What should you expect to find in health warranty and be realistic
 

We look at a lot of health warranties and the double talk and wording. So lets sit down as a group and come up with some basics that folks should loog for when wanting to purchase a puppy. This will also give breeders a chance to say why some things can not be covered and or exluded them from the contract.

I will start out with a exclusion- upright ears. Most of my kids have upright ears by 6 weeks of age. I start trimming at 2-3 and tape. Will they go up and down yes- as they are teething and just because they can. When a baby goes home new parents are told how to keep the hair trimmed on the ear- what can cause them to drop and what to do-tape and how to tape.
Told call if you have any other questions. I do not guarantee upright ears consider it" enviromental" Enviromental meaning- if the new owner does not keep the hair trimmed or tape a dropped ear - the ears may never stand again.

This is something I had control of while in my care- if you the new owner do not keep up the care and grooming involved for those upright ears- you are responsible- not me for the problem.

Do I owe you any money back-no-
Am I a bad breeder because that ear did not stand-no
Is that a recourse for you to bad mouth me- no
Should you be able to get a new puppy- no

Ok that gives us just one starting point and my thought on this issue. Let the fun begin. Lets try and be realistic and come up with a basic guidline to help those looking to a buy a puppy and the health warranty issues.

Ahh...good post. This will be great for me to make sure I have our 'sales agreement' just right before these little angels go to their new homes. I think I've covered everything, but it never hurts to have an outside opinion from an experienced breeder.
1) I guaranteed health/life for 6 mo-specifiying that it would not include complications due from physical injury, disease (from non-vaccination), aka rabies, parvo, etc. Pretty much it was limited to what a vet could rule as a 'genetic disorder.'
2) I stated that genetic deiscrepencies such as over/underbite, floppy ears, color, etc. were NOT guaranteed. (Let me say, there is no history of these in the bloodline.) As well as complications from Hypoglycemia, which new owners are educated on, given information on and given Nutrical w/ directions for use.

Does this sound right? Of course, it is a little more detailed in the ACTUAL agreement, but you get the jist?

Kathy you always start the greatest post can wait to see what others have to say.

Carol

hmmmmmmmmm...let's see, any genetic problems should be covered...LS, LPs (both LPs). Ears, roached back, no (it's not a health problem).

Ear mites, mange things like that should be covered as with that one kennel. Personally, a pup SHOULD NOT LEAVE THE BREEDER'S CARE UNLESS THE PUP IS 100% PERFECT HEALTH WISE!!!!! Just my opinion. Why should the new owners have to deal with the heart ache of a sick pup?

It does not matter how old you are- or how long in the tooth- make sure that the writing is clear and precise.

I have a mess going on myself right now- because I took the breeders word.
Wrong. We all need to learn and can discuss all the things from health issues to the actual ownership and rights of the breeder/seller and the owner.

Yes...agree. I would never send a pup home if it was sick, be it life threatening or not.

did I say something wrong? :confused:

I am not a breeder but I do know that it is of vital importance for the puppies to stay with their mothers until they are at least 10weeks old. Some breeders and specifically here in Germany do not give out puppies that are younger than 12weeks old.

So lets take this a step further- You want ears covered- how can I cover something that you have not taken care of. LP- how do you cover LP when it is can be caused enriomentally. Sound pup new owner takes it home lets it jump off of high furniture over and over again injures itself with the result being LP- Should I as the breeder be held responsible for this.

TX- you have a litter of puppies will you cover all these things on your new babies.

You have a health certificate from Vet A that states puppy is in good shape- Vet B states that puppy has ear mites. Which vet is correct? How would you handle the situation? What is fair to both parties.

No not at all you silly goose. I was just saying no matter who wise you think you are (me) you can still step into a pile of manure.

No, Kathy, you misread what I put...ears, roached backs are not covered because they will not dampen the health of the dog...it's not a health risk or life threatening...please go back and reread. :)

I want all sorts of things to be thrown out on this thread. - look at them from all sides. Discuss all of it. Take what we learn and try and come up with some kind of a guidline that will help everyone in the future. That is my goal for this thread.

What about heart murmurs, nervous system problems, shouldn't those be covered?

Sorry- will still go with the question though- I have had folks upset about ears.
That is why I grabbed the ears part- and how many questions we get about them.

If I have a roached back puppy or one with something that I consider a fault -I include it on a line for inclusions. That way no one can come back and say you didn't tell me that my dog only had testicle. This is just a example.

One or no testicle...this is something that I've heard a lot about lately. To me, a breeder should deduct the cost of the neuter since these can be cancerous.

They sure should. Wouldn't you say that a lot of murmurs have been caught by babies being taken to the vet while still with the breeder. How many of you have bought a dog that has never been to the vet for one single check up? Read the ads in your local paper and call- you will be amazed at how many puppies first vet check will be with you the new owner.

My contract is very standard. It covers 1 year hereditary or congenital. If a situation comes up I address it individually. I use my contract as a guide. Not to say well it's been a year so your Yorkie has LP now or LS too bad so sad..NOOO...I will be more than happy to look into it and have vet proof that is from hereditary and work on a compromise from there. A reasonable time frame like 2 or 3 yrs over my standard guarantee..I don't anticipate many problems. I have my parents screened before breeding. I do not compromise anything. So far I have not had any issues. No LP or LS and I've had 20 pups so far. The only thign that did come up was a cocci episode..and I paid for that. Even though my contract said I don't have to. It's all about being fair. And standing behind your pups.

As for LP my vet has told me that LP is hereditary it is not something acquired as a result of an injury. Now the same symptoms can result from a knee injury from jumping etc..to be certain if it's hereditary or injury related you need ot have Xrays done. Now, my vet is a reproduction specialist; the leading one in this country. He knows his stuff. So breeders may want to consider xraying to be certain it's a hereditary defect or as a result of injury.
My pups are evaluated 3 times at least all 3 times special attention is given to the knees. I also do a full blood panel and at least 3 full stool exams to cover cocci, giardia and othe rparasites. It's still not full proof but I am doign all I can to ensure the pup is health before leaving my home.

I also take a check list to my vet, he goes through and initals each thing he has checked. That' helps in showing that I do have everything examined.

Good thread kath!!

Hugs,
Irene

This is what I have done. I purchased a little male who did not drop his testicles. I placed him as a pet with full disclosure of the problem. They wanted him as a pet and were going to have him altered. They took him to my vet- I paid the differance between what they would have paid for altering the dog and what they were charged. It was $65.00. Some vets will charge you out of sight fees. So be careful.

Kathy, Kathy, Kathy...LOL! You sound kinda pi$$ed today. you doing okay? ;)

I bought a pup once that had anohter pups health certificate. I knew this simply because the DOB and weights were wrong. The pup also ended up have grades 2-3 LP in BOTH knees..I was told 'oops, I guess my vet missed that'..crooks i tell ya!!

All my male pets leave with out both testes..I have them neutered..rofllll

YIKES! Oh, my...I'll leave my choice words out of this! :thumbdown

It was clear the pup wasn't checked because she took the pup back w/out argument. She replaced it wiht another pup that was only 6 wks old..younger than she told me (same health cert as the pup i returned mind you). That pup passed away from hypoglycemia while I was at work. Another tough learning experience..Needless to say I lost lots a money from that deal...but it was an expesive lesson well learned....this happend a few years back when I was still trying to accquire my foundation..

HOLY, MOSES! A hard lesson, indeed. :thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown

I think alot of dishonest breeders live on the hopes that they can fool you about the health of a pup/dog upfront and by the time you have had it vet checked, you will be too attached to it to give it up, allowing them to keep your money. :eek:
I met a breeder when looking for Trixie who tried to sell me...well, I don't know WHAT she tried to sell me...and told me just to take it home and if I didn't fall in love with it she would give me my money back. :eek: :eek: Needless to say, we high-tailed it outta there!

i'm not a breeder and not even a dog guru so i don't know all the terms and abreviations used to describe certain things so i'll just put it in the most simplistic terms. this is what i'd like to see:

- the puppy should be delivered, as described, in optimal health requiring no special care upon arrival other than an exam from the vet to confirm health and wellbeing of the pup. side note: sure the pup can get sick on the flight in cargo, but if that is a possibility, then maybe the puppy should not be shipped. i think the well being of the pup should remain with the breeder until i receive the pup, not end when the breeder puts the pup on the plane.

- warranty against conditions in the health of the pet that can develop through no fault of my own.

- term of the warranty should span the time it takes for the pet to develop the health condition. ie, if it takes 3 years for a condition to reveal itself then the term should cover 3 years. maybe do a more comprehensive warranty for the first year and a more limited warranty after that.

- no warranty against conditions that are cosmetic in nature and will not effect the well being of the dog as a puppy and as an adult dog.

- no warranty against conditions that is completely within my control with proper care of the pet, its living conditions and environment.

- no warranty against conditions that may occur in pets through the natural course of aging unless it's considered a genetic defect.

- unless it's a local sale, don't require the buyer to ship a sick or dead dog back to you to receive a replacement. the vet's official report of the dog's condition should be sufficient. side note: but the breeder should require that the buyer work with the breeder on what should be the next step for the pet. Buyer should provide proof that the appropriate actions as discussed with the breeder have been followed. The breeder should follow up accordingly.

i would expect the breeder to spell out what's considered a condition that developed through "nurture" vs. "nature".

Very good question! Kathy I'm with you I do not guarantee floppy ears or even retained tesicles on a pet male. For goodness sake these conditions are NOT life threatening and these conditions are what makes a pet a pet and not a show dog or a breeding dog. Doesn't at all mean they don't deserve a loving forever home.

as to what conditions are grounds for a refund or new puppy. Leggs perthe disease, livershunt, PPA (eye disease) PDA (a heart disease) are among the most notable in Yorkshire Terriers. A breeders contract should (IMO) be written for the benefit of the buyer and not the breeder. If one reads the contract of most breeders carefully. You will find the puppy MUST die or if it's a life threatening condition the puppy MUST be given back to the breeder. Now doesn't it stand to reason that a puppy owner is not going to give a puppy back after bonding? Sure it does and most breeders know this. It is a pretty save bet that the breeder with contracts of this nature will never see the pup again. For goodness sakes if you as consumers do not start holding breeders responsible for the "product" they produce then nothing will ever change in regards to breeding dogs. Nothing! If the breeder refuses to give you a 100% genetic guarantee whether the animal lives or dies then you should walk away. No matter how much you want the pup walk away. And the guarantee should also guarantee against life threatening (but not fatal) genetic diseases. Do not be in a hurry to buy the first puppy you see. Most of todays problems are based on the "buy it now" mentality or "I want it now" mentality with little or no thought given to what happens after the sale or what has happened to that puppy in his short life BEFORE the sale. Find a breeder you like and trust then get on his/her waiting list. You will be so happy when that healthy specimen arrives and you can take your bundle of joy home. The internet is a wonderful tool to use when looking for a puppy. But I think nothing takes the place of face to face meetings. Please do not just go to the airport for your bundle of joy sight unseen. The breeder has your money and you are in no way assured of the health of the puppy.

So 1) check for genetic diseases in the contract. Some are common and some not so common, but a vet must provide proof of such disease. 2) check the length of guarantee. Something longer that a normal 3 day well-ness checkup. You need a guarantee of at least one year for genetic disease to become apparent. some breeders offer 2, 3, or 5 years. Some breeders even offer a lifetime guarantee for genetic disease. 3) Determine what if anything the breeder is required to do when notified the puppy is ill!

I agree with wnalegria. I do not cover patellas in my contract either. Only the 3 or 4 grade is considered even close to genetic in nature. A puppy with this severe of a condition would never leave me at 12 weeks. I guarantee SOUND knees at 12 weeks or at the time puppy leaves me. But not after. It can be an envirnomental issue. There is no way for a breeder to guarantee the enviroment of the puppy after he leaves. So NO Patella guarantee from me. I have even had VETS push the patella out when examining and then claim it was a genetic condition!
Earmites mange etc. Geeze at what point does the buyer take any responsibility. Some of these conditions can be determined by a novice buyer by inspecting the puppy and his surrounding before purchase! there is really no excuse for any buyer to accept a puppy with these conditions.