Tail docking

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

No, that's not the way evolution works, breeders would have to choose those dogs with a thicker tail and breed them. In the wild, it could happen, because those with a thick tail would have an advantage. A dog with a broken tail, couldn't get food for a while. Joey and Ralphie are approximately the same size, Joey being a few ounces bigger, but Ralphie has much bigger bones and teeth. My guess is that Ralphies teeth are twice the size of Joeys, and his docked tail is much thicker than Joey's docked tail. Breeders would be wise to start taking the tail into consideration when choosing traits to breed, that's why I hope this evolves slowly and breeders are given a choice. I am concerned about the reports of broken tails in some countries, and I hear that it's extremely painful, and often full amputation of the tail has to be done. So for me, this is a little like “A stitch in time, saves nine.” Visually, I think they are adorable each way.

Sorry by that decision criteria, and I speak as a breeder, the evolution of a thicker tail is going to take a long time.

I speak for the breed I do breed. While I do evaluate for tail set, the last thing I will evaluate is for tail length and width. Sorry but there are too many more important structural and health issues with my breed, to take out of the breeding gene pool a dog that has only one fault of tail width.

[ironmike86]

I believe in choice also. But IMO if it's done when they are young and don't have many nerve endings I don't see it to be bad. I seen my pup dock when it got back home it was like it didn't even have a tail. JMO

[concretegurl]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

What breed is Princess?

Miniature Schnauzer she is AKC however she originated from German lines like 16 generations ago...I don't know that that worked but a German import was added to her line and and bred back but she is not "line bred". She is a true blond a white mini schnauzer mix of both platnium white and grey or silver white she is from champion liniage but she had diformities-double nipples and heart shaped paws her breeder breeds a large kennel few for show many for pets, she was from their show line but because of her diformities I was able to get her as a pet same as their working line dogs thwy breed.

[concretegurl]

Originally Posted by Lorraine

Actually the result of banning docking tails in some countries has dramatically increased injuries to those undocked tails. I know some breeders in Germany that are disgusted with the ban.
The Yorkie tail left natural is very long and thin and therefore certainly has the increased potential to injury even wagging a tail in a crate.
Then there is the yorkie that doesn't want to carry its tail up at all, it will be dragging that full tail along behind it like a kid pulling a sleigh.

I agree completely and it is for this reason only I support tail docking not just for the look, I think the lobg tail is beautiful.

[Wylie's Mom]

These tail docking threads always disturb me when I read "well, they could be injured - so we cut them off" type stuff. I mean, I'd venture to guess that LP is infinitely more common to yorkies than a tail injury...so, do we cut them off above the knee caps? I mean, ya know? Clearly, that's rhetorical, so forgive me...but really, I've never understood the logic in justifying cutting off a body part bc it *might* have a chance of being injured. That logic always rings so false to me. We could all injure any single thing on our bodies, some parts are more prone than others...but I can't see amputating the more vulnerable parts "just in case".

A dog is born with a tail as a body part. Call me crazy, but I think that means it's supposed to be there . My feeling is that body parts should remain body parts unless there is a darn good reason to amputate them. For me, a potential for injury doesn't warrant or justify an amputation.

I truly hope the standard changes at some point. I think if the show folks in the world took the reigns and charged forward with the issue - it'd be an incredibly admirable and meaningful thing to do for animals.

[navillusc]

I know what Brody's natural tail looks like because it is undocked, but not Mia's...but I see many other natural Yorkie tails and they are different than Brody's. With so many tails docked for so long, I cannot help but wonder if those who would modify the standard even know what a natural tail looks like...or should look like?

I definitely don't have the answer, but it doesn't seem to be only our pets for whom the rationale of the "there 'might' be injury/disease in years ahead so remove the possibly offending part now as a preventative measure" mindset exists. I doubt you'll even believe this, but about a year ago in a medical waiting room, there was a show playing and young women in their 20's and 30's were talking about how they were having mastectomies done to themselves so as to prevent possibly getting breast cancer in 20-40 years...and they were happy about it! Unable to 'un-hear' their enthusiasm, I was never so eager to leave a place in all my life I do not believe.

I think we have probably long been performing unnecessary procedures, taking unnecessary preventatives and innoculations...but I cannot think of a way to know 10 years or more beforehand what should be done 'now' to prevent a 'worse' future fate, nor can I think of a way to confirm if that preventative actually worked...or would in every case. It is basically like the 'elephant repellent' oxymoron.

I am simply for choice, reason, logic, and a heaping helping of the once 'common' sense...and that includes my pets.

[concretegurl]

A tail is not necessicarily needed.

To say they were born with long tails true, but like with ears...should we crop them when were born with them...were talking about completely human created and manipulated breeds.

If we could have bred them with short tails and perfect ears (not specific to yorkies but all breeds this is done to) well than I would prefer that.

But until then...what about dew claws manu say they are used for mounting in breeding and grooming a dogs own face yet rarely does anyone take issue with dew claw removal. They were born with those too.

Idk if we were talking naturally evolved dogs I see the natural point better.

Maybe I'm way off I used to against any medical altering of dogs...tails ears claws so I guess its totally probable I could change my mind again.

[luvlee]

I just don't accept that there's no pain with docking or cropping. I think that's a comforting thought for humans.

People used to believe that circumcision didn't hurt either. Recent studies have shown that new borns actually DO feel pain during that procedure -- even if they don't cry or cry very little.

Pain must also be felt by these animals - even if the newborn pup does not give the pain reaction that we expect to see.

I personally do not believe that the start to any living thing's life should be a reaction to PAIN.

BTW: I think the tail was originally docked during the Industrial Revolution when the Yorkie was used particulary by the looming industry to get the rats. Tail was caught in spinning machinery and was pulled off. Yorkies are no longer used for that purpose.

Also, I find it difficult to believe that Yorkies with tails suffer greater injury for having their tails. Many small breeds and other small animals survive without injury with their tails. Most likely, same is true for the yorkie.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Boy, if I could possibly prevent LP when the pup is 3 days old by some negligible procedure that wouldn't cripple or harm the dog but could possible prevent the development of that occasionally awful condition, I would.

My neighbor's dog was almost lame from it before she finally had it surgically repaired and the little thing went through h - e - double-hockey sticks getting over that surgery and rehabbing. That dog suffered a lot before a diagnosis was finally sought. If I could prevent that possibility through some simple procedure when the dog is newborn, of course I would.

A procedure like tail docking or dew claw removal on a 3 day old pup is a far cry from a full-length leg amputation and not even in the same ballpark metaphorically. One takes seconds and requires no anesthesia, surgery, rehab and the other is as major surgery as one can get without cutting into the torso or skull. But a negligible procedure like tail docking or dew claw removal on an infant pup who has no peripheral neurological maturation to possibly prevent injury and weeks or months of pain and surgery and weeks of rehab - yes, I would. And I think the dog would thank me for it if he could to try to avoid all that he went through before surgery and before his diagnosis, waiting for surgery while on medication, then the procedure itself, immediate miserable p/o course, and then later trying to get over it, return to functionality.

I think preventative medicine is preferable where a small procedure can potentially save a big problem later. And I am certainly not alone and haven't been over the years - many compassionate people felt and feel that way. Think of the dogs that injure body parts and don't have YT-type owners who go for weeks or months without notice and in pain, suffering silently until and if somebody notices and maybe, maybe gets noticed and some help. If I could prevent that from a simple procedure, nicking a ligament or some such thing while the dogs was hours old, I would.

In the old days when a dog broke its tail, the owner usually just whacked it off and tied a rag around it! The dog got well - or not. Dogs often went - and no doubt today in this country - still do, with torn-off dewclaws and dealt with them on their own. Eventually someone realized that something could be done to easily prevent those kinds of things and did it. I only wish there were some other similar simple things to do to help dogs avoid injury, pain and worse. But a lot of us over the years have and will continue to get what we can done minimally early to prevent our dogs' very possible suffering.

[Carmeow]

I wish all the time that Luma had her tail. It makes me sad thinking when she was a baby, her breeder just snipped it off. Obviously it is part of the standard but it irks me to no end to think some human made the conscious thought that hey, I've decided all yorkies will have their tails docked. And now it is an accepted thing. And why? Unless your dog is a working dog, what are the reasons for a modern day pet yorkie to have a docked tail, if the dog is not being shown?

My boyfriend says its like circumcision. Yeah, it happens without the baby's consent. But they don't remember it happening, so why is it a big deal? Because what if they wished they had had the choice? not their parents choice? I know dogs have a less complex thought process than humans but...eh. they were born with a tail. In my opinion they should have their tails left intact.

Eta: not to mention, she's rout months old and it still looks absolutely gross beneath her hair. The skin is all mottled and scabby on the end. And I catch her chewing at it sometimes.

Whatever the case, I strongly regret not voicing my opinion of this to Lumas breeder. I was afraid to say anything because breeders have their way of doing things. But I now feel if its the owners choice to keep the tail, the breeder should consent, if its made clear in advance of the pups birth.

I am looking to add a biewer to our family and one thing I love is that biewer standard calls for an intact tail I love Luma all the same, but I can't get the image of her little tail sitting in the palm of her breeders hands. Ick.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by luvlee

I just don't accept that there's no pain with docking or cropping. I think that's a comforting thought for humans.

People used to believe that circumcision didn't hurt either. Recent studies have shown that new borns actually DO feel pain during that procedure -- even if they don't cry or cry very little.

Pain must also be felt by these animals - even if the newborn pup does not give the pain reaction that we expect to see.

I personally do not believe that the start to any living thing's life should be a reaction to PAIN.

BTW: I think the tail was originally docked during the Industrial Revolution when the Yorkie was used particulary by the looming industry to get the rats. Tail was caught in spinning machinery and was pulled off. Yorkies are no longer used for that purpose.

Also, I find it difficult to believe that Yorkies with tails suffer greater injury for having their tails. Many small breeds and other small animals survive without injury with their tails. Most likely, same is true for the yorkie.

Love this. I feel the same way. Until one of us is an actual yorkie pup who gets its tail amputated, claw pulled out or whatnot and comes back to tell us that an amputation is painless....I won't be making any assumptions that there is no pain. Or, more specifically, I'd rather err on the side that pain *is* possible, rather than err on the side of assuming there is no pain.

Btw, you mentioned circumcision. In nursing school during my Peds round, I witnessed probably about 7 circumcisions - I saw prob about 3 different methods used by different docs. And in all 7 of those - the baby screamed/cried...not a "I'm hungry" cry - it was an agonizing cry to witness, and I've never forgotten any of those babies. It certainly didn't appear painless to me. I'm not saying I'm against circumcision, but it's another one of those things that people are told "it's not painful".

If it's benign and painless and blah, maybe a breeder could share a video of a litter being docked to put people's minds at ease.

I wonder too if there is actual data that says tail injuries are increased in countries where it's banned...I mean, is there really actual data on tail injury incidence and prevalence?

[concretegurl]

https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/FA...l-docking.aspx


This is not statustical but informative.

Just for the sake of saying so I do not beleive in circumcision of males or females.
we evolved, its not part of our religion I teach my sons to clean themselves and medical evidence shows circumcision is dangerous (read the stats on hiw often it results in injury and even medically necessicary sex change operations...trust me far more common than you'd think.

I cannot train my dogs to be more careful.

However I have no disillusion dew claw removal ear cropping tail docking is painless.

Personally I feel ONLY a licensed vet should be allowed to perform these procedures.

[luvlee]

I appreciate that most yorkie owners have no control over the docking & cropping. I only hope that in the future there's more enlightened thinking on this issue. We can't hide behind perceived safety/preventative measures. They just aren't there.

We treat our pups like babies and for the most part, a yorkie owner is very consciencious about the smaller size and the breed's over all needs. I can't believe that there will be a sudden surge of injury if the yorkie keeps the parts that God gave it.

Lucy has her tail and dew claws. I groom her daily and she's been to the groomer once. I explained to the groomer at the outset that she has her dew claws. There has been no mishap.

And about the pain: Everybody told me I'd forget about the pain of child birth after my son showed up quickly and there was no time for anesthesia. Well, fourteen years later, I remember.... Oooh it still smarts!

We don't know enough about our own brains, let alone the brain of the Yorkshire Terrier to determine it's actual recall or memory. I DO know that Yorkies have keen senses and can pick up on things in their surroundings that humans wouldn't notice. Do they forget pain? I don't know -- maybe they're like elephants.

[ironmike86]

I agree there is pain. I'm not saying docking is good either. But fwiw I've been around amputee accidents at work. Minor but it happens all the time in my profession. I was there this guy said it didn't hurt till he saw his fingers in the bucket. Don't look at the pics they are bloody. But it hurt so bad he didn't feel it he said just a little pressure. Whatever that means happened while connecting a beam like in the pic. So I believe some ppl think docking a tail is similar to loosing fingers?? Dunno But I've been told there's hardly any nerves in the tail that young and there no blood?? Dunno myself other than what I've heard??

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f9...ccident018.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f9...ccident008.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f9...ccident002.jpg

[concretegurl]

Tail docking - the case for tail docking

Here's one thay refers to the Swetish study vaguely where tail injury rates resulting in amputation went from 38% to 51% after docking was banned.


http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=...I1EmOj-l-dVfzg