over vaccinating is bad for our pets

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by lisaly

I'm in agreement with you, Nancy, about Dr. Dodds. She has spent so much of her medical career studying the affects of vaccination, and so has Dr. Schultz. I don't think anything is foolproof, but the risks of overvaccinating to me are a great concern, and it seems that titering is an excellent alternative. My vet was very happy when I asked about titering. He prefers to test every year rather than every three years, which is fine with me. My Ashley went six years not being vaccinated, and although we didn't go to dog parks or pet stores, she walked a great deal and went many places with me. Most likely dogs are fully immunized after they get their one year boosters, but I know I would worry too much if I didn't titer.

Yeah, I'm the same way, the diseases are horrible and I know I would be worried sick, if my boys didn't have protection, but on the other hand, I hate the thought that the titers aren't giving me reliable information.

[Teresiana]

I have a question for those who choose to limit their dog's vaccinations. How do you have a conversation with your vet about which vaccines you want/don't want administered without offending your vet? It seems like that would be a difficult conversation to have. I looked over Dr. Dodd's Vaccination Protocol & according to it, it seems like the typical pet gets A LOT more than they actually need. My breeder also gave me a book about this. So I'm just wondering how open your vets were to the idea.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Teresiana

I have a question for those who choose to limit their dog's vaccinations. How do you have a conversation with your vet about which vaccines you want/don't want administered without offending your vet? It seems like that would be a difficult conversation to have. I looked over Dr. Dodd's Vaccination Protocol & according to it, it seems like the typical pet gets A LOT more than they actually need. My breeder also gave me a book about this. So I'm just wondering how open your vets were to the idea.

My vet was a little skeptical. He hates online forums! He's seen the results of no vaccines and told me the story of a parvo outbreak where so many dogs died and in his opinion, the results of over vaccinating are not as clear as the results of under vaccinating. The only thing he mentioned was autoimmune disease, and I guess he doesn't see a lot of that. He's heard Dr. Dodd speak, and while he values her opinion, he doesn't think it's as clear as she seems to think, so I blamed Joey's breeder!

[Ellie May]

The purpose of titers is to check a few weeks after vaccinating to see if an immune response was stimulated. They fall over time. That is normal. A titer does not have to be high/stable for a dog to be protected.

It won't hurt a darn thing to test, but a low titer means next to nothing. If I remember correctly, Schultz says a titer as low as 1:2 is considered protective, but individual labs have different ideas. So just because a lab says the result is borderline does not mean revaccination is needed. You can give it "just to be safe", and that's fine, but doing so is putting more and more unnecessary toxic chemicals into your pup which can cause very serious diseases.

I stopped titering when Ellie's distemper came back low, then a year after revaccination came back borderline. She could just have a quick falling titer for this disease and be completely protected or it could be lab error and she could be completely protected or she could be a nonresponder and vaccinating would do no good for it to be low twice. For which of these reasons would it make sense to test and then likely have to vaccinate yearly? When vaccines only have to he about 88-90% effective anyway? Pointless for me.

It is my opinion that after the one year booster they either are protected or they aren't. Low titer or not revaccinating every year accomplishes nothing. I think I'd sooner revaccine every 5-7 years (because DHP is effective by challenge for at least that long) instead of spending $90/year for a headache of confusion.

FWIW, Ellie is 12. Her last distemper was given when she was 6. She is alive. I can't think of a good enough reason to revaccinate an old goat like her. Vaccinating for no reason isn't going to make the liver happy either.

I respect Dr. schultz, but when it comes down to it if I'm being honest I would not trust Dodds with my dogs. Just look at everything she believes in....

BTW, I would never want to talk anybody out of titering. Just don't feel like every vet that understands immunology believes in doing it yearly. Look at the AAHA task force. I see nothing in their every 3 year guidelines about titering in between.

[Maximo]

Originally Posted by Teresiana

I have a question for those who choose to limit their dog's vaccinations. How do you have a conversation with your vet about which vaccines you want/don't want administered without offending your vet? It seems like that would be a difficult conversation to have. I looked over Dr. Dodd's Vaccination Protocol & according to it, it seems like the typical pet gets A LOT more than they actually need. My breeder also gave me a book about this. So I'm just wondering how open your vets were to the idea.

Our vet's office promotes annual vaccinations, so I was nervous bringing up the subject with our doctor. I barely completed the first sentence when the doctor said, "The 3 year plan is fine." I am a little bit concerned that our doctor assumes my boys are essentially indoor, never touch the floor type dogs, no matter what I try to say about being outdoors and going places.

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

My vet was a little skeptical. He hates online forums! He's seen the results of no vaccines and told me the story of a parvo outbreak where so many dogs died and in his opinion, the results of over vaccinating are not as clear as the results of under vaccinating. The only thing he mentioned was autoimmune disease, and I guess he doesn't see a lot of that. He's heard Dr. Dodd speak, and while he values her opinion, he doesn't think it's as clear as she seems to think, so I blamed Joey's breeder!

No vaccines, or insufficient vaccines? How often do you give your boys the DHPP?

[lisaly]

Originally Posted by Teresiana

I have a question for those who choose to limit their dog's vaccinations. How do you have a conversation with your vet about which vaccines you want/don't want administered without offending your vet? It seems like that would be a difficult conversation to have. I looked over Dr. Dodd's Vaccination Protocol & according to it, it seems like the typical pet gets A LOT more than they actually need. My breeder also gave me a book about this. So I'm just wondering how open your vets were to the idea.

Katie needed both her rabies and her booster this past May. I was thrilled when my vet said that he didn't want Katie to have both vaccines the same day and that he wanted to wait a month between them. Once I asked about titering, he said that was his preference, since he did not want her to have a vaccine unless it was necessary. We gave her a rabies vaccine because that would have involved sending the blood to California, and regardless, I'm still not sure how New York handles a rabies titer. The vet techs said that some boarding places, groomers, etc. don't recognize a titer test, but that wasn't a concern to me.

I have been with the same vet for fifteen years, and I have great faith in him. I would have listened closely to his concerns if he was against titering, but I still think it's important to be well informed.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

The purpose of titers is to check a few weeks after vaccinating to see if an immune response was stimulated. They fall over time. That is normal. A titer does not have to be high/stable for a dog to be protected.
It won't hurt a darn thing to test, but a low titer means next to nothing. If I remember correctly, Schultz says a titer as low as 1:2 is considered protective, but individual labs have different ideas. So just because a lab says the result is borderline does not mean revaccination is needed. You can give it "just to be safe", and that's fine, but doing so is putting more and more unnecessary toxic chemicals into your pup which can cause very serious diseases.

I stopped titering when Ellie's distemper came back low, then a year after revaccination came back borderline. She could just have a quick falling titer for this disease and be completely protected or it could be lab error and she could be completely protected or she could be a nonresponder and vaccinating would do no good for it to be low twice. For which of these reasons would it make sense to test and then likely have to vaccinate yearly? When vaccines only have to he about 88-90% effective anyway? Pointless for me.

It is my opinion that after the one year booster they either are protected or they aren't. Low titer or not revaccinating every year accomplishes nothing. I think I'd sooner revaccine every 5-7 years (because DHP is effective by challenge for at least that long) instead of spending $90/year for a headache of confusion.

FWIW, Ellie is 12. Her last distemper was given when she was 6. She is alive. I can't think of a good enough reason to revaccinate an old goat like her. Vaccinating for no reason isn't going to make the liver happy either.

I respect Dr. schultz, but when it comes down to it if I'm being honest I would not trust Dodds with my dogs. Just look at everything she believes in....

BTW, I would never want to talk anybody out of titering. Just don't feel like every vet that understands immunology believes in doing it yearly. Look at the AAHA task force. I see nothing in their every 3 year guidelines about titering in between.

This is not what Dr. Dodds says, she says to titer before you do the immunizations. Also, she says, that a low titer gives you valuable information, "When the tests reveal that the animal has borderline or low titer values, the owner and veterinarian should consider revaccinating and then testing the titers again. It may turn out that the animal simply needed a booster to stimulate a stronger immune response. Or, maybe the people involved learn that the animal lacks the ability to respond normally to vaccines, that is, by mounting a proper immune response. In this case, the owner and veterinarian have gained very valuable information about the dog’s compromised immune status – information they never would have gained by simply vaccinating and assuming the dog was “protected” as is usually the case with healthy dogs. As you can see, in reality, simply administering vaccines to dogs every year is more of a guessing game than using titer tests to learn about the dog’s immune competence."

I mean, I can understand why you've made the decision for Ellie May, but what do you mean you wouldn't trust Dr. Dodds and please tell us more about why. I have no idea what else she believe in.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Maximo

Our vet's office promotes annual vaccinations, so I was nervous bringing up the subject with our doctor. I barely completed the first sentence when the doctor said, "The 3 year plan is fine." I am a little bit concerned that our doctor assumes my boys are essentially indoor, never touch the floor type dogs, no matter what I try to say about being outdoors and going places.

No vaccines, or insufficient vaccines? How often do you give your boys the DHPP?

We were getting an annual booster every year until 2010 and since then the titers have said they are covered.

Do you get the bordetella?

[Ellie May]

Humans and dogs get different diseases but there is nothing to indicate that the immune systems of each are that different. Live, attenuated virus vaccines would be things like distemper, parvo, and measles. So my question is this:

Have you had your measles titer checked this year?

[Maximo]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

We were getting an annual booster every year until 2010 and since then the titers have said they are covered.

Do you get the bordetella?

No bordetella. Max had it once when he was 13 weeks old.

[lisaly]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

BTW, I would never want to talk anybody out of titering. Just don't feel like every vet that understands immunology believes in doing it yearly. Look at the AAHA task force. I see nothing in their every 3 year guidelines about titering in between.

I didn't titer Ashley, even though we didn't give her vaccines between the age of eight and seventeen. My veterinarian thought the risks of vaccines were too high. We wouldn't be titering Katie yearly, either, if she had had the DHPP booster this May. Since we titered her this May instead of giving her the booster, my vet recommended that we do it again next spring. In my fifteen years with him, I have never felt that he is doing any unnecessary treatment for the money it would bring him. I'm not sure if the results are valid, but if my vet feels it would be safer to titer every year, I have no problem with it. There seemed to be conflicting information from Dr. Schultz and Dodds about how often to titer when a pup is not immunized.

[Maximo]

Originally Posted by Teresiana

I have a question for those who choose to limit their dog's vaccinations. How do you have a conversation with your vet about which vaccines you want/don't want administered without offending your vet? It seems like that would be a difficult conversation to have. I looked over Dr. Dodd's Vaccination Protocol & according to it, it seems like the typical pet gets A LOT more than they actually need. My breeder also gave me a book about this. So I'm just wondering how open your vets were to the idea.

I should add that our vet knows we are there often. With other dogs, I think part of the concern is that the dog won't have a wellness check for years if no vaccination is scheduled. Some people will argue that the vet's motive is solely more visits and profit, but I do think there is also a general health concern.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Humans and dogs get different diseases but there is nothing to indicate that the immune systems of each are that different. Live, attenuated virus vaccines would be things like distemper, parvo, and measles. So my question is this:

Have you had your measles titer checked this year?

No, but I'm not worried about getting measles. We are often in a park that many dogs use, Joey and Ralphie are not lap dogs.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Maximo

No bordetella. Max had it once when he was 13 weeks old.

Thanks, I was worried about not getting him that too.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

This is not what Dr. Dodds says, she says to titer before you do the immunizations. Also, she says, that a low titer gives you valuable information, "When the tests reveal that the animal has borderline or low titer values, the owner and veterinarian should consider revaccinating and then testing the titers again. It may turn out that the animal simply needed a booster to stimulate a stronger immune response. Or, maybe the people involved learn that the animal lacks the ability to respond normally to vaccines, that is, by mounting a proper immune response. In this case, the owner and veterinarian have gained very valuable information about the dog’s compromised immune status – information they never would have gained by simply vaccinating and assuming the dog was “protected” as is usually the case with healthy dogs. As you can see, in reality, simply administering vaccines to dogs every year is more of a guessing game than using titer tests to learn about the dog’s immune competence."

I mean, I can understand why you've made the decision for Ellie May, but what do you mean you wouldn't trust Dr. Dodds and please tell us more about why. I have no idea what else she believe in.

She is a major veterinary homeopathy supporter, which is fine if that is the kind of medicine you believe in...

Her views on heartworm preventative and balanced diets are not good, imo.


Rylee will also only be vaccinated every 5 years. The kids do not go to and never will be allowed to go to dog parks but they definitely are allowed where strange dogs have been. My biggest concern here is lepto honestly..

I think if titering makes an owner feel more secure then they should do it. But just like vaccinating doesn't mean 100% protection for all dogs, neither does a high titer.

BTW, I don't think Dodds even recommends titering annually for most dogs. Triennially or more...

The AAHA, AVMA, and all veterinary schools in the US seem to be fine with vaccinating no more than every 3 years without mentioning titers.

ETA: It is good to titer before and after, but weeks after to see if the vaccine 'took'. It will naturally drop a year after.

Dodds and Schultz also seem to have differing opinions on what a low titer represents. Dodds says revaccinate. It looks like Schultz says that unless it is 0 it is ok.