interesting info on all parts, and from what I heard there is a very strong division of beliefs. Anywho, regardless of how much a topic has been beat to death not everyone is aware of that. Sometimes links to old threads are helpful or a simple that has been discussed to death, if you do a search you might get quicker answers goes a long way.

So OP there is lot of info on this way beyond what is posted here. No matter what the true answer is I find Parties or Biewers quite adorable.

I also like the idea of mixing parties and Biewers that some breeders are doing. IMO a breed that young and that expensive probably does have a relatively small gene pool to work with.

Hi, I checked out the link on that website here:

Parti/Biewer Difference? - Quality Traditional and Parti Yorkshire Terriers

I found this paragraph:

IN the USA's demand for more Biewers there was possibly some mixing of breeds done in Germany to supply the demand for the Biewers, The BTCA says they are a mixed breed because they have had DNA tested on 100 Biewers, If this is true that they show up as not a Yorkshire Terrier then indeed some mixes were added which makes them not a true Biewer, The true Biewer (In name Only) tri colored yorkie in Germany came from 2 traditional colored Yorkshire Terriers , How can they be a separate breed? They came from 2 yorkies that carried the gene to produce tri colors. They were not mixes they were JR Champions and they were all Yorkshire Terrier.

If it is the case that the Germans may have been supplying mixed breed dogs to meet American demand for Biewers, then that muddies up the situation considerably! And as for the "tri colored yorkie in Germany [that] came from 2 traditional colored Yorkshire Terriers," we only have their word for it, since there was no genetic testing at that time, and you had to take a breeder's word for it that he or she was working with pure lines. Believe me, the MARS test IS scientific and it is the best test available at this time--it is used by veterinary researchers and veterinarians worldwide. Breed identification through DNA analysis will only improve with time, whether it is MARS that does it, or whether some other company starts doing it. Perhaps every Biewer should be tested--it would only add $80 or so to the price, which is a small price to pay for peace of mind, and it would also add to the scientific database of knowledge about this interesting and controversial dog.

Also, if people are breeding Biewers with standard color Yorkshire Terriers in order to increase their base of genetic diversity, of course the progeny will become more and more Yorkie-like over time in DNA tests. Personally, I would like to see Biewers maintained as their own separate line by crossing Biewers with Biewers--otherwise, you are going to start losing the personality differences that some people claim also make Biewers distinct from Yorkies (besides their color pattern).

BTW, I have no stake in this controversy other than providing the most scientific information (in my judgment) that is currently available.

No, I have never and will never had my Biewers tested with the MARS test. Why would I? Do they have the Biewer Terrier back on the list of dogs again? I thought they took it off after the lawsuit. The information that group of "ladys" submitted for that so called breed was so tainted I thought they had pulled it. It was such a small collection of dogs used it could hardly be called much of a sample.

I do not have Biewer Terriers.. I have/had Biewer Yorkshire Terriers.. I do not breed Biewer to Biewer.. I have learned my lesson! That line of yorkies is far to in bred, to many genetic problems, and still you hear people shouting from the roof tops BREED BIEWER TO BIEWER ONLY!!! MY GRACIOUS!!! What are we trying to prove??? What is the goal??? What can possibly be that important??? Is it REALLY that important to SAY both of my dogs can trace back to Mr Biewers original YORKIE!! I mean really?? so what if my dog has bad digestion, seizures, teeth, liver ???

I understand ALL yorkies have these same issues.. BUT, when you have such a limited gene pool to begin with.. where do you go when you know these problem exist??? How long can you stick your head in the sand before you can no longer breath?? Is if fair to bring the puppies down with you?

I breed back to Yorkies, I also breed to Parti yorkies.. I am ALWAYS honest..

Yes, I believe some of my dogs were directly related to the dogs used in the group these "lady's" submitted for the Biewer Terrier data.. if they actually submitted samples from the dogs they said they did, which of course I question because I question everything that these people say and do.

I no longer have any of those Biewers as I have had to spay/ neuter all of my dogs because of genetic issues that I did not want to pass on to future generations.

Diana :animal-pa

you are making me laugh

Sorry, I was writing my post while you were writing yours.

I WISH there was a good test, really I do, however.. for good results, you would need good data FIRST!

The original data used to create the Biewer profile was not good.. I don't believe there was 100 dogs.. they SAID they used 100.. questionable at best! And, if they were all Biewers.. also, questionable.. with the results they were getting you have to wonder WHAT they used as there test samples??

I'm all for science and believe me, if it was a test using anyone else's data OTHER than the BTCA'S I'd be all for it.. I dare say everyone would be.

But, it still wouldn't get me to breed Biewer to Biewer.. Health First is my motivation.. nothing else matters in my book.

Diana :animal-pa

Quit spinning your wheels and trying to confuse people partis cannot be shown in Akc shows with the exception of agility because their color is considered a fault by their mother club the Y$CA

It's goes far deeper than that.. the main kennel that produced these Parti pups was shut down for DNA testing on generations of dogs by the AKC. They had to PROVE that these Parti dogs came from traditional parents before they were allowed to be registered.

The YTCA will still not accept these "off colored" yorkies, but the AKC was able to prove, through DNA that the parti pups came from traditional parents, just like in Heir Biewers case. It is no different. The Biewer pups, born from traditional parents are yorkies. In Germany, they are still bred to yorkies, not only to other Biewers. In the same litter you will have some dogs registered as Biewers, some as yorkies, all based on their COLOR!

In Germany, that color can make them their own BREED, here... of course it can not.

Diana :animal-pa

Hi Diana,

Yes, Biewer Terriers are back on Wisdom Panel's list of breeds detected:

Biewer Terrier | Wisdom Panel

I wasn't aware of the lawsuit, so if you have links to information about that I'd be interested in reading it--I like collecting as much information as possible before I form an opinion. I believe that the Wisdom Panel has about 100 Biewers in its DNA collection--that's in comparison with about 300 standard color Yorkshire Terriers. I'm just throwing that out as interesting information. Clearly, they need more samples of all breeds to add to their database to improve their accuracy.

I do respect your honesty, I appreciate the problems that arise when working with a limited gene pool, and I understand why you bred Biewers to Yorkies in order to broaden the gene pool. And I'm sorry that you had to spay/neuter your breeding stock because it had accumulated too many unhealthy traits. I didn't come here to judge or condemn, I just came here to learn and also to provide what information I know. Thanks for helping me out!

Of course they can not be shown in AKC shows!!! AKC is not the only place to show dogs.. we can show parti's with IABCA and also I believe with ARBA although I have never shown with them.

I'm sorry if you got confused.

Diana :animal-pa

And I was writing a reply when you wrote this ;). I agree, if you're going to develop a breed-specific test, you need to test a wide variety of dogs. But at the same time, they need to conform to some kind of standard. I would love to see the test results for Biewers that come from other groups and from other parts of the US. I'll leave it at that. Please post information about that law suit you mentioned if you have it. Thanks!

Then say that dont insinuate they can be shown AKC which is what people think of when it comes to showing not these other registrys you have named that who knows who they are

My Biewer(s)
Mia 1: Floppy ears, deaf, very very pink skin, heart defects, spotted like a dalmation with the in addition to the "standard" marks...She lived a year :(

Mia 2: Floppy ears, very very very pink skin, long and tall, beautiful but schizophrenic, I swear she is hyper as hyper can be.

My Yorkies:
Miss Mini: Puppy Mill dog...however; disposition is absolutely typical yorkie.
Vincenzo: Picture perfect Yorkie in every way!


Vincenzo:

I DO understand that your diatribe is part of the over all controversy with the Biewer. I HAVE read the prior YT posts dealing with this issue where a lot of breeders on ALL sides tossed a lot of mud around. I HAVE read about the people who falsified award records in 2010. I HAVE visted and read through all the different "clubs" & registries. I HAVE also already read about the controversy with DNA testing. And probably everything else having to do with this would be, soon to be or already is an independent breed.

I think I've done enough to reach my own conclusion - even if I never mated 2 tri-colored dogs myself.

FOR ALL BIEWER or PARTI-YORKIE NEWBIES: It's not that difficult to follow. You can reach your own conclusion for yourself too.

I don't think any corner should take the bully pulpit. It's easy enough for people who can read & navigate the web to figure out. It's not rocket science -- just people & dogs and everything's posted online somewhere.

Tracey

I would never insinuate we could show Partis with AKC.. everyone knows that is not possible right now!! Geez...

I'm sorry if you are unaware of all the other venues open for people to show their dogs. There are opportunities available other than just the AKC and people actually have fun.

Diana :animal-pa

I'm sorry.. I'm sure Mia 1 had a wonderful home with you while she was on this earth and Mia 2 is well loved!! Have fun with your little tribe!

Diana :animal-pa

It is the BTCA Who believe the biewers are a separate breed and had them Mars tested. Greenwoodbiewer is giving an opinion from one club only and they havent did any genetic testing to prove their theory. We used to have BTCA members on here in the past and if you want to read some posts from them put biewers in the search bar and search old threads. There is alot of controversy surrounding the biewers as you can see

I really don't know anyone personally that has tested their Biewers.. I have heard of Parti people who have used the test to see if their Parti was a Yorkshire. As of right now the results are not admissible in court.

As far as the mentioned lawsuit, it was not specifically about the MARS test, I only know that for awhile, the Biewer Terrier was removed from the list and was unaware that they put it back up.

Diana :animal-pa

MARS never removed biewer terrier from their website. It had been listed under the test for mixed breeds but seems now their products have all changed into a singular one.

actually, I believe it was gone for awhile.. people said they couldn't find it.. I went and looked for it when they asked me too.. and I couldn't find it either. I really don't know why it wasn't listed but it wasn't anywhere on the site.. I don't know for how long or the reasoning behind it.. just know it was not there when I looked.

I was secretly hoping they had a "Eureka' moment.. but I guess that's not the case since it's back again ha.. such a pity :)

Diana :animal-pa

The story of the "original" Biewers is filled with holes. The FACT is that the whole story is based on a story passed on from person to person. Before DNA pedigrees were an honor systems from which many of the German imports had falsified papers. Sad as it may be it is true. The MARS testing has been tried over and over and it does give an accurate result with a very small margin of error contrary to what some say, even those who admit to never doing it or even knowing anyone who has. No one can definitively say their dogs are direct descendents of the Biewers dogs because many of the lines out of Germany had "doctored" papers and the biggest Biewer registry in Germany that people like to reference will register Yorkies, Biewers, Biros and Golddust and allows all of them to cross so this is not credible. The original Biewer and its truth is and will be a mystery. through the years yorkies were bred with "Biewers" and other breeds and new genes entered the gene pool resulting in what is known today as "Biewers" and the BTCA, regardless of the nay sayers, has used the research study and the MARS test to help have the breed recognized as a PURE BREED in America byt the American Rare Breed Assoc. in South Africa by the KUSA and in Brasil by the CBKC. I have done my research for a very long time and I have been in dogs for 26 years and I am quite convinced that Biewer Terriers are not Yorkies. Crossing Biewers and yorkies gets you a mixed breed. plain and simple. Now there are Biros and golddusts?? What next? Biewer Terriers DO NOT produce these new colors, why not?? Beacuse they are a breed not a variety of yorkie. Sorry to those who will dispute me but I need no more proof, this is a breed.

Hi Lynzy,

I'm sorry to hear about the health of your Biewers :(. For a point of reference, were these BTCA Biewers, or Biewers derived from more recent crosses to Yorkies? I'm just trying to absorb as much information as possible.

Yes indeed, I'm reading all this information too. I read about the DNA tests and the falsified records, and I'm the verge of forming an opinion. I'm just waiting for the last few pieces of the puzzle. My question is, when I've formed my opinion, should I state it, or keep it to myself :eek: ? I'm inclined to state it, but if I do, I'll back it up with evidence and give my reasoning.

State it ive read alot of biewer threads and Im curious

You don't need our opinion to do one thing or the other. The issue as you should have seen is and has been pretty divisive as a hot topic.

Those that care to put their passion aside, and to try to understand the science, might get their world view expanded. And those that want only to understand only their fixed point of view, will remain fixated on that.

It truly is the KISS principle. That is an ancient term I know which defines my age:D

As you know, my opinion will be based on science, but I'll try to keep it simple. And I won't base my opinion on any particular agenda or fixed point of view, because I don't own a Biewer or have any close friends who own Biewers. But I have to admit that they are as cute as buttons! How is that for full disclosure? :D

I don't believe in the "science" of MARS testing for any breed or mix. Period. I never tested my biewers...but know others which did when the test was originally offered. Saluki came back as a result and basset hound in another. The test can only determine within 3 generations. I've seen some biewers with large ears...but not basset hound size. This was one test result. There are others just as off the wall.
MARS also communicated the test is fallible to AKC. Scroll down to page 4 regarding a request by the parent club of Norwich terriers.
https://images.akc.org/pdf/board_minutes/0712.pdf

I know people which knew the two breeds behind their mixed breed litters...and the results were no where close.

What do you know? I've reached the same conclusion, so far, as you! The Biewer is an adorable dog!

In full disclosure, I have a little guy reserved for me in Virginia right now.

And I will say that when I was looking for one, I found that the prices were comparable no matter how the pup was registered and whatever "club" affiliation the breeder had.

I think they're pricey because they are so darn cute!

Tracey

My puppies are priced no more than any reputable show breeder of any breed asks. I show in the venues in which I'm allowed under AKC judges, I health test my breeding pairs, my puppies have liver panels done along with regular screenings, my contract is more generous than most, I stand behind my breedings. I'm doing all I can... to produce healthy puppies.
And yes they are pretty dang cute too. :)

The MARS test that must be performed is the the Wisdom Panel PROFESSIONAL Unrivaled Dog Breed Detection & Accuracy - Wisdom Panel Professional which is a blood draw NOT the cheek swab test. The cheek swab test does not compare the same markers as the blood test. The cheek swab test will have some odd results however the blood draw test is quite accurate. While many people say they have not used it or they have a friend who did etc., I can say I personally have tried it on Biewers as well as mixes to test the accuracy for my own knowledge and it was 100% spot on for each of the tests I performed.

The MARS test which must be used is the WISDOM PANEL PROFESSIONAL which is a blood test, NOT the cheek swab test. The Blood test is quite accurate and I say this with my own personal first hand experience. I tested Biewers as well as some mixes to check the accuracy of the test and it was 100% spot on! The cheek swab test is not the same as the blood test.