Originally Posted by KazzyK810 (Post 3497409)

Some of these posts got me curious...

A havanese is a toy dog. How is this any different than those that breed yorkies with dachshunds, miniature poodles, miniature schnauzers, etc. When those breeding take place, is it usually the female that is the larger of the two breeds & the male the smaller?

Sorry, if it's a silly question. I admit to being ignorant in this. I've never bred an animal and have no intention of ever doing it. In fact, my pup has a vet appt for last puppy shots tomorrow and we will be discussing spaying :)

Originally Posted by RachelandSadie (Post 3497418)

think about trying to pass 5 ten lb babies through your birth canal...not happenin

btw this is a very exaggerated example***

Originally Posted by KazzyK810 (Post 3497409)

Some of these posts got me curious...

A havanese is a toy dog. How is this any different than those that breed yorkies with dachshunds, miniature poodles, miniature schnauzers, etc. When those breeding take place, is it usually the female that is the larger of the two breeds & the male the smaller?

Sorry, if it's a silly question. I admit to being ignorant in this. I've never bred an animal and have no intention of ever doing it. In fact, my pup has a vet appt for last puppy shots tomorrow and we will be discussing spaying :)

Originally Posted by scrapindee (Post 3497430)

Wow. There is 118 posts on this thread. The girl needs to be spayed. She shouldn't be allowed to carry this pregnancy to whelp--it will mostly kill her. The poster knows this. The post should not be about Loren any more. It is about Bee. Either she wants Bee to live--spay her. Or she wants to whine to YT, about the mistakes she made, and she will let this girl whelp puppies that will probably kill her. Plain and simple.

Originally Posted by scrapindee (Post 3497430)

Wow. There is 118 posts on this thread. The girl needs to be spayed. She shouldn't be allowed to carry this pregnancy to whelp--it will mostly kill her. The poster knows this. The post should not be about Loren any more. It is about Bee. Either she wants Bee to live--spay her. Or she wants to whine to YT, about the mistakes she made, and she will let this girl whelp puppies that will probably kill her. Plain and simple.

Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 3497450)

I'll go back to the title of this thread "I am the worst mom ever"......maybe not, but not a responsible owner. Bee is unspayed and in her 2nd heat, allowed out during that heat, unsupervised. Or maybe at this point bordering on animal abuse.

Originally Posted by RachelandSadie (Post 3497416)

If a bitch is bred to a stud of a different breed that is much larger there is no good way to tell how large the pups will be. If the pups growing inside the bitch are too large they will not be able to come down the birth canal and a C-section will be neccessary which is costly, dangerous, and hard to recover from for a wee one. Also if the stud throws very large pups there is a chance they could grow so large in her her uterus that it bursts and could kill the female and the puppies.

None of this should be dealt with at all, let alone with a young lady with NO breeding experience and a dog that is under a year old. :mad::thumbdown

Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 3497472)

Rachel,

I've witnessed a pefectly healthy female yorkie of good size and bred to a normal sized yorkie.....5 pups concieved.....she carried well, healthy throughout the gestation period. Contractions begin, pup 1 whelped, pup 2 whelped, pup 3 whelped....things start lagging but pup 4 whelped.....now momma get's tired, things aren't progressing in the specified time-frame. Off we go to emergency. C-section.....mom had no more stamina or elasticity left to push out the last pup.....This was with normal size pups....Can you imagine what is going to happen to Bee.....these pups are from a larger breed, more than likely (if Bee is healthy throughout her gestation) get large. Will she dilate to pass them, will she have the stamina to deliver them all, her vaginal opening can rip. Not to mention her uterus can rip while the pups are in the gestation period....yep! big infection......So, many things to consider.

Originally Posted by Woogie Man (Post 3497489)

I've had this happen with a 5 pound bitch, of good structure, delivering a 3 1/2 ounce pup. I shudder to think of the possibilities with Bee.

Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 3497450)

I'll go back to the title of this thread "I am the worst mom ever"......maybe not, but not a responsible owner. Bee is unspayed and in her 2nd heat, allowed out during that heat, unsupervised. Or maybe at this point bordering on animal abuse.

Originally Posted by tjwarder (Post 3498189)

:rolleyes: One would think. But there are many things people do (or fail to do) that should be common sense but are not simply because of ignorance ~ real, "I just never knew" ignorance, not doing something one knows to be stupid, foolish or risky. Seems as though that is the reason there initially was so much support and kindness in this thread - those with more experience seemed to recognize that OP honestly did not think the very young male would be a problem and did not condemn her mistake. As a newbie to YT, I have read hours and hours of past threads, and other than the one post that observed that OP was online but unresponsive, NONE of the comments were rude or anything less than supportive and helpful. Even that one observation was not rude, hateful or mean. A bit wry, not 'supportive' or kind, but not mean. Trust me, I've read hundreds, perhaps thousands of comments here the past few weeks, and there definitely have been some sharp, personal attacks toward posters who admit mistakes, question or disagree with the majority ~ just not this time. In one, I eventually used the "ignore" function for two over-the-top, albeit experienced and knowledgeable YTers (I've since 'un-ignored' so my pup can reap the benefit of their wisdom when they are not upset and outraged :p). While I did not see anything unkind prior to OP's 'I'm so upset' response, I guess her feelings are her own and she's entitled to feel as she does . . . but an FYI, OP: the "ignore" feature is easily applied to anyone you do not wish to hear from, whether it is one person or many. Might I suggest that you use it to save yourself from any further upset while continuing to read and consider (and perhaps reply) to those who have only offered their opinions and experience without condemning you. This is how it works: suppose you decide that I am mean or just trying to bait you - put me on "ignore" then post away and discuss what is happening with the rest of the board. Sure, I (or whoever you ignore) will see your post and may fire off yet another missive that you will find offensive . . . but those words will be blocked from your view and you do not have to choose to read and engage (or escalate) the drama. Don't stay away or only return to post your own angst and anger ~ stick around and ask your questions, and be respectful of those who have offered advice and support, even if you disagree or dislike the advice given. In your original post, you knew this unfortunate event was a problem. Those who have tried to help would like to know how this turns out, no matter what you decide, and their wisdom could very well help you and your pup through a very difficult and risky situation.

Sorry so long, but as another newbie with more ignorance than wisdom, I do have one very important admission and question to those with experience.



I truly did not know, or rather, just never had reason to think about that before. Yes, I did know that if a female is in heat, you should not allow her to be around male dogs and not allow her to be out roaming around where she could encounter other dogs. But I've never had a dog in heat before - each dog we've ever owned was either spayed/neutered beforehand or we promptly had it done ASAP. We planned to do that with our new rescue, Sugar Bear. Vet told us that she should have all vaccinations since we had no history on her and gave us the following time table: shots -> wait 3 weeks -> booster shot -> wait 2 weeks -> spay. She also had an ear infection and inflamed tonsils so he put her on meds and said to delay the booster until she finished them. That is where we are at now -- one round of shots, no booster yet and no spay . . . and I think she may be in heat. Don't really know, since I've never had one in heat, and don't know (despite my good friend, Google) how to determine the stage of heat if she is in it. Large (fenced) male dog next door seems especially whiny when she is outside and she had a 2-day bout of diarrhea and left one drop of blood near an accident indoors.

Assuming she is in heat, am I correct that we should NOT take her to board/train for the two weeks we will be traveling later this month? If we should not leave a female (possibly) in heat anywhere, then this would be a bad idea, right ~ possibly putting us in the sad position of the OP. Is there a way to specifically determine if she is at risk, or should we just look for Plan B or C just to be safe? I do not want to take risks with her, and am grateful that so many of you responded with information to this thread - you provided an education and may have prevented a similar (ignorant) mistake. Sugar Bear and I thank you all.

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly (Post 3497279)

I love those blinking little eyes in your Avatar. First time I saw that out of the corner of my eye I jumped, then laughed out loud. :):):)

Originally Posted by tjwarder (Post 3498303)

Thank you Bitsy. Is there a definitive way to know for sure if she is in heat and if so, how far along? I am working on a Plan C (getting someone to come to the house) but it doesn't look promising. Plan B would be to either (b)(1) Board her at the vet or (b)(2) Have her spayed and boarded at the vet while we are gone. Boarding without spaying could have almost as much risk as the training school. Probably fewer dogs and more control there, but no guarantee. It would be 'easy' (logistically) to have the spay done and all her recovery at the vets, but it makes my heart hurt to just leave her, not know if she's okay, and not be there to reassure her afterwards. I don't know if she needs that, perhaps that would work well, but none of the options 'feel' right. Even being gone doesn't feel right, but it is unavoidable and it was better that we accepted her when we did rather than leaving her in a bad situation. Even though we love our local vet, and he has always provided competent and compassionate care for our previous (much larger) pets, I would like her to be seen by a vet who specializes in small breeds. A Dallas vet has been recommended here, and if we spay/board then I would want to have it done at his facility. Any other things I should consider? Sorry for so many words, I know you are not my priest, manicurist or bartender :p . I'm just very glad I happened to read this thread and realized that taking her to the obedience school (unspayed) was a very bad idea.

Originally Posted by tjwarder (Post 3498303)

Thank you Bitsy. Is there a definitive way to know for sure if she is in heat and if so, how far along? I am working on a Plan C (getting someone to come to the house) but it doesn't look promising. Plan B would be to either (b)(1) Board her at the vet or (b)(2) Have her spayed and boarded at the vet while we are gone. Boarding without spaying could have almost as much risk as the training school. Probably fewer dogs and more control there, but no guarantee. It would be 'easy' (logistically) to have the spay done and all her recovery at the vets, but it makes my heart hurt to just leave her, not know if she's okay, and not be there to reassure her afterwards. I don't know if she needs that, perhaps that would work well, but none of the options 'feel' right. Even being gone doesn't feel right, but it is unavoidable and it was better that we accepted her when we did rather than leaving her in a bad situation. Even though we love our local vet, and he has always provided competent and compassionate care for our previous (much larger) pets, I would like her to be seen by a vet who specializes in small breeds. A Dallas vet has been recommended here, and if we spay/board then I would want to have it done at his facility. Any other things I should consider? Sorry for so many words, I know you are not my priest, manicurist or bartender :p . I'm just very glad I happened to read this thread and realized that taking her to the obedience school (unspayed) was a very bad idea.

Originally Posted by katy-yorkie (Post 3498336)

Not to get off the subject, I had to look twice! I thought old age had finally gotten me.

Originally Posted by Evie the evil (Post 3498407)

My two cents ...for what it is worth.

1) I believe that what took place between Lauren's little bee and the larger young male was not accidental. My theory it was intentional. It isn't like anyone .. even inexperienced isn't going to know when their bitch is in heat.

2) I believe the story about "accidental" was made up in an attempt to avoid chastisment for what the OP would know YT members would feel was careless and irresponsible.

3) OP then came to YT with her "story" hoping to hear.." well, whats done is done.. lets talk about your cute puppies. I believe the OP's thought process shows a level of immaturity on many levels. I don't believe she has been out in the real world for long..if this situation has her missing work. This is the selfish act of a child wanting their own way and when they don't hear and get what they wanted.. they throw a fit and tell you that you are being mean. I know that is what my children tell me when they don't get their way... but again... this is just my two cents.. and I am new to the site..so what do I know?

:cool:

Originally Posted by Evie the evil (Post 3498407)

My two cents ...for what it is worth.

1) I believe that what took place between Lauren's little bee and the larger young male was not accidental. My theory it was intentional. It isn't like anyone .. even inexperienced isn't going to know when their bitch is in heat.

2) I believe the story about "accidental" was made up in an attempt to avoid chastisment for what the OP would know YT members would feel was careless and irresponsible.

3) OP then came to YT with her "story" hoping to hear.." well, whats done is done.. lets talk about your cute puppies. I believe the OP's thought process shows a level of immaturity on many levels. I don't believe she has been out in the real world for long..if this situation has her missing work. This is the selfish act of a child wanting their own way and when they don't hear and get what they wanted.. they throw a fit and tell you that you are being mean. I know that is what my children tell me when they don't get their way... but again... this is just my two cents.. and I am new to the site..so what do I know?
:cool:

Originally Posted by tjwarder (Post 3498189)

:rolleyes: One would think. But there are many things people do (or fail to do) that should be common sense but are not simply because of ignorance ~ real, "I just never knew" ignorance, not doing something one knows to be stupid, foolish or risky. Seems as though that is the reason there initially was so much support and kindness in this thread - those with more experience seemed to recognize that OP honestly did not think the very young male would be a problem and did not condemn her mistake. As a newbie to YT, I have read hours and hours of past threads, and other than the one post that observed that OP was online but unresponsive, NONE of the comments were rude or anything less than supportive and helpful. Even that one observation was not rude, hateful or mean. A bit wry, not 'supportive' or kind, but not mean. Trust me, I've read hundreds, perhaps thousands of comments here the past few weeks, and there definitely have been some sharp, personal attacks toward posters who admit mistakes, question or disagree with the majority ~ just not this time. In one, I eventually used the "ignore" function for two over-the-top, albeit experienced and knowledgeable YTers (I've since 'un-ignored' so my pup can reap the benefit of their wisdom when they are not upset and outraged :p). While I did not see anything unkind prior to OP's 'I'm so upset' response, I guess her feelings are her own and she's entitled to feel as she does . . . but an FYI, OP: the "ignore" feature is easily applied to anyone you do not wish to hear from, whether it is one person or many. Might I suggest that you use it to save yourself from any further upset while continuing to read and consider (and perhaps reply) to those who have only offered their opinions and experience without condemning you. This is how it works: suppose you decide that I am mean or just trying to bait you - put me on "ignore" then post away and discuss what is happening with the rest of the board. Sure, I (or whoever you ignore) will see your post and may fire off yet another missive that you will find offensive . . . but those words will be blocked from your view and you do not have to choose to read and engage (or escalate) the drama. Don't stay away or only return to post your own angst and anger ~ stick around and ask your questions, and be respectful of those who have offered advice and support, even if you disagree or dislike the advice given. In your original post, you knew this unfortunate event was a problem. Those who have tried to help would like to know how this turns out, no matter what you decide, and their wisdom could very well help you and your pup through a very difficult and risky situation.

Sorry so long, but as another newbie with more ignorance than wisdom, I do have one very important admission and question to those with experience.



I truly did not know, or rather, just never had reason to think about that before. Yes, I did know that if a female is in heat, you should not allow her to be around male dogs and not allow her to be out roaming around where she could encounter other dogs. But I've never had a dog in heat before - each dog we've ever owned was either spayed/neutered beforehand or we promptly had it done ASAP. We planned to do that with our new rescue, Sugar Bear. Vet told us that she should have all vaccinations since we had no history on her and gave us the following time table: shots -> wait 3 weeks -> booster shot -> wait 2 weeks -> spay. She also had an ear infection and inflamed tonsils so he put her on meds and said to delay the booster until she finished them. That is where we are at now -- one round of shots, no booster yet and no spay . . . and I think she may be in heat. Don't really know, since I've never had one in heat, and don't know (despite my good friend, Google) how to determine the stage of heat if she is in it. Large (fenced) male dog next door seems especially whiny when she is outside and she had a 2-day bout of diarrhea and left one drop of blood near an accident indoors.

Assuming she is in heat, am I correct that we should NOT take her to board/train for the two weeks we will be traveling later this month? If we should not leave a female (possibly) in heat anywhere, then this would be a bad idea, right ~ possibly putting us in the sad position of the OP. Is there a way to specifically determine if she is at risk, or should we just look for Plan B or C just to be safe? I do not want to take risks with her, and am grateful that so many of you responded with information to this thread - you provided an education and may have prevented a similar (ignorant) mistake. Sugar Bear and I thank you all.