TyAva Yorkies

[thelittleyorkie]

I'm interested to see what the breeder says about this issue.

[gemy]

http://www.theyorkshireterrierclubof...cs/COE_COC.pdf


10) Stud service will be offered only by and to AKC Full Registered, or registered with an AKC approved foreign registry, healthy, mature dogs and bitches, respectively, and only of sound temperament. The dogs and bitches should be free of serious congenital and hereditary defects. Stud service will be refused for any mating which is considered to not be in the best interest of the breed which includes dogs and bitches with Q Registration in their pedigrees, and dogs and bitches of any color, or combination of colors not specified in the standard. Members will not sell dogs of such colors as exotic or rare.


The above is a partial yet seems to be relevant aspect of the question posed about LP etc and whaat is required by Breeder Members of the YTCA.


You will note that not one condition is singled out, not LP nor LS nor PDA nor PRA etc. Merely a statement using an adjective of *serious* congenital and hereditary defects.


Given this; a case can be very logically made that a Grade1/2 LP does not fall in the category of serious as it is commonly referred to as Mild.


I don't like too much *all* or *none* statements. There are many many attributes and considerations a breeder does use when making the decision to breed this dog to that dog. LP is a polygenetic recessive condition, and if indeed we were to breed only LP clear to LP clear, there would be no guarantees we would eradicate LP in the breed. What we need are genetic tests of which none appear to be on the horizon.


In the interim, breeders will need to make the best educated decisions considering many factors and not just *one factor*. There is a saying don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

[CozyPeanut]

I'm sad to hear that little guy has a problem, we saw him when we picked up Winston on Sunday and he is adorable.
My view is that them informing you of this problem prior to you buying and falling in love with him indicates that they are reputable breeders. She may have been wrong on the amount of money it would cost, but she did let you know there was an LP issue so you could make an informed decision.
I'm sorry to say I'd pass on the little guy. Good luck.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by AtlantaMom2

Help! I am so disappointed. Missy called me tonight from TyAva Kennel to tell me that the 12 week old baby boy I was planning to buy has a Grade 2 Luxating Patella. She also told me that one of her adult boys that Ava breeds has had to have the surgery.

Is it ethical to breed dogs with a known luxating patella since it is genetic?

The puppy is $2000 but Ava will only discount the dog by $200. The vet they recommend for the surgery charges $350.

Would you buy a Yorkie pup with a diagnosed Luxating Patella?

Advice is appreciated!

Thanks in advance to all who respond.

Some of this doesn't make sense to me. First of all who diagnosed the dog with grade 2 LP, and who recommended surgery? Dogs with grade 2 don't usually need surgery, and if they need surgery it's well over $350, closer to $1600. I'm not sure that I would say it's unethical to breed a dog with LP, it depends on the grade and other things, but a good breeder probably could answer this better.

[megansmomma]

Originally Posted by Rachael1983

I dont' think she falls into the category of an unreputable breeder. She is very much so on top of her game. My breeder actually recommends her and I think Tina is one of the best out here.

When it comes to LPs, it's an inherited disease and very common in our breed. For a grade 2 and being able to find it this early is a good thing because sometimes LPs don't present until much later in life. And because of this, the parent of the dog may not have presented with LPs until recently. You can test for knees and hips through OFA all day long but that won't guarantee that your puppy won't get it and from my understanding there is no genetic testing you could do.

So with that, for AtlantaMom, I'm sorry your'e in this debacle. I agree that its possible that you could do some negotiating or even look at another puppy they may have available. I do know they sometimes have older puppies around 6-8 months at a lower price point but with the same quality.

Of course this is your money you're spending and your responsibility but I've learned that you can't always guarantee everything and they are being completely and totally up front with you so you can make the best decision for you and your family. I would talk with them further to see if there's another option but don't just close the door thinking that you ran into a bad apple of a breeder. That certainly isn't the case here. Hang in there. And I do hope that helps just a tad.

Having a puppy with a Grade 2 LP is much different than having an adult dog with a grade 2 LP. Additionally, dogs with known LP should not be breed. http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/projects/sa..._81/81mast.htm

ETIOLOGY, CLASSIFICATION, AND PRESENTING SIGNS

Medial patellar luxation is seen most commonly in small breed dogs as a congenital or developmental problem.(24) Most animals that experience this condition can be diagnosed within the first 6 months of life. The severity of the condition seems to be related to the age of onset: the early cases result in the more severe disability and deformity. Although the cause of the condition has not

been determined, most reports do not recommend the breeding of animals with patellar luxation

LP that presents later is life is much different than a puppy with LP.

[megansmomma]

Originally Posted by gemy

http://www.theyorkshireterrierclubof...cs/COE_COC.pdf


10) Stud service will be offered only by and to AKC Full Registered, or registered with an AKC approved foreign registry, healthy, mature dogs and bitches, respectively, and only of sound temperament. The dogs and bitches should be free of serious congenital and hereditary defects. Stud service will be refused for any mating which is considered to not be in the best interest of the breed which includes dogs and bitches with Q Registration in their pedigrees, and dogs and bitches of any color, or combination of colors not specified in the standard. Members will not sell dogs of such colors as exotic or rare.


The above is a partial yet seems to be relevant aspect of the question posed about LP etc and whaat is required by Breeder Members of the YTCA.


You will note that not one condition is singled out, not LP nor LS nor PDA nor PRA etc. Merely a statement using an adjective of *serious* congenital and hereditary defects.


Given this; a case can be very logically made that a Grade1/2 LP does not fall in the category of serious as it is commonly referred to as Mild.


I don't like too much *all* or *none* statements. There are many many attributes and considerations a breeder does use when making the decision to breed this dog to that dog. LP is a polygenetic recessive condition, and if indeed we were to breed only LP clear to LP clear, there would be no guarantees we would eradicate LP in the breed. What we need are genetic tests of which none appear to be on the horizon.


In the interim, breeders will need to make the best educated decisions considering many factors and not just *one factor*. There is a saying don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

But I think the issue here is more that this is a puppy with a Grade 2 LP and a vet that will do surgery on a 16 week old puppy for $350. I've never ever heard of such a young puppy with a Grade 2 LP needing surgery let alone that surgery costing $350. This is not adding up to me and I am now questioning why the puppy would have been DXed at such a young age is LP requiring surgical repair. Additionally, the grading of LP is subjective to the vet upon examiniation is it not

[GracieJane]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

LP can show up when they are puppies. Having LP means the dog is a lot more likely to tear there ACL and getting that and the LP fixed at the same time is $3,500 and a minimum of 8 weeks crate rest. It has to be done by an orthopedic surgeon not a regular vet. I'm sure they did know the dog that had LP and still will be breeding him that's just what bad breeders do.

Wow! I should proofread better! I meant to say that it doesn't always show up when they are puppies!

[gemy]

[QUOTE=megansmomma;4492784]But I think the issue here is more that this is a puppy with a Grade 2 LP and a vet that will do surgery on a 16 week old puppy for $350. I've never ever heard of such a young puppy with a Grade 2 LP needing surgery let alone that surgery costing $350. This is not adding up to me and I am now questioning why the puppy would have been DXed at such a young age is LP requiring surgical repair. Additionally, the grading of LP is subjective to the vet upon examiniation is it not [/QUOTE]



Not only subjective but based upon the skill and expertise of the general vet.


I think that we don't know if he was recommending surgery on a 16wk old pup, but that he could do surgery for an LP repair (presumably if necessary) and the cost was $350. At least that is what I remember from the OP post she said the "vet she recommends for the surgery charges $350" This statement appears to be tied into that the breeder would only discount the dog for an amount less than $350 maybe it was $200.


I take from the OP's post that the breeder would advise the buyer if symptoms warrant down the road, using her general vet for LP repair and that is what he charges.

[thelittleyorkie]

Originally Posted by AtlantaMom2

Help! I am so disappointed. Missy called me tonight from TyAva Kennel to tell me that the 12 week old baby boy I was planning to buy has a Grade 2 Luxating Patella. She also told me that one of her adult boys that Ava breeds has had to have the surgery.

Is it ethical to breed dogs with a known luxating patella since it is genetic?

The puppy is $2000 but Ava will only discount the dog by $200. The vet they recommend for the surgery charges $350.

Would you buy a Yorkie pup with a diagnosed Luxating Patella?

Advice is appreciated!

Thanks in advance to all who respond.

I'm not really sure that it's a good idea to pay $1800 for a pup that has a luxating patella.

Taken from this website:

Knee Problems In Your Dog - Patellar Luxation - Luxating Patella

Grade 2

Grade II pets have less stable knees. The kneecap can be massaged back into its groove - but it pops back out again once the knee is manually flexed or after the pet has taken a few steps. With time, many of these pets will develop knee pain and arthritis associated with their problem.

If your pet only suffers from a grade 1 condition, it should do fine without surgery. However, the higher the grade, the more likely your pet is to eventually develop arthritis in the knee leading to pain. We cannot predict which pets will develop painful knees in grade 2. The problem with delaying surgery in these pets is that arthritis, once it occurs, is irreversible. I am inclined to suggest lateral collateral ligament reinforcement to my clients with young-to-middle age pets in this situation to avoid this. This is because collateral ligament surgery in your pet is a relatively non-intrusive, safe surgery. It is often successful and does not preclude more extensive surgery later if it does not solve the problem.

No.

I do not believe that pets that limp only occasionally (grade 1) need surgery. Grade 2 pets are a harder decision. They probably do not need surgery either. Just feed them a balanced diet, keep them lean, keep their toenails trimmed short. Give them a chondrotin/glucosamine supplements if you wish. If you do elect surgery for these pets, there are minimally invasive arthroscopic techniques that you might consider.



Has she given you the name of the vet that she is recommending for the surgery? Perhaps you could look him/her up or call the office to see how experienced they are with luxating patella surgery. $350 is super cheap.

[megansmomma]

Originally Posted by thelittleyorkie

I'm not really sure that it's a good idea to pay $1800 for a pup that has a luxating patella.

Taken from this website:

Knee Problems In Your Dog - Patellar Luxation - Luxating Patella

Grade 2

Grade II pets have less stable knees. The kneecap can be massaged back into its groove - but it pops back out again once the knee is manually flexed or after the pet has taken a few steps. With time, many of these pets will develop knee pain and arthritis associated with their problem.

If your pet only suffers from a grade 1 condition, it should do fine without surgery. However, the higher the grade, the more likely your pet is to eventually develop arthritis in the knee leading to pain. We cannot predict which pets will develop painful knees in grade 2. The problem with delaying surgery in these pets is that arthritis, once it occurs, is irreversible. I am inclined to suggest lateral collateral ligament reinforcement to my clients with young-to-middle age pets in this situation to avoid this. This is because collateral ligament surgery in your pet is a relatively non-intrusive, safe surgery. It is often successful and does not preclude more extensive surgery later if it does not solve the problem.

No.

I do not believe that pets that limp only occasionally (grade 1) need surgery. Grade 2 pets are a harder decision. They probably do not need surgery either. Just feed them a balanced diet, keep them lean, keep their toenails trimmed short. Give them a chondrotin/glucosamine supplements if you wish. If you do elect surgery for these pets, there are minimally invasive arthroscopic techniques that you might consider.



Has she given you the name of the vet that she is recommending for the surgery? Perhaps you could look him/her up or call the office to see how experienced they are with luxating patella surgery. $350 is super cheap.

They will develop arthritis with our without the surgery.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by AtlantaMom2

Help! I am so disappointed. Missy called me tonight from TyAva Kennel to tell me that the 12 week old baby boy I was planning to buy has a Grade 2 Luxating Patella. She also told me that one of her adult boys that Ava breeds has had to have the surgery.

Is it ethical to breed dogs with a known luxating patella since it is genetic?

The puppy is $2000 but Ava will only discount the dog by $200. The vet they recommend for the surgery charges $350.

Would you buy a Yorkie pup with a diagnosed Luxating Patella?

Advice is appreciated!

Thanks in advance to all who respond.

I am not even going to chime in about the breeder except to say that a discount of $200 is ludicrous and her quoted price of $300 for LP repair is scary...who is she recommending for the surgery, a butcher? Seriously, that is just unbelievable.

Tell her that you want the opinion of a board certified orthopedic specialist and don't give her a nickel until she gets that. I can promise you it is more than $2,000 to repair LP.

Someone said that LP grade 2 is not a surgical issue; but I disagree. In adult dogs they often don't recommend surgery because the CCL is already worn so the new recommendation by most boarded surgeons is not to repair unless it is a severe issue because often the ligament will tear anyway and that means the pup needs another operation. Stress for the pup and more money for the owner. Puppies with LP should be repaired from what I understand.....they are young and have not had the wear and tear on their ligaments.

Personally I would walk away. But, if you really want this pup, my advice is to do what I suggested and NOT pay $2,000 to that breeder!

[ladyjane]

You can find a board certified surgeon on this website:

www.acvs.org

[maggiesmom_2007]

Taylor I have had a dog not a yorkie but a Pomeranian with patellas above a grade 4 that my vet said would be a waste of money doing the surgery. that was back when she was a year old she passed at 10 years from kidney failure. But for you to say someone is a bad breeder based on your experience is just wrong. I know Ava personally and she would not breed a dog with bad patellas knowingly. I would bet when she found out the issue she stopped using the male. Also how would you know if she has or has not contacted other owners of puppies from this sire. Also as far as the cost of LP surgery. Like a previous poster said you live in Maryland and Ava lives in Georgia. She could have a good relationship with her vet and seeing as she is a breeder she probably gets a discount. So before you start a witch hunt get the facts first.

[lynzy420]

[QUOTE=maggiesmom_2007;4492954]Taylor I have had a dog not a yorkie but a Pomeranian with patellas above a grade 4 that my vet said would be a waste of money doing the surgery. that was back when she was a year old she passed at 10 years from kidney failure. But for you to say someone is a bad breeder based on your experience is just wrong. I know Ava personally and she would not breed a dog with bad patellas knowingly. I would bet when she found out the issue she stopped using the male. Also how would you know if she has or has not contacted other owners of puppies from this sire. Also as far as the cost of LP surgery. Like a previous poster said you live in Maryland and Ava lives in Georgia. She could have a good relationship with her vet and seeing as she is a breeder she probably gets a discount. So before you start a witch hunt get the facts first.[/QUOTE


Oh Please....your friendship does not make her a good breeder, that's just nonsensical.

[xFoxyx]

I got my Ripley from TyAva and don't regret it one ounce. She was so knowledgeable and they care about their pups. They have many Champions and breed for the better of Yorkies. She is very protective of her line and has been breeding Yorkies for 30 years. Do we even know if this is her first issue with this defect? It could be. Maybe she will not breed the parents any longer now that this has shown up, do we even know that?

Personally I think that if she didn't tell the OP about the LP it WOULD make her a bad breeder. But, she did tell her giving her options.

I will state that I would not choose this puppy - as you can never know if it will be ok. Especially not for the price she is quoting. She should come down considerably more if you are thinking of taking this pup.

Talk to them...ask questions. If you are uncomfortable, the don't purchase one. Good luck.