So very very true. I will say that I do lean towards places that would allow me to come in with Kaji in an open carrier, or in my arms. But if he's not allowed, I'm not going to throw a fit. My bf's family, my own relatives, and some friends have dogs (big, medium, and small) that have absolutely no doggie etiquette whatsoever. I have a friend who crates her dogs in her kitchen at night, but her kitchen reeks of urine and she wanted Kaji to spend the night with them and not with me. :( Another friend keeps her golden in the backyard and in all his life, she has not picked up after him, ever. You can't walk in that backyard without stepping in poo. If this is how some people treat their dogs in their own homes, do you think they will clean them up for a day out on the town?

I will say that I try my very best to keep my boy clean because he is an inside dog and I allow him on the couch, bed, and anywhere else he wants to sit. I also taught him basic obedience.

Well, I have to say, I've never seen a problem with dogs in stores in SF, or people arguing that their dogs should not have to leave, etc. Thor has sometimes barked at other dogs when he's inside, but I just take him out until he calms down.

There are a few stores that won't let me in with Thor, but generally people love to see him. Generally I won't shop at a store that's not dog friendly. Why give them money unless they give ME an optimal shopping experience?

I would feel the same way about shopping at some stores that DO allow them. So it goes both ways. I guess stores have to decide if it's worth the headache.

Really? What if there are no dogs in the store when you enter? Do you check with the manager, and then decide to leave they say dogs are allowed?

No, but I would leave some stores if I walked in and there were dogs already there. I've done it before and asked in some stores if dogs were allowed when I saw someone with one. (Twice at Panera Bread.) Do you walk in stores and ask if they are allowed and then only spend your money if they are?

You know, I am thinking back to the nine years I lived in New York - of all the horrific amounts of rudeness I saw (and I once saw someone get robbed), I never, ever saw dogs get into fights in stores, or anything similar. So while I'm sure it's happened somewhere, some cities have found a way to function while remaining dog friendly. Incidentally, the more high-end a store is, the more likely it is to cater to dogs. If Bergdorfs can keep its merchandise clean, I imagine Target would be able to as well.

Your neighborhood sounds like mine.

Based on my experience in our local pet stores, I would not support allowing dogs into other places. I encountered a man last week at PetSmart who had the biggest German Shepherd I have ever seen. I think my eyes popped out of my head when I turned to see whose nose was in my backside. The dog was enormous, and the owner allowed him to push me out of the way while I was trying to pay for my purchase. Turns out the dog just wanted his treat from the clerk, but I thought the Shepherd wanted to swallow me whole -- and the owner just stood there laughing (the guy was really good looking and had beautiful eyes, but that was beside the point :D)

At our Petco, I saw an older man with a Golden Retriever that he was allowing to terrorize everyone, jumping and lunging at them. I would have held the dog at the collar, but the man gave the dog the length of the leash.

But again, those are big dogs. My guess is that's why Manhattan is so easily dog-friendly. It's the ultimate urban environment, and much more difficult to keep a big dog (especially when if you're in a walk-up apartment). So while there are tons of dogs, they are usually small.

I agree with both you and Cerise. We don't have children yet, and if it weren't for Sadie, i'd be the lonliest woman in town. She is a child to me, she's very much like a baby and i would know, i'm an infant teacher in a daycare and i can honestly tell you that Sadie is not very different if at all from many of my babies that i care for. there are so many times someone will talk about their child and i'll mention how it was the same with Sadie. Dogs potty train just like kids, they learn, they need healthy foods and diets, they live and breathe with us and to me they are no different and shouldn't be treated so than our babies. that's just me, and that's coming from someone that loves her dog like a baby.

[QUOTE=BamaFan121s;3034669]Easily mandated eh? I can easily pick up my 50 lb hound and control her. Who's to judge if a dog is being controlled or if it was distrubing someone? Someone with an extreme fear of dogs may be distrubed just be the dog being there? Should it therefor be removed. The whole issue is MORE easily avoided by just not allowing them in the first place, thus eliminating any gray area and only displeasing a very small portion of society. :)


I have an extreme fear of hearing or seeing someone vomit. Does that mean that all people feeling a bit ill should never be allowed into stores and public restrooms just to avoid causing me grief over this fear?

People have fears of many many many silly things. The rest of the world shouldn't suffer due to others fears.

I do agree with arguements about allergies and the size, control, and cleanliness of dogs. Yes some are allergic, yes some are huge, and yes some are dirty. But i'm allergic to smoke and so far only a few cities have banned that and people still smoke outside the door so i still have to deal with it, and also there are many out of control, HUGE, and unclean people everywhere and you don't make them stay outside and tell them to bath, behave, or loose weight to come inside.

I know you don't think people and dogs compare, but i don't see why dogs can't be with their humans. Aid-dogs go everywhere with their humans, why make that exception but not make one for all dog owners to enjoy their poochie companions?

LOL...yes, I certainly DO think that people who are sick enough to throw up all over public places should stay at home! :grin2:

But, I used that as ONE example of how there is a gray area as to what could be considered "disturbing" to other patrons.:rolleyes: In other words, why it wouldn't be an easy thing to regulate.

You're right...because they are PEOPLE, not dogs.

And I don't know why the rest of society should have to be around someone else's pet...lol. Service animals, on the other hand, are a completely different category--they serve a function other than just for the enjoyment of their owners.

just a simple question here. if you are so offended about dogs in stores, why own one at all?

i totally hear you on restaurants. and while i'm sad i can't take her into one with me because she's little and out of the way, i too wouldn't like to see a bigger dog near a place i eat or buy food. that i totally understand. but a craft store or a clothing store doesn't bother me one bit. if i saw a dog in one i wouldn't flip out and leave, ESPECIALLY SINCE I OWN ONE

Rachel, although many of us (me included) think of our dogs as our babies, it's important to recognize that legally there is a huge distinction between humans and dogs.

People, even little babies, have constitutional rights. Store owners must (and should) make their establishments accessible to all people, even those who may be disabled. Back in the 60's people staged sit in's so that all people, no matter what race, be allowed in public establishments.

Dogs have no such legal rights. It is totally up to the discretion of the store owner whether or not to permit pets.

Likewise, each of us can decide whether or not to shop at stores that are not pet friendly.

As Maximo pointed out, my dealings with Petsmart make me glad most of the places I shop do not permit dogs!

Having a fear of dogs is just a side point. More store owners would agree that having a no dog policy causes less trouble and less drama. As much as some people would enjoy having their pup with them at all times, it would bring much more heartache to those who own stores. I think this would drive more people who do NOT want to be around dogs to stay home and I would bet business would go down.

People are not allergic to fat, unruly and unclean people. And they are PEOPLE, not animals. People and animals do not have the same rights. Places are able to refuse business to whomever they choose, so if someone is out of control, they can be asked to leave. I would hope someone wouldn't be asked to leave because they are "huge".

Aide dogs do just that -- they aide. As a pet owner, we do not have the same rights as a service dog handler. That is not comparable. Just because we "want" our dogs there, there is no justification for them to be with us at all times. Unless they are therapy, service or emotional assistance dogs, they do not need to accompany their owner into all places, especially ones where food are served.

Just my two cents.

i wanted to clarify that in my arguements that dogs should be allowed into "some" stores i never was the one that said that dogs should be allowed 100% equal "rights" as humans, i think they should be allowed to accompany their owners in places where there is no violation of food codes or even in some restaurants if their tables were set up higher so the dogs could rest on the floor nearby. but i don't recall saying i wanted an equal rights movement for dogs anytime soon. they aren't human i understand that, but when they are little enough to carry in our arms i don't see the harm in bringing them along for a quick shopping trip somewhere. sometimes i'm running an errand and i want to just take Sadie for a little drive. when there are no drive throughs or the store isn't dog friendly i can't just leave her in the car, she could be stolen or if it's too hot or cold she could die. it's irresponsible to leave her in the car, so wouldn't it be nice to just bring her inside for whatever quick thing i needed to grab on the way home? instead i have to double back to take her home and then go to the store. it's just frustrating to not be able to just have her tag along especially when she's easy to carry and small enough to fit in a cart seat or bag.

i understand that you can't make a rule for small dogs and disallow big dogs, that wouldn't be fair and it would be sad that we're now discriminating against "races" of dogs :P but i still see it from the side of how much easier life would be if they would allow dogs to just tag along now and then. most people in our daycare don't even take their kids to the store because they are hard to deal with in there, so i don't think allowing dogs into certain stores would actually cause an uproar in the amount of dogs running around in stores. i think it'd basically increase a few customers who want to browse and shop with a dog, and it would stay somewhat the same because most people who have bigger dogs don't want to drag them along anyways.

that's just a few of my opinions tho. i know i can't expect big changes just to fit my needs, but it's fun to imagine a world in which i could take her everywhere and not worry about paying 60++ for a two day trip for low rate crappy dog care