This Question Has Been Nagging at Me.

[gracielove]

Originally Posted by gemy

I like to keep an open mind about a lot of things, and in particular my passions. I've read this thread with a whole lot of interest, mainly by posters who don't breed. And that is fine and good. I like to hear what other's think about things. The why's and the where for's of what they believe to be right.

For me and my personal abilities, the maximum of large dogs, I would be prepared to "fully" care for would be three. And of course one Yorkie!. Even with three, it would mean for me full retirement, as right now I work basically part- time. It is not they are either retired or current show dogs. It is I like to keep my dogs in as close to show condition as possible. My breeds require a whole lot of grooming. Then there is the exercise, and training. To keep my breeds in top condition requires daily exercising of at least one hour, coupled with a few times a day treat/skill training. I do one on one exercise and training, so that is four hours per day + grooming. Crate and rotate is very necessary with breeding females, so for about 6wks once, sometimes twice a year; it can get a little busy.

I also believe it or not have to crate, when I have one in the grooming room. Sigh, my fault, as they all know that grooming=treats; and even though They are Not the ones on the table; they want to stick around for a potential treat :-)

If I were to have more than four dogs, I would need a "helper" on a daily basis. Means that I would have to pay that helper. Then of course the additional vet and training bills, not to mention food, which is a Huge Expense in large breeds. I spend over $300 a month to feed our big ones. I've never looked at breeding as a way to "make" money, but as a sincere desire, to breed fine, beautiful, working great temperament, healthy dogs. Hopefully to improve the breed somewhat. If I got in over my head financially, then maybe a pressure would be on to actually "make money". Gawd I hope one day break even.


Interesting to look at, how many dogs could be safely housed in a home environment. Of course some of it will have to do with square footage. I have a breeder friend who has a very large home in the country. All her dogs, eight of them, live in the house. She has one floor she houses the females and one stud dog in, one floor for the immature males, and one floor that her Mom and the other stud dog live on. One stud dog goes to the floor with the immature males, when the females are in heat. That is the other thing that happens, kind of like woman who live together, they all tend to cycle in at the same time. Now she has help with her adult children et al.

Each breeder will have different abilities and skills, and of course some can care for more dogs than say I could.

It is what is so difficult with legislating on the breeder end of things. So many variables, with all the different breeds, and breeders.

But I do muse what would happen if one day, all puppy mills were put out of business, no dog sales allowed in pet stores, and no USDA licensed breeders. Would this truly curb a pet over population problem? It would seem like it would have to. But then where do folks go to find a puppy? The small Backyard Breeder who flies under the radar? Those pet owners who insist on breeding their pet once or twice? Cause let me tell you show breeders in no way would be able to keep up or even want to keep up with the demand for pups!.

Just musing on a stinkey hot July 4th.

I think right now what is happening with the over breeding of small dogs is quite a "fad" type of thing. It's a rage that just does not seem to want to burn out. Maybe so many people living in apartments has something to do with it. I keep hearing programs on Animal Planet encouraging people to buy small dogs if they live in an apartment. My thinking is that because the small dog is so popular many people are getting them that would not under other circumstances have a dog. It's like an experiment for them. I think many of them should not ever own a dog by the looks of how many are passed off to new owners or shelters or even abandoned.
In my area we have had our shelters full of mixed breeds for years. Now there are almost as many purebred dogs. When I was younger (a few years ago) few people had purebred dogs. There seems to have been an explosion in the breeding of purebreds in the last few decades. We couldn't get enough good homes for the mixed breeds and now the purebred dogs are having the same issue. People feel entitled to do what ever they wish with their pets and it is a disaster. Few people see the number of dogs and cats that are put down daily in shelters. It has become the "solution" for indiscriminate breeding of both types of animals. As far as I am concerned many of the people who want purebreds should not own a dog "period."

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by gemy

I like to keep an open mind about a lot of things, and in particular my passions. I've read this thread with a whole lot of interest, mainly by posters who don't breed. And that is fine and good. I like to hear what other's think about things. The why's and the where for's of what they believe to be right.

For me and my personal abilities, the maximum of large dogs, I would be prepared to "fully" care for would be three. And of course one Yorkie!. Even with three, it would mean for me full retirement, as right now I work basically part- time. It is not they are either retired or current show dogs. It is I like to keep my dogs in as close to show condition as possible. My breeds require a whole lot of grooming. Then there is the exercise, and training. To keep my breeds in top condition requires daily exercising of at least one hour, coupled with a few times a day treat/skill training. I do one on one exercise and training, so that is four hours per day + grooming. Crate and rotate is very necessary with breeding females, so for about 6wks once, sometimes twice a year; it can get a little busy.

I also believe it or not have to crate, when I have one in the grooming room. Sigh, my fault, as they all know that grooming=treats; and even though They are Not the ones on the table; they want to stick around for a potential treat :-)

If I were to have more than four dogs, I would need a "helper" on a daily basis. Means that I would have to pay that helper. Then of course the additional vet and training bills, not to mention food, which is a Huge Expense in large breeds. I spend over $300 a month to feed our big ones. I've never looked at breeding as a way to "make" money, but as a sincere desire, to breed fine, beautiful, working great temperament, healthy dogs. Hopefully to improve the breed somewhat. If I got in over my head financially, then maybe a pressure would be on to actually "make money". Gawd I hope one day break even.


Interesting to look at, how many dogs could be safely housed in a home environment. Of course some of it will have to do with square footage. I have a breeder friend who has a very large home in the country. All her dogs, eight of them, live in the house. She has one floor she houses the females and one stud dog in, one floor for the immature males, and one floor that her Mom and the other stud dog live on. One stud dog goes to the floor with the immature males, when the females are in heat. That is the other thing that happens, kind of like woman who live together, they all tend to cycle in at the same time. Now she has help with her adult children et al.

Each breeder will have different abilities and skills, and of course some can care for more dogs than say I could.

It is what is so difficult with legislating on the breeder end of things. So many variables, with all the different breeds, and breeders.

But I do muse what would happen if one day, all puppy mills were put out of business, no dog sales allowed in pet stores, and no USDA licensed breeders. Would this truly curb a pet over population problem? It would seem like it would have to. But then where do folks go to find a puppy? The small Backyard Breeder who flies under the radar? Those pet owners who insist on breeding their pet once or twice? Cause let me tell you show breeders in no way would be able to keep up or even want to keep up with the demand for pups!.

Just musing on a stinkey hot July 4th.

I would think if it were not as easy to get dogs maybe they would stop falling into the wrong hands.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Maybe doglovers today could concentrate less on absolute perfection of breed & whether we can any of us can easily locate a great, healthy pet with relative ease & think more about the dogs themselves who are being used to breed the finiest, healthiest pups possible. On forums & websites, I see a lot of concern about the breed standard, health, pedigree & all of those things in a pup we might purchase but still not much discussion about what the actual lives of the breeding dogs are like. That pregnant female somewhere in the finest of reputable kennel facilities who had a wonderful stud of the finest lineage bred to her:

What is her daily life like? Has she ever been on a picnic with the family, taken to visit relatives or friends? Does she help open presents at Christmas? How much time does she get to walk & enjoy the neighborhood beside the person she loves most, go out for a car ride, play tugowar or fetch, take a trip to the pet shop for new toys with her mommie, drowse by the fire on a rainy evening with the family or cuddle up on the couch next to her beloved owner, stroked & told how much she is loved? Or are the breeding dogs' lives the easiest forgotten and put to the backs of our minds in our pursuit of our own wonderful pet?

[gemy]

Awh Jeanie you write very evocatively and eloquently. You brought tears to my eyes.

I know without a doubt my dogs are well loved members of my household. I know you know this, as I've posted many videos, pics, and posts about what my dogs do. Including Razzle a show Yorkie, perhaps the only one in full show coat that goes swimming and dock diving.

to breed fine and healthy dogs of wonderful disposition and structure, you do Need a wide enough pool of breeding dogs. This is just a function, a reality of genetics.

I can say for the most part in my breed, perhaps because it is rare, most/many breeders fit your description of life for their breeding dogs.
For Yorkies, I know of many that indeed fit your description, but there are many more I have no personal knowledge of.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by gemy

to breed fine and healthy dogs of wonderful disposition and structure, you do Need a wide enough pool of breeding dogs. This is just a function, a reality of genetics.

Oh, thank you, Gemy, for your kind words.

I guess like most here who have an inquiring nature, I am aware of the function, the reality of genetics it takes to breed fine and healthy dogs of wonderful disposition and structure and the wide gene pool required. Speaking at large and for discussion, I am positing whether that is too high an ethical price for true dog lovers to pay in just accepting as a sad fact that a certain amount of dogs used for breeding or even for show by highly respected breeders or VIP's in the dog world have to live largely kenneled or confined, even isolated lives lacking in so much that all dogs dearly love about life so that other dogs can live the life of the happy, healthy, much-adored pet.

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

Maybe doglovers today could concentrate less on absolute perfection of breed & whether we can any of us can easily locate a great, healthy pet with relative ease & think more about the dogs themselves who are being used to breed the finiest, healthiest pups possible. On forums & websites, I see a lot of concern about the breed standard, health, pedigree & all of those things in a pup we might purchase but still not much discussion about what the actual lives of the breeding dogs are like. That pregnant female somewhere in the finest of reputable kennel facilities who had a wonderful stud of the finest lineage bred to her:

What is her daily life like? Has she ever been on a picnic with the family, taken to visit relatives or friends? Does she help open presents at Christmas? How much time does she get to walk & enjoy the neighborhood beside the person she loves most, go out for a car ride, play tugowar or fetch, take a trip to the pet shop for new toys with her mommie, drowse by the fire on a rainy evening with the family or cuddle up on the couch next to her beloved owner, stroked & told how much she is loved? Or are the breeding dogs' lives the easiest forgotten and put to the backs of our minds in our pursuit of our own wonderful pet?

What I can tell you is myself and other show breeders I personally deal with have fabulous set ups and wonderful care and socialization for their dogs. Think about it, how well would a dog show if it was not socialized or cared for? NOT!! And they certainly carry on in good care for them once out of the show rings. usually bitches that have been in a breeding program are spayed, dentals taken care of and sold for often not a lot of money to a nice pet home. For it to be able to transition to a nice pet home it is best if it comes from a nice home.

[ironmike86]

Imo Now that I've been exposed to the show dog world. When I meet some good breeders. From may different breeds of dog. All the dogs are happy and well behaved. No crazy yappers ect. Well socialized. Support these type of breeders. But these type of breeders its hard to get a puppy. I've met ppl who have a waiting list and the Dams aren't even expecting yet. Maybe only breed once or twice a year with different dams.The backyard breeder is who you need to watch Some are okay try to breed to standard but don't show..But even show dog breeders not all pups will be show quality but should be healthy. The you have the puppy mills. One who doesn't strive to breed healthy pups. Jut pump them out for $$. Put them out of business and never buy from a pet store. If we don't support the good breeder we won't find good health puppies???? Dunno hard topic many opinions

[Lovetodream88]

I'm not sure that if I were to get another puppy that it would have to come from a show breeder but from a person who breeds for the slandered, has done health testing, knows there lines, all there dogs are akc, they have a decent health guarantee, I can see that the parents are not being raised in filth or outside, puppies are being raised in a house, multiple breeds are not being bred and no mixed breeds are being breed and I'm sure there is more just really tired right now. I think there is never ever any reason for puppy mills ever and we would be fine if they no longer existed. There is absolutely no reason for a dog to be born with health problems that could be prevented if the parents had testing done. I think breeders can be bad breeders even if they are show breeders there is so much you have to look at not just if they show there dogs.

[ironmike86]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

I'm not sure that if I were to get another puppy that it would have to come from a show breeder but from a person who breeds for the slandered, has done health testing, knows there lines, all there dogs are akc, they have a decent health guarantee, I can see that the parents are not being raised in filth or outside, puppies are being raised in a house, multiple breeds are not being bred and no mixed breeds are being breed and I'm sure there is more just really tired right now. I think there is never ever any reason for puppy mills ever and we would be fine if they no longer existed. There is absolutely no reason for a dog to be born with health problems that could be prevented if the parents had testing done. I think breeders can be bad breeders even if they are show breeders there is so much you have to look at not just if they show there dogs.

Your right. Just most breeders that I met that show. Health test the dog. Follow Akc rules....keeping the pup 12weeks..not selling known unhealthy pups or under weight yorkies. Theres also home breeder who do this. Main thing is know what your buying. You pay more for a healthy dog= test cost $$, good vet care ect.. Or buy from a questionable breeder and pay more on vet bills to help the pup. But it's easier to find a Show breeder. Just go to the dog show. After knowing what I do now. I wouldn't buy from the newspaper ect.. Good breeders don't advertize. they don't need the business. JME/JMO

[gracielove]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

I'm not sure that if I were to get another puppy that it would have to come from a show breeder but from a person who breeds for the slandered, has done health testing, knows there lines, all there dogs are akc, they have a decent health guarantee, I can see that the parents are not being raised in filth or outside, puppies are being raised in a house, multiple breeds are not being bred and no mixed breeds are being breed and I'm sure there is more just really tired right now. I think there is never ever any reason for puppy mills ever and we would be fine if they no longer existed. There is absolutely no reason for a dog to be born with health problems that could be prevented if the parents had testing done. I think breeders can be bad breeders even if they are show breeders there is so much you have to look at not just if they show there dogs.

From what I know of ethical show/breeders they do not sell their breeder quality dogs to people who are not going to show them or who do not have some sort of a contract to produce at least one pick puppy for them so it is unlikely that you are going to find some good quality Yorkies in the home of a "hobby" breeder. A good breeder does not let their good breeding stock get out in the pet breeder market. The best they can hope to obtain is a good quality pet and that is why many of them have ckc registrations or no registration at all.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by Lorraine

What I can tell you is myself and other show breeders I personally deal with have fabulous set ups and wonderful care and socialization for their dogs. Think about it, how well would a dog show if it was not socialized or cared for? NOT!! And they certainly carry on in good care for them once out of the show rings. usually bitches that have been in a breeding program are spayed, dentals taken care of and sold for often not a lot of money to a nice pet home. For it to be able to transition to a nice pet home it is best if it comes from a nice home.

Oh, that is good to know that you know many that do keep them in these types of fabulous set-ups & socialize them well. What types of set-ups are those? Do you mean their living quarters? What does the socialization consist of and how often? I am so interested to know from others' perspectives what they have seen of the breeding dams and even the stud dogs lives in other reputable breeders' facilities or homes?

[ironmike86]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

Oh, that is good to know that you know many that do keep them in these types of fabulous set-ups & socialize them well. What types of set-ups are those? Do you mean their living quarters? What does the socialization consist of and how often? I am so interested to know from others' perspectives what they have seen of the breeding dams and even the stud dogs lives in other reputable breeders' facilities or homes?

I'll tell you I have discovered. The breeders I met. have a room dedicated to the dog in the house.= Puppy pens with wee pads. With sinks and tables for grooming. These dedicated rooms are there rec rooms with furniture. Which the ppl use while watching tv ect. Just everything is set for easy clean up = potty accidents ect.. The have access to the whole house but there's baby gates so there time when they don't have access. They get to go outside supervised and run everyday. The are socialized very well because there's a pack. The Mommy...the breeder I'm going to doesn't keep males. But theres the Dam(s) and the other dogs various ages. They get handled often by strangers. When you pick up a pup the don't squirm. They are groom often. Bathed weekly. There alot of work. There a puppy cam I see how much she spends with the pup. IME there a big difference in the temperament of these dog vs backyard breeder with hardly any experience. They usually get meteor by another breeder who usually has 20+ yrs experience when they first start. The take advantage of the 4h youth program and mentor kids who come and help love,clean and groom these dog, they get alot of attention from many areas JME

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by ironmike86

I'll tell you I have discovered. The breeders I met. have a room dedicated to the dog in the house.= Puppy pens with wee pads. With sinks and tables for grooming. These dedicated rooms are there rec rooms with furniture. Which the ppl use while watching tv ect. Just everything is set for easy clean up = potty accidents ect.. The have access to the whole house but there's baby gates so there time when they don't have access. They get to go outside supervised and run everyday. The are socialized very well because there's a pack. The Mommy...the breeder I'm going to doesn't keep males. But theres the Dam(s) and the other dogs various ages. They get handled often by strangers. When you pick up a pup the don't squirm. They are groom often. Bathed weekly. There alot of work. There a puppy cam I see how much she spends with the pup. IME there a big difference in the temperament of these dog vs backyard breeder with hardly any experience. They usually get meteor by another breeder who usually has 20+ yrs experience when they first start. The take advantage of the 4h youth program and mentor kids who come and help love,clean and groom these dog, they get alot of attention from many areas JME

That is good to know about the big room for & temperament of the puppies of the breeders you have visited. I am also so interested in what the 24/7 life of the actual breeding dogs - especially the pregnant & prospectively pregnant females' - daily lives are like & how they spend their time in facilities or homes the large, well-respected breeders of note and whether or not the breeding females get to live the life of a loved house pet or they live another kind of life. It does sound like from what Lorraine said that some breeding bitches and/or show dogs - couldn't tell for sure which - don't always have forever homes once the breeder or show person is done with them and the little breeding females are sold. Have you also found that to be true?

[ironmike86]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

That is good to know about the big room for & temperament of the puppies of the breeders you have visited. I am also so interested in what the 24/7 life of the actual breeding dogs - especially the pregnant & prospectively pregnant females' - daily lives are like & how they spend their time in facilities or homes the large, well-respected breeders of note and whether or not the breeding females get to live the life of a loved house pet or they live another kind of life. It does sound like from what Lorraine said that some breeding bitches and/or show dogs - couldn't tell for sure which - don't always have forever homes once the breeder or show person is done with them and the little breeding females are sold. Have you also found that to be true?

Yup. for some.The females run around the house like the rest. But here's what I've learned. Start with pup. Show pup get your Championship...if your a bitch. you breed ~3-4 yrs...Have 1-2 maybe more litters if the pups are coming out good. ~6yrs if you can sell cheap to a good person who's looking for an older dog. They will get rid of the older Bitches ..to make room. But never unless the person is a good person who will love there dog.. From what they can tell about that person.they would keep the dog before just getting rid of them. But they like to show so they need to make room. If you have a Dog... you can always stud them and make $$ so they usually get to stay. But IME most keep the females unless the male is outstanding. JME which isn't very much..or alot of time into it.

[ironmike86]

And fwiw a Yorkie will adapt to a new home easy. they love everyone