Chocolate and Golden Yorkies?

[Haleys_mom]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

The Mars company...manufacturer of that test has stated they are unable to determine the genetic make up for biewers and also state it is unable to accurately determine the make up of breeds from European lines.

Copied and cross posted with permission.

We have received your inquiry about Biewer Terriers.

For the detection of mixed-breed dogs, we are currently able to detect signatures of 153 American Kennel Club (AKC) defined breeds and 4 non-AKC breeds. We are working towards expanding this to the full list of AKC registered breeds and more of the popular non-AKC breeds over the next year. Unfortunately, since the Biewer Terrier is not a breed we currently recognize, it will not be included in this expansion of our test.

The analysis is designed to find matches to the breeds in our database, so if the computer can find matches between your dog's DNA and our designated breeds with enough confidence, it will identify them. If your dog does contain a portion of Biewer Terrier, the analysis may identify Minors of breeds that are genetically closely related to it.

However, if the computer cannot find breeds that match with enough confidence, the Biewer Terrier portion will be left blank or it will be considered "too mixed" to call. For the other breeds in your dog, if there is a significant component from a breed that is covered in the test (e.g., a purebred dog in last three generations) then Wisdom Panel MX should be able to detect these other breeds. Overall, it is important to note that the presence of a breed signature that the test does not detect at present may cause inaccuracies in the analysis.

In regards to your purebreed inquiry; Wisdom Panel MX test analyzes over 300 genetic markers to determine the ancestral breed composition of a mixed-breed dog. Within this panel, there are almost no markers which are absolutely specific to one breed. Each breed will have a combination of markers within the panel that represent the breed. Within a mixed-breed dog, depending on the heritage of the breeds, not all of those markers may be passed down through the generations to appear in the genetic make-up of the dog that is tested. For example, on average, you would only expect 25% of the breed markers from a Grandparent to be passed down to the current dog. Thus, the way the test works is to use a best-fit model that is selected on the basis of the highest probability for each breed depending upon the analysis of markers that are found in the current dog. The final report is generated depending on the highest probability breeds found with a lower limit cut-off to ensure that the false positive reports are reduced to a minimum.

The relationship between the markers and breeds is unfortunately proprietary information as it forms the basis of the test and is therefore not publicized. Where pure breed dogs are concerned, most often the report generated by the test will simply indicate the pure strain of the breed in question as no other markers will be found at a high enough confidence level to generate a result. However, although our sample base covers 157 breeds and comprises more than 8,700 samples in total, there are several cases in which pure breed dogs may not be detected as purebred by Wisdom Panel MX test.

First, if the dog in question is not or was not bred within the continental US, even if it is an example of an AKC recognized breed, then we may not pick up the breed signature as the distinctive markers that identify the breed may vary greatly in foreign lines. Secondly, if there has been a very isolated breeding line for the pure breed, then we may not have enough coverage of that breed's gene pool to identify the dog as purebred. For these reasons, we do not advertise or recommend the use of Wisdom Panel MX as a test for confirming the purity of a purebred dog. This is due to the fact that Wisdom Panel MX is designed to find multiple breeds in an analysis, under the assumption that the dog it is testing has more than one breed in its mix. A test to determine breed purity would need to be designed for that purpose and its accuracy validated.


We hope this answers your inquiry. If you have any additional questions, please do not hesitate to contact us at customercare@marsveterinary.com or 888-K9 PET TEST (1-888-597-3883).

Have you had your biewers dna tested?

[delicatepuzzle]

Originally Posted by Haleys_mom

DNA testing.

Did you do the DNA testing on your biewer? I'm just wondering. It is possible that someone else mixed yours with a papi, or something. The biewers originate from the yorkshire terriers with a recessive piebald gene. A true biewer should not be mixed with anything else.

I just read the above. It does not mean that they are mixed. AKC just has not recognized them

[bchgirl]

My biewers have been dna tested for parentage. The parent company of this particular test infadically state it is not accurate for biewers...so I have no interest. I know women whose dogs were tested...the results are all over the place and no I do not believe within 3 generations there is any saluki, bassett hound, golden retriever, or pekingese....all which have been given in results. It's impossible...you would see characteristics of the breeds in the litters.

[BamaFan121s]

To the OP. The answers to your questions will differ depending on who you ask. In regards to Chocolate and Goldens and Partis, the different coloring is considered color faults--> not colors recognized by the breed standard. Some people have no issue with breeding them, others believe that Yorkies should ONLY be bred to adhere to the breed standard.

In regards to the Biewers, opinions on their origination and genetic makeup differs too, depending on who you ask. There are some that claim various tests have indicated that the Biewers are composed of various breeds, there are others who disagree--both sides with valid research, theories, facts, etc etc whatever you want to call it, to back up their stand on the issue. The one thing all sides have in common is that they are convinced that their view is the right one.

[Haleys_mom]

Originally Posted by delicatepuzzle

Did you do the DNA testing on your biewer? I'm just wondering. It is possible that someone else mixed yours with a papi, or something. The biewers originate from the yorkshire terriers with a recessive piebald gene. A true biewer should not be mixed with anything else.

I just read the above. It does not mean that they are mixed. AKC just has not recognized them

They are trying to get the biewers recognized by AKC and I think one day, they will accomplish that. This link should help you out.
Biewer Terrier History
Mrs Biewer is a member of the btca which I think is great for that club. It's the only club she promotes. I can look at a lot of these dogs and see where they would have papillon in them.

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by Haleys_mom

DNA testing.

That is not a reference unless you have a copy of a DNA test completed on a Biewer that shows it includes a papillion and 2-3 other breeds besides yorkie. Which I do not think is going to be produced any time soon. What SOURCE document are you using to base your assertions? When you make a claim like that, it is wise to be able to back it up with written reference material.

It is difficult enough to read and try to form one's own opinion on color combinations in the Yorkie breed. Some read a post and that stays in their mind like a "fact." I try to base my opinions on actual written reference material that is coming from a reputable source. For Yorkshire Terriers, the ultimate reference is YTCA (even though some may disagree with it) -- still they write the rules for the breed! Which one of the Biewer Clubs are you citing when saying it is made up of 3-4 different breeds, one being pappillion? That is my question.

[MinMuf1]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

To the OP. The answers to your questions will differ depending on who you ask. In regards to Chocolate and Goldens and Partis, the different coloring is considered color faults--> not colors recognized by the breed standard. Some people have no issue with breeding them, others believe that Yorkies should ONLY be bred to adhere to the breed standard.

In regards to the Biewers, opinions on their origination and genetic makeup differs too, depending on who you ask. There are some that claim various tests have indicated that the Biewers are composed of various breeds, there are others who disagree--both sides with valid research, theories, facts, etc etc whatever you want to call it, to back up their stand on the issue. The one thing all sides have in common is that they are convinced that their view is the right one.

[Pinehaven]

I'm coming in this discussion a bit late but to the OP, hopefully this explanation can help you understand where the off colors come from - these colors are all in the genes (or lack of genes). I'll try to make it simple, so you can get an idea on how color genetics and recessive genes work.

The majority of our yorkies are black and tan in color with at least one copy of the grey gene, which dilutes their black coat coloring to blue as the pup grows. Each parent has either no copies of the grey gene and have black coats, or they have 1 copy of the grey gene and have blue coats (heterozygous for grey and will pass that gene on to 50% of it's offspring) or 2 copies of the grey gene and have blue coats. Dog who have two copies of the grey gene, received 1 grey gene from their mother and 1 grey gene from their father. These dogs are homozygous for grey and will pass that grey gene on to 100% of their offspring.

A number of our traditional colored yorkies have recessive (hidden) genes for color too, that's where the parti, golden and chocolate colors come in. In order for this hidden recessive gene to make an appearance, two dogs who carry this gene, are bred together. The resulting litter will consist of 25% of the pups being traditional colored who did not get a copy of the recessive color gene, 50% of the pups will look traditional colored and do receive 1 copy of the recessive color gene and 25% of the pups receive 2 copies of the recessive color gene and display the off coloring (parti, golden, or chocolate). A golden, chocolate or parti colored yorkie will pass 1 of it's colorful genes to all of it's offspring because they are homozygous for their color (they have 2 copies of the gene and have to pass one copy onto it's offspring). Even if a pup is born that looks like a traditional colored yorkie, it carries 1 copy of that colorful gene and that carrier pup will then go on to pass the gene onto 1/2 of his own offspring.

These recessive colorful genes have been in the breed since it's beginning. It's documented in early American Kennel Club Stud books that in addition to yorkies being born blue and tan and black and tan, there were also other colors listed like "Tan," "Dark Tan" and "Blue" being noted. Some of our first US born show yorkies were born completely blue in color (not blue and tan), even Ernest Hemmingway's grandfather owned a white yorkie in the early 1900's.

Off color has popped up in the litters of some very well known and highly regarded old time breeders during the early to mid 1900's. But back in the old days, it was thought that the off color was a genetic defect or freak of nature, we are now wiser and have a better understanding of how recessive genes can hide for generations and appear when the right breeding takes place (a breeding where both parents carry the same recessive color gene).

Chocolate, golden and parti colored dogs are no more prone to health problems than traditional colored yorkies are, though parti coloring in some animals, do have hearing problems. We have yet to discover any deafness issues with the parti colored yorkies.

[hartygirl]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

They are breed faults, anomalies that you don't try to produce. The puppies that come out this way should be spayed/neutered and then loved,pampered, and treasured just as any other.

Agreed, I have a golden, she is in my albums, her name is Addison. I call her my Blonde bomber!

[tammy8833]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

I'm coming in this discussion a bit late but to the OP, hopefully this explanation can help you understand where the off colors come from - these colors are all in the genes (or lack of genes). I'll try to make it simple, so you can get an idea on how color genetics and recessive genes work.

The majority of our yorkies are black and tan in color with at least one copy of the grey gene, which dilutes their black coat coloring to blue as the pup grows. Each parent has either no copies of the grey gene and have black coats, or they have 1 copy of the grey gene and have blue coats (heterozygous for grey and will pass that gene on to 50% of it's offspring) or 2 copies of the grey gene and have blue coats. Dog who have two copies of the grey gene, received 1 grey gene from their mother and 1 grey gene from their father. These dogs are homozygous for grey and will pass that grey gene on to 100% of their offspring.



A number of our traditional colored yorkies have recessive (hidden) genes for color too, that's where the parti, golden and chocolate colors come in. In order for this hidden recessive gene to make an appearance, two dogs who carry this gene, are bred together. The resulting litter will consist of 25% of the pups being traditional colored who did not get a copy of the recessive color gene, 50% of the pups will look traditional colored and do receive 1 copy of the recessive color gene and 25% of the pups receive 2 copies of the recessive color gene and display the off coloring (parti, golden, or chocolate). A golden, chocolate or parti colored yorkie will pass 1 of it's colorful genes to all of it's offspring because they are homozygous for their color (they have 2 copies of the gene and have to pass one copy onto it's offspring). Even if a pup is born that looks like a traditional colored yorkie, it carries 1 copy of that colorful gene and that carrier pup will then go on to pass the gene onto 1/2 of his own offspring.

These recessive colorful genes have been in the breed since it's beginning. It's documented in early American Kennel Club Stud books that in addition to yorkies being born blue and tan and black and tan, there were also other colors listed like "Tan," "Dark Tan" and "Blue" being noted. Some of our first US born show yorkies were born completely blue in color (not blue and tan), even Ernest Hemmingway's grandfather owned a white yorkie in the early 1900's.

Off color has popped up in the litters of some very well known and highly regarded old time breeders during the early to mid 1900's. But back in the old days, it was thought that the off color was a genetic defect or freak of nature, we are now wiser and have a better understanding of how recessive genes can hide for generations and appear when the right breeding takes place (a breeding where both parents carry the same recessive color gene).

Chocolate, golden and parti colored dogs are no more prone to health problems than traditional colored yorkies are, though parti coloring in some animals, do have hearing problems. We have yet to discover any deafness issues with the parti colored yorkies.

[Haleys_mom]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

I'm coming in this discussion a bit late but to the OP, hopefully this explanation can help you understand where the off colors come from - these colors are all in the genes (or lack of genes). I'll try to make it simple, so you can get an idea on how color genetics and recessive genes work.

The majority of our yorkies are black and tan in color with at least one copy of the grey gene, which dilutes their black coat coloring to blue as the pup grows. Each parent has either no copies of the grey gene and have black coats, or they have 1 copy of the grey gene and have blue coats (heterozygous for grey and will pass that gene on to 50% of it's offspring) or 2 copies of the grey gene and have blue coats. Dog who have two copies of the grey gene, received 1 grey gene from their mother and 1 grey gene from their father. These dogs are homozygous for grey and will pass that grey gene on to 100% of their offspring.

A number of our traditional colored yorkies have recessive (hidden) genes for color too, that's where the parti, golden and chocolate colors come in. In order for this hidden recessive gene to make an appearance, two dogs who carry this gene, are bred together. The resulting litter will consist of 25% of the pups being traditional colored who did not get a copy of the recessive color gene, 50% of the pups will look traditional colored and do receive 1 copy of the recessive color gene and 25% of the pups receive 2 copies of the recessive color gene and display the off coloring (parti, golden, or chocolate). A golden, chocolate or parti colored yorkie will pass 1 of it's colorful genes to all of it's offspring because they are homozygous for their color (they have 2 copies of the gene and have to pass one copy onto it's offspring). Even if a pup is born that looks like a traditional colored yorkie, it carries 1 copy of that colorful gene and that carrier pup will then go on to pass the gene onto 1/2 of his own offspring.

These recessive colorful genes have been in the breed since it's beginning. It's documented in early American Kennel Club Stud books that in addition to yorkies being born blue and tan and black and tan, there were also other colors listed like "Tan," "Dark Tan" and "Blue" being noted. Some of our first US born show yorkies were born completely blue in color (not blue and tan), even Ernest Hemmingway's grandfather owned a white yorkie in the early 1900's.

Off color has popped up in the litters of some very well known and highly regarded old time breeders during the early to mid 1900's. But back in the old days, it was thought that the off color was a genetic defect or freak of nature, we are now wiser and have a better understanding of how recessive genes can hide for generations and appear when the right breeding takes place (a breeding where both parents carry the same recessive color gene).

Chocolate, golden and parti colored dogs are no more prone to health problems than traditional colored yorkies are, though parti coloring in some animals, do have hearing problems. We have yet to discover any deafness issues with the parti colored yorkies.

Sue, has anyone ever done any dna testing on the partis? I know a few years there was never such a thing as a parti, and I'm wondering why all of a sudden there are so many? This is just out of curiosity

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by Haleys_mom

Sue, has anyone ever done any dna testing on the partis? I know a few years there was never such a thing as a parti, and I'm wondering why all of a sudden there are so many? This is just out of curiosity

Off color has always been in our breed, it's just that they were swept under the carpet (or thrown off a bridge) but in 2000, AKC allowed Parti coloring to be registered. It was only after an extensive AKC investigation, where they DNA'd 42 litters and as many living relatives of the Nikkos breeding, and interviewed with Old-time, well known breeders that said they've had parti and other colors show up in their lines, that AKC decided to allow off colored yorkies to be registered.

One well known breeder, said she'd had lots of parti coloring show up in her litters but she got rid of the parti pups and never repeated the breeding ... the Nikkos bloodlines traced back to this breeders stock.

I'm sure if AKC still denied the registration of off colors, we would be seeing or hearing about off colors, a lot less often.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

Thought I had better clarify my previous post in this thread. The Chocolate and golden colors are anomalies..... I was not speaking to the Biewers or Parti's.

Parti, chocolate and golden, colors are all a result of the same thing ... recessive genes. They're not an anomaly; it's just simple genetics.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

Chocolates, Goldens and partis are all color faults according to the YTCA and should not be intentionally bred:

[COLOR="Blue"]An Important Note About Color in Yorkshire Terriers
By Gale Thompson

The most distinctive characteristic of an adult Yorkshire Terrier is its long blue and tan silk coat. A puppy is born black and tan, but the only recognized colors for adults when registering with AKC are blue and gold, blue and tan, black and gold, or black and tan.

The AKC Breed Standard and YTCA Code of Ethics do not recognize any other color dogs than noted above. This includes all gold, born blue, liver also known as red or chocolate), and parti-colors. One of the reasons for avoiding breeding "off-colored" Yorkies is because it could be a genetic defect that may affect the dog's health. Some health problems can include, but aren't limited to, severe skin problems, allergies, total hair loss and in some cases long-term illness and/or death. ]

I wonder why YTCA doesn't list black coated or golden pointed yorkies as being "off colored"? It's obvious that golden, chocolate and parti colors are off color but black coated adults, red or deep golden pointed or for that matter, light blue colored yorkies are just as much "off colored" as the colors of dogs they've listed. Also in the description they've listed of health problems associated with off colored yorkies, the ailments they describe are strictly concerning blue born yorkies who have a condition called "color dilution alopecia." Parti, golden and chocolate do not suffer from these problems but YTCA's website leads you to believe that all off colors can suffer from the issues they've listed. It would be nice if they'd update their site to clarify this somewhat misleading information.

Originally Posted by Ladymom

Parti-Color Yorkshire Terriers?

Do not be fooled into buying one of these dogs. Now that Designer Dogs are the rage, the “new” Parti-Color Yorkie is certain to draw attention. While we have had problems in the past with “rare gold” Yorkshire Terriers being advertised, the parti-color is a new one! While some breeds have an occasional mismark and some breeds do have a gene for a white dog, we do not. Had there been a problem with white markings, piebald dogs, or white dogs, it would have been addressed in our Standard. Due to unscrupulous breeders advertising parti-colored Yorkshire Terriers at premium prices, our members voted unanimously at our annual meeting to add a disqualification for these and other off colored dogs.

The Yorkshire Terrier is a tan dog with a blue saddle. The “rare gold” Yorkie is actually a dog that appears as such due to an improper saddle pattern. Show breeders have seen this and commonly call it running gold. When the dog is cut down, you can see that the blue saddle does not come down far enough. The Yorkshire Terrier blue saddle extends lower than some of the other black and tan terriers extending to the elbow and also to the hock on the rear leg. Gold hairs can occur in the blue and black or blue hairs can appear in the gold. These faults are addressed in the Yorkshire Terrier Standard. These dogs have serious faults and they too should not be sold as "rare" but placed in loving homes as they are very incorrect. Yorkies do not have white markings…never have. A small white strip is sometimes seen on the chest of newborns but this always turns to tan within a few weeks. The AKC registration form for Yorkshire Terriers allows for four choices: blue and tan, blue and gold, black and tan, black and gold. There is no provision for markings.

Running gold and golden born yorkies are 2 completely different things. Dogs who "run gold" are born black and tan but as an adult, their saddle washes out to a tanish color. Golden yorkies are born gold with no black saddle; they often times have dark tipped golden hairs, but some are born a clear coated gold, platinum or blonde color.

Originally Posted by Ladymom

A brief history of the development of the Yorkshire Terrier will show that the dog was developed in the 1800’s. In England, the Waterside Terrier was often crossed with the old English terrier, a silky coated black and tan or blue and tan terrier weighing around five pounds. When crafters from Scotland came into England, they brought several “Scotch“terriers, among them the Paisley and the Clydesdale. The Paisley was a small silky coated dog in various shades of blue. The Clydesdale was a blue and tan dog with the exact color pattern as the Yorkie of today. All of these original breeds were grizzle, tan, blue, blue and tan, or black and tan. No white dog or dogs with white markings were involved in the process of developing the breed. The first Yorkshire Terriers were entered at shows as Broken Haired Scotch and Yorkshire Terriers. In the early days, dog classes were often divided by size, under five pounds and over five pounds; however, there was never a class for colors other than the blue and tan we see today. The color pattern and coat texture has bred true and has been dominate enough that the Silky Terrier evolved by crossing the Yorkshire Terrier and the Australian Terrier with basically the same coat of the of the Yorkie.

Just because dogs who were used to produce this breed were the "correct" color, it doesn't mean that he didn't carry recessive genes for other colors ... it's the genes of our foundation stock, that are still being passed on and appearing in our yorkies today.

[danyellm]

About Parti colored yorkies the ytca says....

Do not be fooled into buying one of these dogs.
Now that Designer Dogs are the rage, the “new” Parti-Color Yorkie is certain to draw attention. While we have had problems in the past with “rare gold” Yorkshire Terriers being advertised, the parti-color is a new one! While some breeds have an occasional mismark and some breeds do have a gene for a white dog, we do not. Had there been a problem with white markings, piebald dogs, or white dogs, it would have been addressed in our Standard. Due to unscrupulous breeders advertising parti-colored Yorkshire Terriers at premium prices, our members voted unanimously at our annual meeting to add a disqualification for these and other off colored dogs.



It sounds like the reason Parti's are not recognized is because of their price tag,or am I reading this wrong?