Household problems - my girls are fighting
 

My girls have recently started to take a dislike to each other. June is a spayed three year old Yorkie and Joni is an one year old Biewer. Joni isn't spayed because she's breeding quality and it's not an option. A couple of months ago, they started fighting with each other and it has become progressively worse. At first I thought June started the fights when she thought the younger, but bigger Joni was stepping out of bounds, but it wasn't long before I saw Joni fly at June.

I don't really know what to do anymore and I don't think I handled it very well to begin with. I tried to walk away in the beginning because that's what a dog behaviourist recommended. It didn't help much and they just kept fighting, more and more frequently. It usually starts when I give them attention, but I can't keep track of who starts the fights. It started out as infrequent brawls, but now they get all tense around each other. Joni is starting to lose confidence although she wins the fights, and June is becoming more and more demanding.

I don't really know what to do anymore. I've read that this is a problem that can't usually be resolved because bitches tend to hold a grudge against the other. Males fight for breeding rights, but bitches fight for breathing rights. :( I can't bear the thought of rehoming either of them, but something's got to give. They aren't drawing blood... yet. Any ideas?

I wish I knew the solution. I've got the same thing going on at my house but it's only when me and my husband are home together. One of them starts staring at the other and as I call it rattlesnakin her tail and it gets the other one started. The real bad thing is when the smallest one latches on to the other it's so hard to get her to let go. All of my girls are spayed.

My small Yorkie girl also does the rattlesnake-thing! Someone on another forum suggested establishing and enforcing one of them as the alpha, but even if I were to risk that, I wouldn't know who is supposed to be on top.

Well I have a mix here... two intact girls , a spayed girl and an old neutered male. We have the occassional bout, but from the beginning I've always gotten right in the middle of things and stopped it. Some days are worse than others, due to personality flares and attention seeking. Now if I holler at them (like I really mean it) they will stop before I can even get to them. Only a few times have I had to separate them. I hold off the attacker till she/he calms down or they get right back at it. When that happens, I jump in and separate them again and hold the attacker for a longer period of time, or try to get him/her refocused on something else.

My attitude is that I am the boss, I will decide who fights and when (which is never, bc I pay the vet bills), and I will protect from harm any and all of them equally. That's the main rule in my house, and they know I won't put up with any nonsense.

When I first got a second Yorkie, well before that, I had an aging GSD, an aging Maltese, and a youngish Yorkie. They all knew what to do and when to do it. And they were all well behaved, for the most part. When the two oldest passed, and I added 3 youngsters, wow, did my life change! This was so much harder! I used to be friends and kind to my dogs... these new ones were making me crazy. Playing, fighting over toys, attention, fighting just getting harnesses on to go for a walk! (bc wearing them out helps and makes them feel more pack-like when they return home).

I had to kick it in to Packmaster gear real quick. For a few months it was tough, I had to have my eyes and ears on alert 24/7. After a few months they settled down, and I was once again able to relax a little. Now just an occassional 'Ah, Ah!' does the trick and peace is restored. It was well worth doing... teaching them what I expected and what I would not allow. Now it's more fun than work...

Also there are some things we don't do. Sometimes petting one or two can set them off. I try to avoid those situations... I may pick one up to pet, then put her down and grab the other one to pet. Setting one back down at anytime can set them off. I look for signals and try to discourage nastiness.

And when they act right, I try to remember to always say 'Good Dog!' and 'What a Good girl!' (adding the 'What a' has a better effect) so they learn what is good to do.

Okay the worstest case scenario is that one has to be rehomed. I don't believe you are at that yet, as no blood has been drawn.

Next: Permanent segregation. Through the use of gates, or keep one upstairs and one downstairs. And if your house doesn't allow for either it is crate and rotate.

My concern is if you are going to breed that Biewer with another bitch in the house....yowsers! Especially because of the enmity at this point in time.

For now you must establish absolute dominance over both girls. I know this may sound harsh, but they have been allowed to get away with bad behaviour to one another for several months. It is always best to nip this in the bud, once it begins.

Alright right now, this moment in time. Crate one. Then take the other outside for a walk; or if it is too hot out, inside for some obedience training. With treats for good behaviour. Work 5 -10 minutes with her

Then crate that one you just finished training. Out comes the other female for same training same amount of time.

Repeat daily at least two times per day.

Then after four days. both girls on harnesses and leads. Out you go for a walk with them together. Immediately discipline for bad behaviour, ideally interfer prior to this. Watch the body language clues, staring, rigid tail, or sometimes snakely tail, ears back, lips curled, brow furrowed, all these are precoursors to "bad behaviour". First redirect the behaviour. Most effective immediately give an obedience command to that girl. Reward for obedience. If you miss the clue, and an attack ensues, firmly and quickly correct the aggressor. And then immediately walk back home and place the miscreant in house; then continue a walk with the other girl.

Feed them together but stay present and very alert. IF one finishes food first and tries to meander over to the other bowl, interfer with that.

While many here do NOT use crates for discipline I do. If there is an aggressor, or IF you don't know who is the aggressor, both girls go in their separate crates for at least 5minutes. Bad behaviour continues 10 minutes.

Some other ways to establish dominance - and I do this intermittently still. I make my dogs wait at bottom or top of stairs while I descend or ascend first. I reward with good boy or girl after I issue release command.

You always go out the door first, and come in first, they must wait for your command to go through the door.

You eat first, and then you feed the pups.

There is no "free" lap time. No dogs are allowed up on your lap or the couch unless you invite them up.

No sleeping in bed with you for now.

If you invite one girl up on your lap, and the other snarls or growls, crate time for her.

Try not to get frustrated or angry; but have a firm no nonsense tone, and just do what needs to be done.

Teach each gal the STOP command. This is an emergency command, and is never ever to be disobeyed. When learning this command in the beginning days give gently firm corrections if they don't stop immediately. Then progress once you see that they have understood STOP means no movement; if they disobey make the correction harsher; through voice intonation, and leash correction.

Once they get STOP, and they get it well, STOP should stop any untoward behaviour.

Best of luck with your gals.

needed to add:
 

Peek A Boo no longer sleeps on our bed. He got better at not attacking the others but never stopped completely, so he was banished to sleeping in his bed on the floor in our bedroom. (Sometimes we do take naps together though... just me and him). I hated having to do this, but he gave me no choice. He is the smallest, but usually always ended up being the one that got hurt.

Whatever we decided to do though took a lot of thought and trial and error, and our decisions are just what works the best for us and our dogs. Whenever we made any changes, I always watched for signs of depression, or even increased aggression, then made more changes until we hit on something that worked..

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: Excellent advice. I forgot to mention most of what Gemy hit on. They seem like such small things, ie: eating first, being first to go out through a door, etc., but those are important things to a dog and help immensely with them seeing YOU as their leader....

Kathy your last sentence is so very important. Evaluate how well what you are doin; is it working? Did the behaviour change, how so? Each dog, and each relationship is different and can change over time.

Thank you so much for the suggestions! I'm already doing some of those things (like eating together while supervised, never entering a door before I do, etc.), but I do feed them before I eat for practical reasons. I'll stop that though.
Regarding lap time, OMW, June has this way of sneaking into my lap so that I don't even notice she's there until she's happily settled in for a while. She's only 4lbs and I'll really have to pay more attention to get her to stop doing this. She's a lap hog.

I'll start doing the walking/crating thing tonight. Do I need to separate them completely during the day too? I can divide my yard in half if need be.

As gemy mentioned another BIG issue here is that if you are going to breed your unspayed female you are in for tons of trouble if you do not get this problem resolved. I don't know who told you to just walk away from fighting dogs but I would from here out walk away from their advice.

I hope the advice you have been given by others will help because this is not something that will resolve it's self.

Thanks, I'm very aware of the magnitude of this problem and I am doing everything I can do get it resolved. I am planning to breed my unspayed female and things need to get a lot better before then.

I am no longer listening to that behaviourist and I'm no longer walking away. Weirdly, after I got home after work today, the girls have been playing with each other with no tension between them at all. No signs of aggression yet today.

I'm sure that both of your pups are just wonderful, especially individually, but you should think about spaying your Biewer, the aggressiveness isn't a trait I'd look for when purchasing a pup.

Talk to some of the breeders on here, they can help you make that decision.

Also talk to the breeders that you got both girls from and see if either has dealt with issues like that in their lines before. They will want to know if they are responsible so they can re-think their lines.

By breeding her and bringing puppies into this situation you are potentially putting a lot of dogs at risk.

I really hope you can find a solution to this, maybe a vet visit to make sure neither pup is in pain or discuss anxiety medication with the vet?

She is not aggressive, I thought I made that clear. She is retaliating from a spayed, aggressive Yorkie bitch. She does not start the fights, otherwise I would never EVER breed her. I have spoken to her breeder and no, it's not an issue in her line.

The Yorkie bitch's breeder isn't someone I'm proud to be associated with and if I could go back, I would never get a puppy from her. I was stupid and ignorant, but I've learned a lot and fast, thanks to great doggie friends I met on this forum. Sadly, June is the problem and she is the one who starts the fights. She is also the one who is spayed.

I'm sorry but this is where I read that the Joni, the Biewer was starting fights as well as the yorkshire terrier June.

Maybe I read it wrong, sorry, best of luck to your pups and future liters.

Thanks for pointing that out. I was still a bit confused about it until this morning, when June stopped Joni from moving into a doorway. This is not the first time that June has prevented Joni from going somewhere. And if Joni moves, she attacks. I have no doubts about who is bullying who anymore.

Joni just defends herself, she cowers and shies away from June, but she will defend herself because she is much bigger than June.

You asked about crating during the day, and my answer is yes. Crate/rotate. Until the situation is resolved. They need to "earn" their freedom together.

Plus you can't in all practicality be ontop of them 24/7. And you really do need to be ontop of things if they are both out in the room at the same time.

Best of luck, and let us know how it is going.

NILIF - Nothing in Life is Free Program For Dogs

Gemy and kjc gave the same advice I would give. Check out the link above

Just a quick update:

I've started crating/rotating them permanently to stop any further fights. I've set up an expen in a half shady/half sunny spot outside for a roomy space for one to chill while the other is out. My aim is to prevent any and all further fights until we have sorted out the issue. We're starting a vigorous routine of walking and training tonight to further help the girls get along and by the start of next week I'll start walking them together.

I read this in an article about dominance related aggression:

"The owner must determine which dog is most likely to achieve and maintain a dominant status and reinforce his higher ranking position by ensuring that he is the first to receive access to all resources. The second ranking dog should be obliged to follow. This decision is based on the age, tenure, health, and temperament of the two dogs. In general, the elder, incumbent dog is the one to support ("senior support program") and this approach is usually the best one when setting out to correct such problems. "

What are your thoughts?

I don't think the situation is as cut and dried as the article assumes. If the dog that was there first does not want to give up it's position as the "top dog" I don't think it is fair to allow the new on to take it's place in the ranking order. But if the new dog is very dominate you could continue to have problems off and on with toys, territory, etc. I'm no expert. You have a job on your hands for sure.

Thanks. The article goes on to say that in most cases you support the senior dog. I think that's what I'm going to do although June is smaller. She is older and obviously not keen to give up her position. I've got to work with her to reinforce her dominance by putting Joni away when there's a fight, and giving June food and other valuables first. They're going to keep fighting until they've established who's the boss of whom.

By the end of the week I'll be walking them together and slowly reintroducing them to each other. I'll post the link to the article later (it's on my browser at work), but it gives detailed directions for reintroducing them safely after confinement. I must say, I can't take more than a week of this... It's terrible having to crate one of them all the time.

There's many methods to helping them to get along, I think consistency on your part will do wonders. Yes, pretty intensive work in the beginning, but when you can start trusting them again it will be so worth it.

Be careful
 

there is tread on here about a female killing the other female's puppies. I used to breed and i always crated my females when they were in heat or had nursing puppies just to keep them safe. when they have puppies they usually are more aggressive toward other dogs even if they got along before
having the puppies. invest in a large crate with a grate in the bottom that allows for waste to drop into a plastic pan in the bottom of the cage it keeps the puppies and mom clean, good luck with the training, obedience training works wonders and you've gotten great advise from everyone.

We had a breakthrough this morning! I've been crating and rotating since the weekend and I've been walking with them separately every day. So, this morning I put June outside to potty while Joni was inside. We have a new doggie door that only Orio uses at the moment and June hasn't figured out how to use it yet. Well, she figured it out this morning and entered the house before I knew anything... Joni was standing by the door and I thought she would attack her, but she greeted her with a wagging tail!

I couldn't believe it - they greeted each other in a very friendly way and then played for a while. No growls, no stares, no tension, nothing. Tonight, we're walking together to cement their newfound friendship and hopefully our troubles are over!

I can't explain the relief and utter joy that I felt when they greeted each other like friends who haven't seen each other in years. I thought I was going to have to rehome one of them... I'm so happy at the moment that I could cry!

That's wonderful news! I hope it continues! :D

Thanks. Unfortunately it didn't. I thought things were much better until June accidentally bit me when my hand was between her and Joni last night. She drew blood and it hurt like hell - she only let go after I yelled and she realised it was my hand. I shudder to think that she tries to bite Joni like that. I've never seen nicks or cuts on Joni, so I think June just bites her coat most of the time, but still. I feel like it's a matter of time until she draws Joni's blood.

I think I'm going to have to find June a new home, even if it's only temporary until things calm down. I've invested so much in her and I love her dearly, but I'm starting to believe that she needs a home where she is a pampered lap dog. This is the hardest decision I've ever had to make for my home and my dogs and I wouldn't rehome her if I didn't firmly believe that it's the best thing for her. I'd never rehome her unless I'm absolutely sure that she'll be pampered and taken great care of for the rest of her life.

Any advice or words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated. :confused::(

Have you tried kenneling them separately but side by side.

Allowing them to pose posture growl but no physical contact.


Its also a last resort but soft muzzles and being supervised closely forcing them to get the ranking over with...without ability to bite-contraversial &the last resort

I really feel this is unfortunately age appropriate pack order establishment.

It sucks, but it's almost natural.

Safety first, I'm sorry you and they are foing through this and hope another option is avalible.

Thanks a lot for the advice. I've tried kenneling them separately, but side-by-side and I kept them apart for weeks, rotating them every couple of hours. I also walked them together daily and I spent time with each one separately. They were better for a while, but they still squabble almost daily. As soon as June sees Joni, her tail goes into rattlesnake position, her back goes stiff and she stares at Joni until she lunges at her to attack, even while Joni is crated.

It's now gotten to the point where Joni cowers in corners and is afraid to exit her crate for fear of attack. It's not fair to her to live under constant attack.

Plus, Joni might be pregnant. She's my breeding girl* and she's due around 21 January if she took the breeding. I'm incredibly scared that June will hurt Joni and the puppies.

*Breeding disclaimer: :thumbup: I have done my research, I have a great mentor and my dogs are health tested and show quality. I'm not a willy-nilly breeder. :)

I had an issue with a couple of Shih Tzu's several years back. When my male Shih Tzu was about 6 years old we were given a beautiful female Shih Tzu puppy. She was a sweet little dog and loved people but she was an alpha for sure. She would dominate my male to the point where he became depressed and could not even eat without her permission. She would eat her food and his if I did not feed them in different rooms. When I would come home and they came to meet me the female would bite at him and block him from getting to me. I tried all kinds of training techniques but the fact was she was an aggressive female even though she was spayed.

After a year of dealing with the problem and seeing that my male was really suffering emotionally I gave her to my mom. She was an only dog at my mom's house and just loved it. She lived a wonderful pampered life there and I never regretted having her there. My male became the happy little guy he was before she came.

There are some dominance issues you can control with crating or other techniques but if it is a real personality issue you are going to find yourself having to continually keep them away from each other. I did not want to live with that kind of stress on me or the dogs. I am not a breeder and I suppose breeders have to deal with these types of issues in order to continue their program. I just could not have that kind of stress in my home on a continual basis. Separately they were both wonderful dogs. They just could not live together in peace. They are animals and there are things going on that sometimes humans do not understand.

Thanks for the advice. I've decided to rehome June and I posted some ads online today. After hours of correspondence with various interested parties, my mom phones, asks why I'm upset and says they'll take her. They already have four Yorkies, but like her fiance said "What's one more?" :) This way I don't have to say goodbye and I'll be able to see her whenever I go to visit. She's going home with them after their wedding next weekend. I couldn't be happier with how things have turned out.