cans and pennies.. this thread was about the use of a water spray bottle. Use the spray bottle to enforce/associate with a voice command.... it's that simple!

[Rachael1983]

I've used both. You have to do what works for the dog.

My vet said something very interesting about training small dogs. We treat them like babies and not dogs. That's why you will see that a larger breed dog may be easier to train compared to a small dog. I think there's some truth in there somewhere.

[matese]

Originally Posted by Rachael1983

I've used both. You have to do what works for the dog.

My vet said something very interesting about training small dogs. We treat them like babies and not dogs. That's why you will see that a larger breed dog may be easier to train compared to a small dog. I think there's some truth in there somewhere.

Thank you Rachael, I spoil my babies rotten, however, all my past girls were well behaved. Years back I thought small dogs didn't need training until, one of my puppies at 8 months old got loose while I was on a camping trip. She took off into the woods with me right behind her, crying and hysterical. The more I chased the faster she ran. I stopped, picked up a branch, shouted out for her to fetch, that caught her attention, I threw the branch behind me and caught her as she passed by me to get the branch. That day I learned all dogs, size matters not need to be trained, need to obey. I was a lucky gal that day that this lil critter came to fetch. My babies are dogs that need to behave and obey. Cody is 3 y/o, I believe his prev. owner did not allow him to socialize with other dogs. For his safety he needs to stop being aggressive when he sees other dogs. I saw how 2 sprays from a water bottle stopped him. I am not fond of the spraying of water on him, but it worked, if I have to use it I will. Tomorrow he has his training session, I will see how he behaves, he will remember that water bottle. Thanks for your input.

[navillusc]

That is a bit of a conundrum, but I wouldn't want to 'train in' an unwanted behavior while trying to 'out train' an unwanted behavior either.

I tried the 'spray bottle correction' very briefly once...a long time ago...on kitties. The 'success' was almost instaneous, however, what I 'successfully' trained them to do was freeze/crouch and/or run in fear of the spray bottle, or any bottle resembling it. After a day or two...meaning less than a half-dozen harmless, misty spritzes...I trashed the idea completely. I had much better luck with them with subtle corrections...'gushing' over them when 'good' and nearly no response except for very subtle repetitive 'corrections'...like removing them from places they were not allowed...which worked much better and without making them 'neurotic' and fearful in the process.

My personal preference to training is subtle correction by simple repetition...me, doing the same things over and over with/to them, including using the same words in every instance, every time I want them to do something, with distractions and diversions for 'exciting nuisances' etc. I find that passive training works very well with lots of animals. I have done very active training, too, but while not all seem to respond well to active training, it seems to me that all I have trained responded very well and long term to passive (consistently repetitive) training.

I think, instead of a spray bottle, I would want some 'positive distraction' (food/treat, squeaky toy, etc.) to pull attention TO me and AWAY from other dogs. He might do better if he thinks "reward" when he sees another dog.

Good luck. I hope the issue can be quickly resolved.

[matese]

treats & praise were used on the 2 sessions and the 3rd session first the treat, praise, then the trainer used the spray bottle, after 2 passes past the minipin he went after the other dog, he got sprayed. The 3rd pass he didn't even look at the minipin, he looked at the trainer who held the sprayer. I don't think he'll get sprayed today (today is session day) as long as he sees that bottle. If and when I have to leash walk him I will take the bottle. Command word does not work when he gets 6 feet away from the minipin, it works at 10 feet distance, but the closer I get to the other dog, Cody goes bonkers. The spray bottle would only be used on leash walks IF he goes into Cujo mode. I would rather he fears a bottle then have him injured even killed with is insane aggressive behavior when he sees another dog. Vet visits and trips to the Pet stores are the worse, many dogs. Thanks for your input. Everyone's advise, suggestions, tips, may not work for me and the behavior I am trying to correct, but could help others that may read this thread. Again thank you.

[AZME]

Originally Posted by matese

When Cody gets into his Cujo mode he hears nothing, and has nipped at me more then once (which I have pretty much stopped that) while he is in this very embarrassing frenzy if I were to touch him he would snap at me, not to bite me, momma, but to stop who ever / whatever is trying to prevent him from getting at what he is in a frenzy over, which is another dog. I usually pull him away from what is causing this. This extreme action happened only once several weeks ago while I was at the vets office.

My Louis who was a found dog at 4 could do the "Cujo" so I know exactly what you mean. Unfortunately I wasn't a member here then and had the wealth of knowledge that this place offers. I thought that he was going crazy as in I am small you are big and I am going to show you that I am not afraid and you better not mess with me. I thought of it as him puffing out his feathers so to speak. He eventually learned to hang with some of my friends bigger and docile pooches, his best friend was a yellow lab and they traveled cross country in a car together. My command was "be nice" I didn't think to reinforce it with a treat but now I wished I had. Lou would still go "Cujo" on rare occasions and in those times I think it was a gut thing…he felt threatened and reverted to that behavior. I think that is something that happens to all of us in times of serious stress we may revert to a behavior that we thought we had corrected. I am going to work diligently socializing my new little guy when I get him. This is a great thread and great feedback. I too like the positive method of training.

[matese]

Originally Posted by AZME

My Louis who was a found dog at 4 could do the "Cujo" so I know exactly what you mean. Unfortunately I wasn't a member here then and had the wealth of knowledge that this place offers. I thought that he was going crazy as in I am small you are big and I am going to show you that I am not afraid and you better not mess with me. I thought of it as him puffing out his feathers so to speak. He eventually learned to hang with some of my friends bigger and docile pooches, his best friend was a yellow lab and they traveled cross country in a car together. My command was "be nice" I didn't think to reinforce it with a treat but now I wished I had. Lou would still go "Cujo" on rare occasions and in those times I think it was a gut thing…he felt threatened and reverted to that behavior. I think that is something that happens to all of us in times of serious stress we may revert to a behavior that we thought we had corrected. I am going to work diligently socializing my new little guy when I get him. This is a great thread and great feedback. I too like the positive method of training.

I am so glad this thread is helping other ppl. There is so much excellent advise, suggestions, tips, that I am so happy to have received and am considering everything after Cody's sessions are finished and he still has this bad behavior. If you get your little guy you should have no problem socializing him, this has to be done when they are puppies, after all shots are given and he can be taken out. Let him meet and play with all dogs he may meet. The prev. owners obviously did not allow this. I am sure I know the reason why. So now I have the Cujo dog. He is PERFECT in everything thing else, follows commands at home, it's when he is out and about and sees other dogs that he behaves like a spoiled brat. IDK if he had a bad experience with a dog / dogs when he was with his prev. owners. Rescuing / adopting is soooo rewarding, bad thing is they come with baggage, and we usually do not know what that was, so to find the cure for bad issues is trial and error. Thank you for your story on your 4 y/o found baby. At least he was able to bond and trust some dogs. Yorkies are big dogs in small bodies, and I agree they have "you are bigger then me, but don't mess with me attitude" I will do all that I can to control this behavior, this is a safety issue for Cody and any other dog with this type of behavior, and has to be very stressful on my pup to get so upset around other dogs. I would like a 100 % happy baby, their lives with us are so short, I want all happy times for him.

[Graneet]

Well i have been trying the spray bottle thing. I do not aim for the face. What it does is make them stop and look. Breaking the insanity. Now i dont have to do it but once and they stop. For simple noise barking. Not the insane barking yet. I for one like it . I cannot jump up to stop them. I am noticing an improvement ever so slite. I can threaten them by showing the bottle and they look at me waiting to see what i will do. Hince no barking. Now would i rather be able to stop them with a signal yes but for now this helps. As i said its aimed for their side or rump. I am trying the bark and quiet bark. My three year old knows what bark means a does it. Poor boo just think its no fair princess is getting treats. He has no clue. So going to train them seperatly. My yorky is super smart tho. Heres hoping it works.

[gracielove]

First of all I am against taking a small dog like the OP's into an obedience class full of untrained dogs and owners with larger dogs. Your little dog is at a total disadvantage and has now taken on another bad attitude toward the people and the dogs there. This is no way to deal with a dog that has issues. You are instilling fear, and the dog is not learning any good attitude changes.

I am whole heatedly for obedience class for Yorkies but it should be done by someone with much terrier experience and with dogs of a similar size range. Sadly, many obedience trainers know little to nothing about dealing with the terrier personality characteristics.

The OP took the dog to class because of a temperament issue and more than likely many of the dogs there were also there because of some behavioral problem. You are having to deal with two different problems. One, is the fact that the dogs need to learn the words and commands that every dog needs to know to be a good pet. All fine and good. A temperament issue, however, is not going to be solved in a room full of dogs with other temperament issues and owners that have no idea what to do.

Using a spray bottle on a dog that has just been attacked by another dog and parading that dog past it's attacker over and over is not only cruel it is just plain stupid.

Personally, if I were the OP and did not know how to obedience train I would find a good trainer that could come to the house to teach me how to do it or one that works with small groups of stable dogs (in the same size range) and owners. Dealing with your dog's issues at home would hopefully eliminate the chance of his being exposed to more unstable dogs and as you both build up your confidence you can then go out and mix with other dogs more.

Obedience training a dog takes much, much repetition. It should ALWAYS be fun for the dog. Treats and high praise are absolutely necessary continually. The class is as much for training the owner as it is for the dog because the hard work is done at home where you continue to teach your dog what you have learned over and over. You do not have to do long sessions just make sure you go our what you are teaching for a few minutes at least 3 times a day. Praise and reward and you will soon find you have a dog that will do just about anything you ask.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by matese

Excellent training advise, thank you, but this is sorta hard when you have a pup on it's hind legs like a little stallion and pawing at the air. Keep in mind, this is a 3 y/o adopted pup that I have 10 months now, althogh I think I know him pretty good, there are still things I am learning about him. When Cody gets into his Cujo mode he hears nothing, and has nipped at me more then once (which I have pretty much stopped that) while he is in this very embarrassing frenzy if I were to touch him he would snap at me, not to bite me, momma, but to stop who ever / whatever is trying to prevent him from getting at what he is in a frenzy over, which is another dog. I usually pull him away from what is causing this. This extreme action happened only once several weeks ago while I was at the vets office. Lots of dogs coming and going while I waited outside because there were just to many dogs in the waiting area. This was the day I said he needs help, I need to get help for him. This method of yours is excellent for me if, it is a one on one dog situation, and I will try it out if it happens on a leash walk. I have a vet visit coming up soon, many dogs, seems Cody gets all worked up. I hope many ppl visit this thread and saves your training advise. Thank you very much.

I'm so glad you are willing to help him! Thank you for your can-do attitude. Dogs usually only misbehave as you described, act out and bite if they are scared or think they don't have a gentle-but-strong leader. The dog you described, to my mind, needs a couple of weeks or more on the Nothing In Life Is Free program and an obedience training program 2 -3 times a day. You will be surprised how much control you can gain over a little wild nipper when he learns you intend to have him exert self-control and be able to control his impulses or he gets NOTHING he needs or wants from you. And you know what - dogs just LOVE to work for what they want, once they get the message. They are used to working for resources and learn many things from NILIF. It will be hard on you but it's fun for your dog and he'll really get into the program with a wagging tail and eagerness!

Paired with positive-reinforcement bonding upbeat, happy, obedience training with high-motivation treats and real praise, you can reshape that type of behavior IF you are more determined than your dog. If not, he will just get worse without more effort on your part to get him to want to obey you. It takes work and a gentle determination to reshape an out-of-control little sweetie but you can do it! Just never pass up a chance to show him you are in control and keep those obedience lessons coming, no matter how tired or down you are feeling - keep a smile on your face and find ways to engage him in the lessons and make him really want to do what you say. Keep those lessons short(no longer than 3 -5 minutes), frequent, fun and very rewarding for him - he'll come to love doing what you say. You two will develop a true bond and he'll want to obey you. It will make both of you happy.

During the next three months, or until you have control of him and he no longer tries to bite, I'd be careful to keep him away from things that tend to work him into a frenzy while you work with him and teach him about impulse control and to trust and respect you as his leader. The more a dog gets worked into a frenzy, the harder it can be to rehabilitate them from going into that state.

[Graneet]

Not sure who mentioned taking a unruly dog to training. With other unruly dogs and owners who do no know what to do. Seems it would be crazy no that its been mentioned. But it has to help or they wouldnt have them like that???

[matese]

Originally Posted by gracielove

First of all I am against taking a small dog like the OP's into an obedience class full of untrained dogs and owners with larger dogs. Your little dog is at a total disadvantage and has now taken on another bad attitude toward the people and the dogs there. This is no way to deal with a dog that has issues. You are instilling fear, and the dog is not learning any good attitude changes.

I am whole heatedly for obedience class for Yorkies but it should be done by someone with much terrier experience and with dogs of a similar size range. Sadly, many obedience trainers know little to nothing about dealing with the terrier personality characteristics.

The OP took the dog to class because of a temperament issue and more than likely many of the dogs there were also there because of some behavioral problem. You are having to deal with two different problems. One, is the fact that the dogs need to learn the words and commands that every dog needs to know to be a good pet. All fine and good. A temperament issue, however, is not going to be solved in a room full of dogs with other temperament issues and owners that have no idea what to do.

Using a spray bottle on a dog that has just been attacked by another dog and parading that dog past it's attacker over and over is not only cruel it is just plain stupid.

Personally, if I were the OP and did not know how to obedience train I would find a good trainer that could come to the house to teach me how to do it or one that works with small groups of stable dogs (in the same size range) and owners. Dealing with your dog's issues at home would hopefully eliminate the chance of his being exposed to more unstable dogs and as you both build up your confidence you can then go out and mix with other dogs more.

Obedience training a dog takes much, much repetition. It should ALWAYS be fun for the dog. Treats and high praise are absolutely necessary continually. The class is as much for training the owner as it is for the dog because the hard work is done at home where you continue to teach your dog what you have learned over and over. You do not have to do long sessions just make sure you go our what you are teaching for a few minutes at least 3 times a day. Praise and reward and you will soon find you have a dog that will do just about anything you ask.

Cody is / was training with ONE dog, a minipin which yes, is bigger then him. The minipin is not being trained for aggression, he is shy, timid, scared. The owner is being trained, to train her minipin the basic commands, sit, stay etc. The minipin has no interest in my Cody. The minipin focus on his owner. Cody or myself rather is being trained to stop aggressive behavior. I don't know if he is really aggressive, all I see is his butt, wagging tail and body language which is not tense. I don't see his face. It appears he wants to be friendly, but has the wrong approach, which seems aggressive. His prev. owner did not socialize him as a puppy. Cody had 2 sessions with the minipin, minipin was to walk in front, we were to walk behind, appox. 20 + feet between us, the minipin was to pass us, that's when Cody would lunge, the minipin always ignored Cody's bad behavior. Minipin was always focused on the owner. Session 3, when I enter the training room with Cody that day both dogs looked like they wanted to say hello to each other, so trainer said to bring Cody closer,they were just about nose to nose, Cody wagging his tail, no pulling or lunging, the minipin explodes into vicious barking, teeth showing and pulling at his leash, so much for the meet and greet. I can't blame the minipin, for 2 sessions Cody showed bad behavior towards the minipin. That 3rd session, the trainer had the minipin and Cody pass each other, starting at appox 20 feet apart, closing the gap with each pass, Cody pulled and lunged, paying no attention to my command word, and me turning and walking in opposite direction, that’s when the trainer took the leash away from me and had the spray bottle, the trainer started making the passes, 2 passes Cody lunged 2 times and got sprayed 2 times. At time he got sprayed trainer used command word instantly, 3rd pass Cody didn’t even look at the minipin, he looked at the trainer holding the bottle. So what I am trying to say here is Cody did not get sprayed because the other dog attack him, then the attacker was paraded in front of him, Cody got sprayed because he was in a frenzy, heard nothing,got sprayed, that caught his attention. Session # 4, the minipin is on vacation and will be on the next session (#5) The trainer used her border coller that is 100% trained. Maybe because Cody was use to the minipin now there was a new dog his behavior was worse, after 20 min. they bought out the trainer’s 2nd border collie, 2 dogs now. So Cody’s behavior was twice as bad. This next session coming up the border collies will be used again. I don’t see how pvt. In home trainer is use full, I need another dog around to correct Cody’s behavior. It is hard for me to practice what I have been taught because I have to find a place where there are dogs. The week that I signed Cody for classes I was hit by a busy business issue which leaves me little time to practice with Cody. I was thinking of standing outside of Pet Supplies where dogs come and go to practice, there are no dogs walked where I live, which is the woods. I believe I have written all of this in my posts, I hope this has cleared up, 1-Cody is NOT in a room full of aggressive huge dogs with untrained owners, it's usually oly one dog 2- He was NOT sprayed because another dog attacked him then the attacker was paraded in front of him.

[matese]

Originally Posted by Graneet

Not sure who mentioned taking a unruly dog to training. With other unruly dogs and owners who do no know what to do. Seems it would be crazy no that its been mentioned. But it has to help or they wouldnt have them like that???

You're right, I never wrote Cody was in a room full of LARGE aggressive dogs with untrained owners. I hope I have cleared that persons misunderstanding up.

[matese]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

I'm so glad you are willing to help him! Thank you for your can-do attitude. Dogs usually only misbehave as you described, act out and bite if they are scared or think they don't have a gentle-but-strong leader. The dog you described, to my mind, needs a couple of weeks or more on the Nothing In Life Is Free program and an obedience training program 2 -3 times a day. You will be surprised how much control you can gain over a little wild nipper when he learns you intend to have him exert self-control and be able to control his impulses or he gets NOTHING he needs or wants from you. And you know what - dogs just LOVE to work for what they want, once they get the message. They are used to working for resources and learn many things from NILIF. It will be hard on you but it's fun for your dog and he'll really get into the program with a wagging tail and eagerness!

Paired with positive-reinforcement bonding upbeat, happy, obedience training with high-motivation treats and real praise, you can reshape that type of behavior IF you are more determined than your dog. If not, he will just get worse without more effort on your part to get him to want to obey you. It takes work and a gentle determination to reshape an out-of-control little sweetie but you can do it! Just never pass up a chance to show him you are in control and keep those obedience lessons coming, no matter how tired or down you are feeling - keep a smile on your face and find ways to engage him in the lessons and make him really want to do what you say. Keep those lessons short(no longer than 3 -5 minutes), frequent, fun and very rewarding for him - he'll come to love doing what you say. You two will develop a true bond and he'll want to obey you. It will make both of you happy.

During the next three months, or until you have control of him and he no longer tries to bite, I'd be careful to keep him away from things that tend to work him into a frenzy while you work with him and teach him about impulse control and to trust and respect you as his leader. The more a dog gets worked into a frenzy, the harder it can be to rehabilitate them from going into that state.

I love Cody more than words can say, I cater to him and jump when he wants anything, why? Because this little boy was ripped away from an 11 y/o child that loved him to death, the little girl trained him all the basic commands, Cody loved this child and was taken away from her, how can anyone replace the love this child gave this dog? Now he is with me, an older person, no little girl to play with, to be carted around and held like he was a new born baby, that’s how this dog was treated. He came to me spoiled rotten which I love. He attached himself to me from day one, I think it was out of fear that he would be taken away again. I feel very sorry for him that he was ripped away, yes ripped away, just removed from his home and never saw the little girl again . That is why I jump for him and try to take him with me when ever I can. About a week having him he started acting like a 4 y/o with the “new baby sitter or new nanny” seeing how much can he get away with, how far can he go, How many buttons can he push, this is a very smart boy may I add, he learns really fast. So the nipping, hard playing began something I don’t think was allowed this with the little girl. So I showed him the other side of his new mamma. The nipping has stopped, when he wants to nip and hard play he’ll get one of his toys and kills it. At the training session last week with the border collies he got totally out of control when I reached down to touch him he tried to nip at me, but not like to bite his mamma he was out of control. I am not spending the time I should be in practicing what I have been taught with him, business issues popped up and that has taken my time up, I know what to do, just need the time to do it. It is MY FAULT he has not improved. I need to get around dogs to enforce the training. He may never be able to play in dog parks which would be sad, at 3 y/o he has never been close to another dog, he wouldn’t know how to play, again sad. But I will get that lunging under control, this is a safety issue. As I wrote in a answer to a post. I think the best place to practice this is in front of a Pet Supply shop where dogs come and go, not all at the same time. And I can do a 5 minute training. Can walk around the parking lot, see ppl, and go back again for another training session. It is hard to find places where dogs are sure to be, so a pet supply store is the only thing that I can think of where I am sure dogs will be and space to enforce commands with little distraction. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience, your time in this post has not been wasted, and will be put to use. It also helps other ppl that have the same issues I have.