is anyone besides me amazed?

[Sweet Apple]

Apple was 2 days shy of 11 weeks...I hope that was old enough, but it's too late to worry now...she seems to be well adjusted...The first few nights, she was a little fussy, but I think all pups are fussy for a couple of days, when you get them....
Maggie & Apple
xoxoxo

[Ladymom]

Any breeder who violates the YTCA's Code of Conduct and tries to sell you a puppy before it is twelve weeks old is not a reputable breeder.

8) All puppies leaving the breeders possession will be a minimum of twelve (12) weeks
of age to facilitate adequate socialization as well as appropriate emotional and
temperament development through interaction with siblings, dam and other dogs.


There is also much information supporting keeping toy breed puppies until they are 12 weeks old:

Professional Dog Trainer Melanie Schlaginhaufen - http://www.knowingdogs.com/Images/Ch...our_Family.pdf (see #8)

Small Dogs, Big Hearts By Darlene Arden an internationally recognized authority on Toy dogs and their care, and a Certified Animal Behavior Consultant.
(see page 15) http://books.google.com/books?id=P9n...esult#PPA40,M1

A Good Breeder by TD Yandt a noted animal trainer noselicks.com - Articles - A Good Breeder

CanineDimensions.com, Dog Obedience Training, Dog Training Specialists CanineDimensions.com, Dog Obedience Training, Dog Training Specialists (see #9)

[SweetViolet]

Originally Posted by Marilize

The fact of the matter is: In South Africa, there are no breeders who keep their pups until that age...So, what should a prospective yorkie owner in SA do? I think they should just do the best they can... Buy from a good breeder who keeps the dogs in the house, get a health guarantee (also not readily available here, one breeder laughed at me when I suggested it) and make sure that the pup is in good health.

I reckon I might be unpopular for this, but I am getting June at eight weeks. I don't have a choice. It is a really good breeder. She is responsible. She loves her dogs. She is well-versed in all things yorkie. She gives them only the best. And she lets them go earlier.

I guess it is just the social climate we are living in, but I am sure when more people know about this and more people are able to do something about it, we too will be able to leave the pups with their momma until 12 weeks.

Amen...you took the words right out of my mouth!

Being an American...and an old one at that...I can tell you that it was not always 12 weeks for American pups. In the 80s, when I was breeding Collies, conventional wisdom said "8 weeks." In the 50s and 60s, when I was growing up, it was "6 weeks or as soon as they are weaned, whichever comes first."

I got Puddin' at 6 weeks. That is when the breeder was letting them go. Should I have said "No, I want a 12 week old puppy?" I expect I would still be Yorkie-less had I taken that attitude.

Puddin' is healthy and well-adjusted. She plays well with Bella, the slightly older pup of another YTer and I expect she will play well with Cash and June when they come over. The vet who said they bond well with their owners at the 8 week age is absolutely correct. Puddin', at 13 weeks, is now moving into an independent stage where she wants less cuddling and confinement and more freedom...not, for me, the ideal time to introduce her to a new family and expect her to bond.

In all truth, I think 6 weeks is too young, but I also think 12 weeks is less than optimum as the pup is transitioning into an independent and exploratory stage. I think 8-10 weeks is ideal as the pup has an emotional need for closeness and cuddling at that time which improves bonding. I don't know why we can't teach them to be socialized or to attenuate their bite...Puddin's doing just fine in those regards.

We need to remember there are no absolutes in these matters. What is right in one situation may be wrong in another. Others may view the teachings of the mother dog as being more important than optimum bonding with the new owners, but I don't. Until recently, American puppies regularly went to new homes at 6 weeks of age and grew into happy, healthy, well-socialized dogs. I think the right age depends on a wide range of factors, and I think the pup's ability to bond with the people it will be living with for the next dozen years trumps what is described here as the mother's teachings.

I know this is an unpopular point of view, but that's how I feel.

[zorrolinchen]

I agree with the OP.
Our Rambo is a little one (now he is 20 months and has 3 pounds) and his breeder who is really carefully told us she can Rambo let go if he has his shots. Rambo is a tiny one so he got his shots later (at this time he had two pounds) than normally and was 5 months old as he left his breeder. That was a great decision and I have known that I got a healthy and well socialized dog with the necessary shots.

In germany the most breeders from small dogs don´t let them go before they are 12 weeks and maybe 16 weeks old. Please notice that a pup who is a little bit older has a better immunity against illness.

[fon]

i got jacey at almost 7 weeks she has no health problems and is more of baby that wants held , if i'm not in the same room with ther she cries, i got taleigh at 11 weeks she is fine also as of health ,now shes not the kind odg who likes being held or dont really care if u walk out of the room

[Maria_Ledger]

I got Roxy very young too, she was just over 7 weeks and the last of a litter of 5 to leave the mother. The only problem we had with her was trying to get her to eat, (And a mild hypoglycemia episode) even though we got food from the breeder I still think she was very sad at leaving her home but after a few days with loads of love and attention she realised she was going to be very loved She just needed time to adjust.
The lady we got her off has been breeding Yorkie's and Maltese for years and when we went to see Roxy at 5 weeks she told us call out in 2 weeks to pick her up!!

I would wait longer if getting a second furbaby but there definately isn't any behavioural problems with Roxy.

[zorrolinchen]

Okay, it´s not absolute usual that younger babys got ill, but think about that they come in a new home maybe with new animals and the immunity against things like bacterias and virus (don´t know the right english word for that) is better if the pup is a little bit older.

A puppy's immune system is not immediately available but only with increasing age structure.

[bjh]

Originally Posted by MyFairLacy

It is sad that so many breeders sell toy breeds too young and pet owners aren't educating themselves before buying a pet. Rylie was 7 weeks when my parents brought him home. Luckily he didn't have any hypo issues but he doesn't really interact well with other dogs except lacy and he did not learn bit inhibition. He doesn't bite to be mean but when you give him a treat or play with him he will bite down so hard and doesn't realize it hurts. Lacy was 11weeks and has a much softer mouth. She usually gets along with other small dogs well

Michelle, I have two sisters that are 4 years old that do this. It frustrates me to no end. There were both raised in my house with their mother who is very gentle in taking treats. I have tried and tried to get them to be gentle in taking treats but it does no good. I feel like I am feeding alligators. I really think I have no one to blame but myself for not teaching them better when they were puppies. They just get so excited at treat time and I think they just forget their manners. Part of it that they are completing with the others.

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by SweetViolet

Amen...you took the words right out of my mouth!

Being an American...and an old one at that...I can tell you that it was not always 12 weeks for American pups. In the 80s, when I was breeding Collies, conventional wisdom said "8 weeks." In the 50s and 60s, when I was growing up, it was "6 weeks or as soon as they are weaned, whichever comes first."

I got Puddin' at 6 weeks. That is when the breeder was letting them go. Should I have said "No, I want a 12 week old puppy?" I expect I would still be Yorkie-less had I taken that attitude.

Puddin' is healthy and well-adjusted. She plays well with Bella, the slightly older pup of another YTer and I expect she will play well with Cash and June when they come over. The vet who said they bond well with their owners at the 8 week age is absolutely correct. Puddin', at 13 weeks, is now moving into an independent stage where she wants less cuddling and confinement and more freedom...not, for me, the ideal time to introduce her to a new family and expect her to bond.

In all truth, I think 6 weeks is too young, but I also think 12 weeks is less than optimum as the pup is transitioning into an independent and exploratory stage. I think 8-10 weeks is ideal as the pup has an emotional need for closeness and cuddling at that time which improves bonding. I don't know why we can't teach them to be socialized or to attenuate their bite...Puddin's doing just fine in those regards.

We need to remember there are no absolutes in these matters. What is right in one situation may be wrong in another. Others may view the teachings of the mother dog as being more important than optimum bonding with the new owners, but I don't. Until recently, American puppies regularly went to new homes at 6 weeks of age and grew into happy, healthy, well-socialized dogs. I think the right age depends on a wide range of factors, and I think the pup's ability to bond with the people it will be living with for the next dozen years trumps what is described here as the mother's teachings.

I know this is an unpopular point of view, but that's how I feel.

In many states it is illegal to sell a puppy before eight weeks old.

Back in the 50's and 60's we also thought cigarette smoking was safe and didn't use seatbelts.

[JasmineNoelle]

We brought Prissy (poodle) home at eight weeks, she is now 7 years old. We brought Jasmine home at eight weeks also, she is now 13 weeks old. We had a couple hypoglycemic episodes with Prissy. We've never had any episodes with Jasmine. Prissy gets along with everyone (Peeps and dogs) b/c we socialized her from the get go and we are doing the same with Jasmine.

[bjh]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

I got Wylie at about 10 weeks (but, I actually wonder if he was 8 wks) and I didn't know much at all about yorkies at that point except about 2 weeks of research - I did know about what supplies to get and that they were prone to low blood sugar. He did have one or two episodes, which he came out of very quickly w/ nutrical. He was quite sturdy and about 2.5 pounds when I brought him home.

With Marcel, who I knew was a tiny - I didn't bring him home until he was 16 weeks old - he weighed 1 pound 4 oz at the time (he is now a sturdy 3 lbs as an adult). Even at 16 weeks, he was FAR more vulnerable than Wylie - but not in terms of hypoglyc. or anything (he never had a single episode) - more just his size at that point and how it relates to safety and vulnerability. I am SO glad I waited until 16 weeks. I mean, I'm a nurse for pete's sake, and I still didn't feel adequate at times to care for such a wee one.

As far as socializing and stuff, I can tell that Marcel (who was kept longer by his breeder) was far better off right from the beginning - he was then and is now much more secure, easy going, easy breezy, feels safe, no separation anxiety whatsoever, very relaxed - than Wylie was and is. I'm not sure if that's bc Wylie was taken more early from his mama or what - but there is quite a difference. I'd be interested to hear any breeder thoughts on that. It could just be personality, so who knows?

There are so many factors to consider that develop a puppy's personality. From my 12 years of experience I do know that many personality traits are inherited. I have one momma that is terrified of storms and she passes this trait on to her babies. I have some females that are calm and gentle and their pups usually follow their moms personalities. If you have a female that is a alpha female or one that has behavioral problems then that female can pass along some bad habits or traits.

You have to consider more than just the age of the pup but also how the pup is being raised. Just because a puppy is kept by a breeder until it is 12 weeks old does not mean that it has been properly socialized. I have seen and heard about many dogs from show breeders that have lots of socialization and behavioral problems because of how they were raised.

[SweetViolet]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

In many states it is illegal to sell a puppy before eight weeks old.

Back in the 50's and 60's we also thought cigarette smoking was safe and didn't use seatbelts.

Note the age is 8 weeks not 12, and I said 8-10 weeks was optimum in my opinion.

Smoking and seat belts have nothing to do with the age puppies can successfully leave their mothers. For decades dogs that left their mothers at 6 weeks grew into socialized, well-balanced animals. It's a fact, and it's indisputable. There's nothing we know now that changes that historical fact.

I think pups should go to their owners while they are still emotionally open to dependency on the owner rather than after they reach the more independent, exploratory stage where bonding is less important to them.

I'm not happy with this attitude of demonizing those who have taken young puppies. Better a conscientious YTer than someone who doesn't have the support and advice of the forum.

[bjh]

Originally Posted by SweetViolet

Note the age is 8 weeks not 12, and I said 8-10 weeks was optimum in my opinion.

Smoking and seat belts have nothing to do with the age puppies can successfully leave their mothers. For decades dogs that left their mothers at 6 weeks grew into socialized, well-balanced animals. It's a fact, and it's indisputable. There's nothing we know now that changes that historical fact.

I think pups should go to their owners while they are still emotionally open to dependency on the owner rather than after they reach the more independent, exploratory stage where bonding is less important to them.

I'm not happy with this attitude of demonizing those who have taken young puppies. Better a conscientious YTer than someone who doesn't have the support and advice of the forum.

I totally agree. I can find many websites that support what you are saying. I totally agree that pups should never be sold under 8 weeks. My preference is 10 to 12 weeks depending on the size of the puppies. I think we should be here to educate and advise but not condemn those that don't totally agree.

[ZoEys_MoM]

Before buying my Zoey, i did a lot of research on Yorkies because i had never owned a dog before. Come to think of it, i dont think i ever saw anything that said i should wait until she was twelve weeks. The breeder said she would be ready when she was 6 weeks and i didnt think anything of it. When i went to pick her up the family seemed so loving of their pet yorkies. It didnt seem like they were in it just for the money. Now, looking back i cant believe she let them go that young. Zoey does have some behavioral issues, mostly to do with barking at anything and everything. But besides that shes perfect. That goes to show you that buyers should be more educated than i was...Sometimes you think you are but later find out that you knew so little.

[LilMissy]

Because I got Missy at an early age, I was able to watch her development from 7 weeks on. I felt that 10 weeks would have been the perfect age for her to come home. At 8-9 weeks she still wasn't doing as well as I would have hoped. I think 12 weeks would have been a bit too late. All JMO of course!