Puppy Mill Puppy- Heart Murmur?

[Rescued]

Hi,

I am currently fostering a litter of now 7 week old pups (with mom) that were part of a puppy mill seizure. The pups were born at the mill about a day before they were rescued.

I do have to apologize as they are not yorkie pups- mom is a Pom. This forum has always been one I have looked at when we have gotten yorkies into rescue and the posters seem excellent with advice and experience, so I am hoping I can get some general info.

The pups and mom were at ICU from seizure- 2 weeks old, and have been fostered at my house from their release from the vets office until now. One of the three pups is much smaller than the others, and we suspected she may have had a different dad, mom may have accidentally been bred twice, ect. She does appear less pom-my than her siblings.

Our vet today (with the rescue, these are just my foster pups and not ones I have adopted) diagnosed her (the smallest pup) with a significant grade 5 heart murmur.

Does anyone have experience with severe heart murmurs with small breeds/ puppy mill dogs in general? I am reading a lot about people that have purchased mill dogs and then found out there was a 1-3 grade murmur but not a lot about the grades 5-6 [pup is seven weeks].

Any advice, links, anything would be helpful. Currently pup is not experiencing any symptoms other than failure to gain weight. Vets plan is to recheck murmur in a few weeks.

Anyone have any advice or experiences? Again I apologize that the pup in question is not a Yorkie but this is by far the most sensible small breed forum I have come across

[Wylie's Mom]

Bumping . Bless your heart for helping these wee ones.

[Rescued]

Here is a picture of the little girl

Also, if anyone knows where to get tiny ("teacup", as much as we all hate that word!) clothes, preferably on the cheaper side, please let me know! These were ordered online and are an XXS but are still way too big for her tiny stick legs.

Any advice or good wishes or puppy mill experiences (or really anything!) are appreciated. I myself am a Labrador person and this puppy mill litter is my first real experience with fostering small breeds, as you can imagine we don't get many small breed litters into rescue!

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...pseeb821ef.jpg

[margaritaville]

Disclaimer: My knowledge base is humans not pets. It's possible that since this little one may have been from a second breeding, she may be a little premature. In humans it sometimes happens when they are premature that the valve between the oxygenated and non oxgenated blood in the heart has not yet closed thus hearing the murmur. Your vet is the best answer to the long term answer as to rather or not it can eventually close.

[Rhetts_mama]

Chiming in here, my experience is not with pups but with neonates.

While its possible that you might have a PDA, I've never run across one that was that loud on its own. To become that loud, there is usually another defect present such as an ASD or a VSD or some type of stenosis. The lack of weight gain is a concern because it suggests the defect is severe enough that she can't meet her metabolic needs and have enough energy left over to grow.

Is there any way you can get her in to a specialist? They really need to do an ultrasound and chest xray on her to determine the underlying cause and best course of action.

Here are a few sites I've found to give you some more information.

Signs of Heart Disease in Dogs

Heart Murmurs in Dogs | petMD

Heart Murmurs in Dogs | The Veterinary Expert| Pet Health




Good luck and thank you for helping these puppies.

[Rescued]

Rhetts mama, thank you so much for the links. I am going to talk to our director of offsite referrals today (we are a larger no-kill county organization) and see if we may have a connection with a cardiac specialist. I am assuming that she needs testing that a regular vets office wouldn't have- anyone know if this is correct?

The examination yesterday was done with our vet just with a stethoscope in the "treatment" area of our building- but this is not an area where we perform surgeries or anything (ie no major equipment). We normally refer offsite to a regular 24 hour ICU vet- does anyone know if they would have the equipment to do further diagnostics, or if this really is going to fall under seeing a cardiac specialty hospital?

I appreciate all the responses, thank you so much! I will be at work today and will ask our referral coordinator- I foster for the shelter but also am an employee there. I will keep you all updated!

[Lovely Izzy]

Originally Posted by Rescued

Here is a picture of the little girl

Also, if anyone knows where to get tiny ("teacup", as much as we all hate that word!) clothes, preferably on the cheaper side, please let me know! These were ordered online and are an XXS but are still way too big for her tiny stick legs.

Any advice or good wishes or puppy mill experiences (or really anything!) are appreciated. I myself am a Labrador person and this puppy mill litter is my first real experience with fostering small breeds, as you can imagine we don't get many small breed litters into rescue!

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...pseeb821ef.jpg

Go to the doggies closet on ebay, she has clothes that start at xxxs and goes up. I get my dogs clothes from here and they are pretty nice and not expensive. Or you can also go to PC DOG CLOTHES, its the same person but you can usually get the clothes cheaper on her ebay store.

Thank you for taking in these poor little babies.

[Quadraphinic]

My 1st Yorkie, Megan, had PDA, she lived to be 15, but we had to restrict activities as a puppy. 15 years ago the operation for PDA was over $2,000, and was a 50/50 at best chance, we decided not to have it done, we were also told she wouldn't live past her 1st year, so the extra 14 were a bonus.
Megan used to lay on the couch with her but up, and her head down, she did this on her own, not much of an angle, but enough to make getting the blood to her brain easier. Good luck with the pups, and I hope she lives a long happy life.
Cheers Quad & Gina

[navillusc]

Human experience...not canine , but I had a child born with an ASD (2 holes, actually), and a grandchild born with an ASD. An Echocardiagram should show what the issue is, but will likely be a bit pricey and a specialty. Since this is a puppy mill seizure rescue, you may be able to find a Good Samaritan hopefully that is willing to help. Once the 'cause' is known, the next steps that need to be taken should be easier to formulate I would think. Good luck, and thank you for helping these little sweeties!

[nanahas3]

She is adorable. We used to have poms and our breeder had one exactly those colors.

[Rescued]

Just wanted to update everyone:

Offsite vet appointment is in the works for next week, apparently imaging person is out the rest of this week. I will hope for decent news, or at least a KNOWN prognosis- treatable in some way to any degree would be awesome.

She got a ferret sweatshirt today! Fits the best out of anything we've found thus far.

Talked to our main "dog intake" person today and the plan is for all pups to stay until the new year, so that they can be near 12 weeks when adopted as I know that is really recommended for small breeds. I am getting a bit exhausted but will have to tough it out for the well being of everyone Mom has not been HW tested yet... so prayers that she tests negative and will be able to be spayed along with the other two pups after the new year. Right now the plan is for little bit to just stay put- basically, we are hoping that the offsite appointment will let us know what the course of action should be with her. If she will be a huge anesthesia risk (dependent on the actual defect) then she will not ever be spayed and therefore will not ever be adopted out, and will be in what we call "perma foster" for the remainder of her life. If she can be spayed, we will look into when would be the best time to do it and it will likely be a few months before that happens.

Thank you to everyone for your help- any comments or well wishes are appreciated!

[Rescued]

E-vet last night, she was lethargic and lying on her side.
T
he vet is pretty sure she has PDA- Patent Ductus Arteriosis. She had an xray and heart is obviously enlarged (bad) but she was not in heart failure yet (good). Prognosis is unknown and hopefully vet appt next week will do more diagnostics, but without surgery (5-8k was quoted) to correct the defect her lifespan is going to be under a year.

Quadriphinic, I am hoping for an outcome like yours, somehow. Do you remember the grade of murmur your girl had? The vet made it sound like the PDA + grade 5 = pretty bad, but I guess we wont know until we get an echo.

[navillusc]

I am so sorry...poor little thing. I hope for a quick diagnosis and a full recovery, too. Sending healing energy, thoughts, and prayers. {{{Hugs}}}