TyAva Yorkies

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by maggiesmom_2007

I have to pipe in here. I don't have a Yorkie directly from Ava but I do have Yorkies from her lines. My girls are all sired by one of Ava's boys and I couldn't have asked for better lines. She is an amazing lady and has put alot of hard work into bettering the breed.

A reputable breeder does not breed a dog with LP.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by Rachael1983

I dont' think she falls into the category of an unreputable breeder. She is very much so on top of her game. My breeder actually recommends her and I think Tina is one of the best out here.

When it comes to LPs, it's an inherited disease and very common in our breed. For a grade 2 and being able to find it this early is a good thing because sometimes LPs don't present until much later in life. And because of this, the parent of the dog may not have presented with LPs until recently. You can test for knees and hips through OFA all day long but that won't guarantee that your puppy won't get it and from my understanding there is no genetic testing you could do.

So with that, for AtlantaMom, I'm sorry your'e in this debacle. I agree that its possible that you could do some negotiating or even look at another puppy they may have available. I do know they sometimes have older puppies around 6-8 months at a lower price point but with the same quality.

Of course this is your money you're spending and your responsibility but I've learned that you can't always guarantee everything and they are being completely and totally up front with you so you can make the best decision for you and your family. I would talk with them further to see if there's another option but don't just close the door thinking that you ran into a bad apple of a breeder. That certainly isn't the case here. Hang in there. And I do hope that helps just a tad.

I doubt it just popped up and the price she quoted for the surgery is completely wrong. So she is giving buys false info and not letting them know how serious the surgery is, it's 8 weeks minimum crate rest. The surgery has to be done by an orthopedic surgeon not a regular vet. It will cost over $1000. If she was concerned why would she not get the pup his surgery and then sell him after he is healed or how can she know he will get the care he needs? A reputable breeder does not breed dogs with LP period and it would seem weird to me that a pup was diagnosed with it and then she suddenly found out her breeding dog had it. Is she retiring this dog? Has she contacted every owner of a pup who was sired by him? That is what would speak volumes of the type of breeder. It also seems odd she would not I inform the potential buyer of all the issues LP can cause like ACL tears.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by AtlantaMom2

Thank you, Rachael and Maggie'sMom, for your reassuring words. Your remarks are very helpful.

I will return on Saturday and look at another puppy.

Will keep you posted.

I think you really need to look at what I have posted......

[Rachael1983]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

I doubt it just popped up and the price she quoted for the surgery is completely wrong. So she is giving buys false info and not letting them know how serious the surgery is, it's 8 weeks minimum crate rest. The surgery has to be done by an orthopedic surgeon not a regular vet. It will cost over $1000. If she was concerned why would she not get the pup his surgery and then sell him after he is healed or how can she know he will get the care he needs? A reputable breeder does not breed dogs with LP period and it would seem weird to me that a pup was diagnosed with it and then she suddenly found out her breeding dog had it. Is she retiring this dog? Has she contacted every owner of a pup who was sired by him? That is what would speak volumes of the type of breeder. It also seems odd she would not I inform the potential buyer of all the issues LP can cause like ACL tears.

Taylor, I don't think its any potential buyers business what her future plans are with the dog in question and if she called every sired puppy. What speaks volumes is this breeder has been breeding for 30+ years, sits on the YTCA, is actively showing to improve the breed, and pretty much is recognized among several other reputable breeders as someone to aspire to. I think we just can't say to someone don't buy from this person because of this. It's not a big red flag in my opinion. I do wish that you would be a little bit more open minded. The price quoted for the surgery could be the cost of the surgery, just not including anesthesia, blood work, etc. I get that you have experienced having a dog with LPs and having to do surgery etc. But you live in Maryland. This is GA, that's a major difference in some prices for vet services. Some vets may even do LP surgeries and not go the specialist route. I don't think its false info or she's trying to blindside or run a scam on any potential buyer. She was upfront and gave information.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by Rachael1983

Taylor, I don't think its any potential buyers business what her future plans are with the dog in question and if she called every sired puppy. What speaks volumes is this breeder has been breeding for 30+ years, sits on the YTCA, is actively showing to improve the breed, and pretty much is recognized among several other reputable breeders as someone to aspire to. I think we just can't say to someone don't buy from this person because of this. It's not a big red flag in my opinion. I do wish that you would be a little bit more open minded. The price quoted for the surgery could be the cost of the surgery, just not including anesthesia, blood work, etc. I get that you have experienced having a dog with LPs and having to do surgery etc. But you live in Maryland. This is GA, that's a major difference in some prices for vet services. Some vets may even do LP surgeries and not go the specialist route. I don't think its false info or she's trying to blindside or run a scam on any potential buyer. She was upfront and gave information.

If she continues to breed a dog with LP that makes her a bad breeder period. I have been through LP surgery on both legs with my girl. There have also been threads asking how much it costs and everyone who replayed from all over the US all said over $1000. A regular vet can not do this surgery and many people have come to this board who a regular vet did do the surgery and they ended up having to go to to an orthopedic surgeon and having the surgery redone. A regular vet should never do LP surgery. The owners to the other dogs sired by this male should be warned to keep and check on and watch there dog knees carefully because it's the right thing to do. People tend to think just because your a breeder who shows or is part of the ytca that you are a god or something but those type or people mess up to and will do things not right. It is my opinion a reputable breeder does not breed a dog with LP because that is absolutely not bettering the breed!

[Rachael1983]

Your'e entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. I fully recommend the breeder and although the situation is not ideal, discussion with the breeder, view of another puppy and meet towards a solution would be a good thing.

I think it's time to close the thread.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by Rachael1983

Your'e entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. I fully recommend the breeder and although the situation is not ideal, discussion with the breeder, view of another puppy and meet towards a solution would be a good thing.

I think it's time to close the thread.

Just because someone has an opinion other then yours? I'm sorry you have not had to watch a dog suffer from LP and the suffer from getting the surgery but it really sucks. They have to cut away pieces of the bone and put pins in. Do you know how bad it hurts for your bone cut on? Do you know how depressed a dog can get from having to be crated for 8 weeks or more no matter what you do to try and make them happy and get them out of the crate? Have you had to doubt yourself because they were in pain so you got the surgery then they got an infection, then the incision split open and then the pins cause pain but they could not remove them for months even though they were hurting? If you haven't had to go through that then you have no idea how serious and how painful LP and the surgery can be. It should not be sugar coated and it should not be ok to set dogs up to have to go through that! LP surgery is rough and it's painful!

[AtlantaMom2]

My gut tells me that Lovetodream88 is correct. I spoke with a Yorkie expert on the board of the club. I also spoke with my vet this afternoon. Both said that the $350 surgery is not done by an orthopedic surgeon, but a regular vet that only does a "tacking of the ligament" and not a real repair. I was told that often, after this "tacking" the pup will need the expensive surgery.

Please do not close this thread. I need all of your suggestions. You all have been quite helpful.

Thank you.

[lynzy420]

Originally Posted by AtlantaMom2

My gut tells me that Lovetodream88 is correct. I spoke with a Yorkie expert on the board of the club. I also spoke with my vet this afternoon. Both said that the $350 surgery is not done by an orthopedic surgeon, but a regular vet that only does a "tacking of the ligament" and not a real repair. I was told that often, after this "tacking" the pup will need the expensive surgery.

Please do not close this thread. I need all of your suggestions. You all have been quite helpful.

Thank you.

I agree with you and Taylor, why take a chance? I would lovvvveeeeee a vet that charged me that price....I paid soooooo much more. I also have received pm's from other breeders who don't want to cause trouble....all I can say is LP can show up early or late but if I hadn't paid as much as I have for mine....and if I had a smidgen of a chance NOT to get a pup without LP or from a breeder who doesn't breed their LP dogs....I just wouldn't go with this breeder, sorry.


Great to see so many opinions!!

[gemy]

Originally Posted by AtlantaMom2

Help! I am so disappointed. Missy called me tonight from TyAva Kennel to tell me that the 12 week old baby boy I was planning to buy has a Grade 2 Luxating Patella. She also told me that one of her adult boys that Ava breeds has had to have the surgery.

Is it ethical to breed dogs with a known luxating patella since it is genetic?

The puppy is $2000 but Ava will only discount the dog by $200. The vet they recommend for the surgery charges $350.

Would you buy a Yorkie pup with a diagnosed Luxating Patella?

Advice is appreciated!

Thanks in advance to all who respond.

First the breeder did the ethical thing and reported a problem with this puppy to you before you bought him and totally fell in love with your puppy.


An LP surgery at $350 is very low cost indeed, even if a general vet does the surgery. I think that if you call orthopaedic surgeons in your area and ask for a price range for the surgery you will probably come up with $1000+ or more. I also highly recommend LP surgery be done by a specialist and not a general vet, unless this general vet has 1000's of successful LP surgeries under their belt.


It is not un-common to have future problems like ACL tears that again will require surgery down the road. In terms of pet insurance as LP is a pre-existing condition you could not get insurance coverage for LP surgery.


Grades 1 and 2 LP are considered mild with grade 1 rarely requiring surgery, and Grade 2s more likely to down the road some years.


Whilst most breeders would agree that LP in both knees especially Grades 3 and 4 ddx'd young - prior to 4 -5 months old, is likely inherited, milder Grades and especially only in one knee are more dubious. It is fairly well-known that environmental factors can worsen an existing LP, and or create a Grade 1 LP in a pup that merely started out with *loose* knee/s. Such as, too much jumping especially onto slippery surfaces, the jumping up and down in one spot again on slippery surfaces (such as hardwood floor, ceramic tile, etc). Too much weight gain too fast, and just overall being obese,coupled with lack of adequate and age appropriate exercise. And as such the owner may create or worsen the condition.


It is quite possible that the sire which ended up with LP started out just fine and even 3 0r 4 years down the road this LP was ddx'd. Whether she would breed this dog again, will depend on a whole lot of factors, likely causative nature of his LP, health of the previous litters he has sired and the incidence rate of LP in his off-spring, his overall general health, and the other very important qualities he brings to the breeding pool.




I would thank the breeder for her frankness, and quite simply *pass* on this puppy. I really don't want to buy a likely future and expensive and painfull problem down the road.

[Rachael1983]

Taylor Honey, I wasn't suggesting closing the thread because of difference of opinion. It was because of tone and heat in the messages. But that's neither here nor there at this point because AtlantaMom is learning something and would like to get further opinions. If not closed then maybe moved to breeder referral section.

I have been fortunate not to experience any orthopedic issues in any of the animals I've owned however I don't think that diminishes anything I have to say or information I'm interpreting. I hate to see any animal suffer. No one wants that.

But to say this isn't a reputable breeder goes against what I believe to be in fact true. If I had not purchased from Tina, I would have purchased with TyAVA. If I have been presented with the same scenario, I would proceed with the same information Ive suggested to the OP.

If vet prices, surgeries differ thats fine too. I'm happy the OP talked with their vet to get further information yet that's why she may be inclined to look at another puppy, different set of parents, etc. May even prompt further questions about OFA testing or what have you.

All I would like to proceed with is let's not bash the breeder or say they aren't reputable because of this issue. Maybe I feel this way because I know people who have a Tyava dog, and they are living healthy lives and the experience has been well worth it. Its good to have the bad with the good so one gets a full picture but to just hammer it down "This is not a reputable breeder" seems wrong to me.

[Rachael1983]

Originally Posted by gemy

First the breeder did the ethical thing and reported a problem with this puppy to you before you bought him and totally fell in love with your puppy.


An LP surgery at $350 is very low cost indeed, even if a general vet does the surgery. I think that if you call orthopaedic surgeons in your area and ask for a price range for the surgery you will probably come up with $1000+ or more. I also highly recommend LP surgery be done by a specialist and not a general vet, unless this general vet has 1000's of successful LP surgeries under their belt.


It is not un-common to have future problems like ACL tears that again will require surgery down the road. In terms of pet insurance as LP is a pre-existing condition you could not get insurance coverage for LP surgery.


Grades 1 and 2 LP are considered mild with grade 1 rarely requiring surgery, and Grade 2s more likely to down the road some years.


Whilst most breeders would agree that LP in both knees especially Grades 3 and 4 ddx'd young - prior to 4 -5 months old, is likely inherited, milder Grades and especially only in one knee are more dubious. It is fairly well-known that environmental factors can worsen an existing LP, and or create a Grade 1 LP in a pup that merely started out with *loose* knee/s. Such as, too much jumping especially onto slippery surfaces, the jumping up and down in one spot again on slippery surfaces (such as hardwood floor, ceramic tile, etc). Too much weight gain too fast, and just overall being obese,coupled with lack of adequate and age appropriate exercise. And as such the owner may create or worsen the condition.


It is quite possible that the sire which ended up with LP started out just fine and even 3 0r 4 years down the road this LP was ddx'd. Whether she would breed this dog again, will depend on a whole lot of factors, likely causative nature of his LP, health of the previous litters he has sired and the incidence rate of LP in his off-spring, his overall general health, and the other very important qualities he brings to the breeding pool.




I would thank the breeder for her frankness, and quite simply *pass* on this puppy. I really don't want to buy a likely future and expensive and painfull problem down the road.

Good Perspective

[lynzy420]

Originally Posted by Rachael1983

Taylor Honey, I wasn't suggesting closing the thread because of difference of opinion. It was because of tone and heat in the messages. But that's neither here nor there at this point because AtlantaMom is learning something and would like to get further opinions. If not closed then maybe moved to breeder referral section.

I have been fortunate not to experience any orthopedic issues in any of the animals I've owned however I don't think that diminishes anything I have to say or information I'm interpreting. I hate to see any animal suffer. No one wants that.

But to say this isn't a reputable breeder goes against what I believe to be in fact true. If I had not purchased from Tina, I would have purchased with TyAVA. If I have been presented with the same scenario, I would proceed with the same information Ive suggested to the OP.

If vet prices, surgeries differ thats fine too. I'm happy the OP talked with their vet to get further information yet that's why she may be inclined to look at another puppy, different set of parents, etc. May even prompt further questions about OFA testing or what have you.

All I would like to proceed with is let's not bash the breeder or say they aren't reputable because of this issue. Maybe I feel this way because I know people who have a Tyava dog, and they are living healthy lives and the experience has been well worth it. Its good to have the bad with the good so one gets a full picture but to just hammer it down "This is not a reputable breeder" seems wrong to me.

An ethical/reputable breeder does not breed dogs known to throw LP issues quite frankly.

[kreuer]

I am no expert by any means and have no personal experience with LP, but I would think most "bad breeders" would not have told her about the LP, sell her the dog anyway, and when she found out from her vet the pup had LP do nothing about it. But that's just my opinion. Most people on here that bought from bad breeders found out after the fact of buying the pup and the breeder could have cared less because they already have the money. Either way, I would not buy the puppy knowing I might have to see the poor thing have to go through such a paining surgery.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by Rachael1983

Taylor Honey, I wasn't suggesting closing the thread because of difference of opinion. It was because of tone and heat in the messages. But that's neither here nor there at this point because AtlantaMom is learning something and would like to get further opinions. If not closed then maybe moved to breeder referral section.

I have been fortunate not to experience any orthopedic issues in any of the animals I've owned however I don't think that diminishes anything I have to say or information I'm interpreting. I hate to see any animal suffer. No one wants that.

But to say this isn't a reputable breeder goes against what I believe to be in fact true. If I had not purchased from Tina, I would have purchased with TyAVA. If I have been presented with the same scenario, I would proceed with the same information Ive suggested to the OP.

If vet prices, surgeries differ thats fine too. I'm happy the OP talked with their vet to get further information yet that's why she may be inclined to look at another puppy, different set of parents, etc. May even prompt further questions about OFA testing or what have you.

All I would like to proceed with is let's not bash the breeder or say they aren't reputable because of this issue. Maybe I feel this way because I know people who have a Tyava dog, and they are living healthy lives and the experience has been well worth it. Its good to have the bad with the good so one gets a full picture but to just hammer it down "This is not a reputable breeder" seems wrong to me.

And it seems wrong to me for you to say my opinion is wrong! I also feel your brushing off the whole LP surgery thing, it is way over the price quoted and that was even confirmed by the potential buyer. It is not ok to breed dogs with LP having a dog effected with this I am very passionate on it. If she continues to breed a dog with LP it is my opinion that is not a reputable breeder. LP is a big problem in yorkies and just brushing it off like that isn't good. Breeding to better the breed would not be breeding a dog with LP. Obviously if she does not breed the dog again then she could be a good breeder but if she keeps breeding a dog with LP then my opinion is that she is not a reputable breeder. I also am a little worried about her lack of knowledge of LP.