I've heard different stories as to which other breeds Mr. Biewer had at the time--I'm still waiting for the definitive answer to that question, because that could be the answer to where the piebald gene came from. But yes, DNA analysis could determine which breed supplied the piebald gene.

Here is another smoking gun. I was going to propose that someone cross a Biewer to a piebald Maltese to see whether the offspring would be piebald. If the offspring were piebald, that would prove that Biewers definitely carry the piebald gene. (This kind of cross is what geneticists call an allele test.) But I didn't say anything because I thought it would be unethical to ask someone to do that kind of cross. But guess what? While I was googling Biewer and Maltese, I found this ad: MORKIE German Biewer Yorkie / Maltese cross | North Port | eBay Classifieds (Kijiji) | 27676387. Someone has already done the cross, and the result is a piebald dog! Boo-yaaaa!!!!! I will attach a photo of the dog in case the ad disappears.

I'm sorry, but Heir Biewer only bred Yorkshire Terriers. He was a breeder/shower of yorkies. He did have one other little dog as a pet, I forget the breed, however it was neutered. This information is well documented.

Diana :animal-pa

And I do the same. And I only breed Biewer to Biewer .

I don't think anyone was questioning that the Biewer has the spotting gene were they? If they didn't carry the gene.. they would look just like a standard yorkie.. black and tan. The spotting gene takes away the color thus giving them the White.

Hi Diana, just because a dog looks piebald doesn't mean that it is caused by a mutation in the piebald gene--there could be other as-yet undiscovered mutations in other genes that could cause the same appearance. I hadn't seen any proof that the Biewer coat color gene is due to a mutation in the MITF (piebald) gene. This Biewer/Maltese cross proves it to me. Maybe others have done this test, but I hadn't come across it yet. To me, the question remains, is the DNA sequence of the mutation in the piebald gene in Biewers the same as the DNA sequence of the mutation in the Maltese (and other breeds with proven piebald genes)? If so, that would prove to me that the origin of the piebald gene in Biewers is a cross of a Yorkshire Terrier with some other breed carrying a piebald gene. Genetically speaking, new mutations don't occur in the exact same place with exactly the same DNA sequence, and the piebald mutations in other breeds have a very distinctive DNA sequence. I don't care what Mr. Biewer said back in the 1980's, if the piebald gene came from some other breed that was crossed into his Yorkshire Terrier lines, then the Biewer is the result of a mixed breed dog. It wasn't necessarily Mr. Biewer who did this--it could have already been in the lines he got from England. I'm just trying to get at the truth.

Evidently, the Healthgene company knows the answer to this question, because they have a test for the piebald gene in Yorkshire Terriers and Biewers: Parti Color Yorkshire Terrier l Coat Color Test - HealthGene

I have sent them a technical email asking them for details about what they are testing for, and how they determine the difference between the piebald mutation and the normal Yorkshire Terrier MITF gene. If the answer is by the presence of the SINE DNA insertion and/or the length polymorphism in the regulatory region of the piebald version of the MITF gene, then it's case closed for me.

Yes.. that is the company many of the Parti people use for their color testing and I assume their testing for spotting gene. I hope they answer your question for you and you get what you are looking for.
Diana

I like them both too ! :)

Yes, I have have heard about the question of whether Biewers have Irish spotting (si) or piebald spotting (sp). They are both different mutations in the same gene. I can't answer that question based on appearance, because I've seen a broad range of degree of spotting in Biewers--some look Irish, and some look more piebald. Supposedly, the piebald gives more variation in the different patterns you see, so that's why I was guessing that Biewers are piebald, but hopefully the testing company will be able to answer the question for certain.

VetGen - Veterinary Genetic Services

This company also tests for the S locus..

Diana :animal-pa

:thumbup::thumbup: Thanks! If I don't get an answer from HealthGene, I'll write to VetGen. Here is a link to all the tests VetGen does for Yorkshire Terriers:

VetGen: Veterinary Genetic Services - Canine - Order Tests

The Biewers owned a singular other dog, a neutered Tibetan Terrier. He bought a yorkshire terrier stud, named Steamglen Richard from kennels located in England. He bred Richard virtually to every female he owned. Richard is the grandsire on on both sides of the pedigrees of Fru Fru von Friedheck and Darling von Friedheck. They were the pair which produced the first tri colored puppy.

And across the ocean in the US...Nikko had also purchased a dog from Streamglen. This dog was also on both sides of the pedigree in the tri colored puppy produced.

So any cross breeding that introduced the piebald gene occurred at Streamglen.

From there the path Mr. Biewer took and the US parti breeders took were entirely different.

At this point where the color came from, what breeds are behind the color, the name of the breed...is all moot. Biewers moved much further than Germany and the US. They are recognized as a breed of its own in several countries, in registries recognized by akc, and are shown as such in FCI events.

And on parsons terrier boards people used to argue that the "breed" were jack russells...well guess what...akc recognizes now them as two distinct breeds. :)

So the piebald trait was already present in Streamglen dogs, and Richard was probably a carrier. Fascinating! Thanks for the information!

No not probably. Streamglen Shaun is the common ancestor between the two, however he's on both sides of Mr. Biewer's Streamglen Richard's ped but only a singular time in Streamglen's Milady who is behind the Nikko line.

Thank you for this. My "breeder" called my dog a Biewer and docked her tail...too short at that. They were basically step up from back yard breeders and I do not believe would know the difference between Biewer and Parti. I did see the parents though and there were traditional Yorkies. So she must be a Parti??

Is your dog registered with the AKC as a Yorkshire Terrier? If so, it's safe to call her a Parti Colored Yorkshire Terrier, or Parti for short.

No, there were no papers.

Wasn't the BTCA once the BYTCA? Didn't they have the largest membership with members owning dogs from just about every breeder in Germany? Each breeder went to their Vet and the Vet sent in the blood samples. Are you saying that the Vets lied when they sent in the blood samples? Didn't they do the Mars test to actually prove Mr. Biewer's story to be true? Why then would the study be flawed? I believe that quite a few members that were included in that study have quit the BTCA and joined the bbca so ask them if they lied when THEY submitted samples. The BTCA dropped the Yorkshire because the Mars test proved the dog was mixed. How was this test suppose to be tainted?
Mr. Biewer never owned Streamglen Richard. He sold his RARE, BLACK AND WHITE YORKIES for today's price of $10,000 to $15,000. If he would have told people that he was developing a new breed he couldn't sell them for $10.00, so of course he would say the were purebred.

In 1975 Mr. Biewer purchased a pair of adult dogs from Streamglen. Streamglen Richard (M) and Streamglen Flora (F). Richard was shown and championed in Germany.

The vast majority of btca members owned Kobolden lines from Manuela Glasser.

In that case, you may never know whether your dog descended from Biewer or Parti lineage, or how purebred it is, but it is definitely safe to say that your dog carries the piebald coat color allele introgressed into the Yorkshire Terrier breed. That covers all bases. But I would be willing to grant you honorary Parti Colored Yorkshire Terrier status for sticking with this thread this far. Anyway the most important thing is that your dog is loved :love:.

GOSH IRIS!!! I am a little confused-- The blood samples collected by our vets were sent to Dr. Ellison, Gayle Pruetts vet not direct to MARS. The results of the initial tests were returned to Gayle Pruett. Gayle Pruett in turn interpreted the results of the tests. Flaws--- ask Mrs. Pruett!!!

As far as Streamglen Richard, please refer to INGRUS for list of some of the puppies sired by the Friedheck kennel(Mr. Biewer) STREAMGLEN RICHARD - World Pedigree DataBase Biewer Yorkshire Terrier, Biewer Yorkshire Terrier Pedigree DataBase.

If everyone would stick to the facts instead of heresay and gossip, then the Biewer Breed might stand of chance of true recognition. Lets stop throwing innuendos and slurs on the people not here to defend what their intentions and goals were.

The information on Ingrus is flawed and NOT reliable. Some of the entries are not correct as I have seen this for my own eyes. I have compared actual pedigrees to information posted on this site and it does not always match. Again, before DNA pedigrees were an honor system and the pedigrees from Germany cannot be held as fact.

Also, majority of the dogs in the study were not only Kobolden, many were Art of High Class among others. Please stick to the facts.

GOSH GAYLE!!!! No one stated that the INGRUS information is cerified. It is simply a souce of information and collection of data. For the time being it is a wonderful collection of information from all over the world. There are bound to be errors and misinformation. At least it is a starting point to gather information on the breed. Now is we only had people that are really interested in gathering facts to improve the data base information instead of attacking the credibility of the collection of data. " Since we are all working for the betterment of the breed"

I'm sorry but you are incorrect, I am not Gayle although contrary to what the Parti people and "Biewer Breed" people think, based on the MARS information and advances of the BIEWER TERRIER I feel she has done more important things for the breed than anyone else...my opionion and I don't care what nasty rebuttals anyone has. And I am as interested in gathering FACTS about this breed as anyone else so why would I use a "starting point" that you yourself admits has errors and misinformation? As far as i'm concerned the ancestry and information about the beginnings of the breed are faulty and full of question marks and hearsay and I don't put much emphasis on it, instead I choose to seek information that can be verified, information that is current and FACT based.

What they are or how they got to this point really is a moot point now almost.. what SHOULD matter is What is being produced and the health of these dogs!!

We have a silent problem out there.. silent because people have been told to "keep quiet".. "stay still".. or "look the other way".. We have over 40 (I believe) cases where people have been brave enough not to stay quiet.. they have shared their information and we have followed their pedigrees. There are common names, common links. There are lines out there with this issue, this issue of seizures. There are definite lines to worry about, and lines not to mix together. There is information available but no one will talk about it.. no one is willing to share information, they would rather say "All is well" and ignore the problem. I have been told there are a few "clean" lines out there.. I don't know I haven't had the good fortune to have found any of them in any of my dogs... they maybe out there but these dogs are so tightly bred it would be difficult at best to find them. IMO

So, let's just keep breeding Biewer to Biewer and keep producing these cute little bundles of fluff without a care in the world, and then if/when there is a problem.. just everyone SHHHHHH!

In the end, who is hurt? ask Cleo, Mercedes, Lady, Fancy, Briella, Nobel, Fairy, Fellio, ... and the list goes on.

Diana :animal-pa

I will agree with you on the fact that health is paramount and seizures are an issue to focus on however, Yorkies are plagued with the same issue as well as Maltese and breeding Biewers to Yorkies is no "safer" then Biewer to Biewer especially if you feel these dogs are Yorkies. Seizures are an issue in toy breeds period and not isolated to Biewers. Breeding Biewers to Yorkies just creates diluted Biewer genes and diluted Yorkie genes both carrying seizure genetics. Every breed known today has its issues and these very breeds can be traced back to a small group of individual dogs. In Germany the biewers were intermingled with Yorkies and god knows what else so the gene pool is diverse contrary to what some will dispute. More diverse than the foundations of most established breeds we know today. IMO the bigger problem is the constant he said she said, fighting and smearing that goes on in this breed that has cut off the possibility of breeders from both sides of the fence coming together to expand and improve the breeding pool but it is very clear to me that that isn't happening anytime soon. Too many of the people breeding these dogs are more interested in cashing in on a trend or smacking down a fellow breeder so they can sell more of their own dogs. I have been in dogs, multiple breeds, for more than 25 years and I have never seen such disgraceful behavior among breeders than I have within this breed. Everyone is in a race to nowhere! No one is exempt either. I have done my research and I feel from what information is out there and from the dogs I own that this is a breed outside the yorkie and it will eventually be seen that way. Hopefully the people will then finally come together for the breed and not themselves. I have avoided this forum because of the fighting I have heard about and and now I see why. ridiculous people!

I am not Iris, but I agree with BWRterrierfan about Gayle. The samples went to Mars and the results went to Dr. Ellison. Dr. Ellison them gave them to Gayle Pruett as she was the president of the BTCA. There was no need to interpret anything as the results were written just as the results are when you get them back directly from Mars. How can that be flawed. Did you yourself take in something other than a Biewer? That is the only way the results can be flawed. Are you saying that the Vets are dishonest? I know that Mrs. Pruett's Vet invested a lot of time and energy to help the BTCA and I don't think she would appreciate being called a criminal.

So seizures are showing up in the lines of biewers? Is that in biewer to biewer breedings or is that showing up in all the lines

All documented cases have been from Biewer to Biewer breedings but One. Some were from dogs brought straight from Germany. The one that was not a full Biewer to Biewer breeding was a "carrier" female (Biewer mother/yorkie father) bred BACK to a Biewer father (not one of mine and I thought a different enough line.. ha!).. I thought those pups would be safe, but I was wrong.. I have learned that I can NEVER go back to a Biewer with any of my dogs that have ANY Biewer in them.. or I just wait for the shoe to drop and another poor dog to suffer.

Yes.. the Yorkies have seizures too.. but in no where NEAR the numbers we are seeing in the Biewers. My friend has been breeding yorkies for 30 years and could count on one hand the number of yorkies she's HEARD of with seizures.. not the case with the Biewer population that's for sure!



Diana :animal-pa