Petland in Canada vs. Petland in the USA

[gemy]

Originally Posted by fraservalley

Gemy - thanks for your post - I have a feeling though we may come from different sides of the question of proper breeding, our eventual aims are very similar - proper breeding and it does not matter who does the breeding. Wow why would that be on opposite sides? Purebred breeding is an art as much as it is a science. Healthy dogs are only the start for the purebreed breeder. It actually matters who does the breeding. I don't want dilettantes doing the breeding. I agree most petstores would not require that the breeding dams/sires, be tested for the whole gamut of pre breeding tests. Never mind the genetic tests. After all, all those tests would cut into their profit margin. Proper breeding is a term yet to be defined by a |Provincial Government| and guess what shouldn't be! The profession of breeding needs to get their act together to form a national presence, and be regulated just like health practionters under the RHPA.

Yes I am aware of the Summit meeting and yes CKC representatives were there. PIJAC spoke at the meeting as well as the President of Petland Canada who spoke by invitation. Many good things came out of the Summit, perhaps the greatest being a better understanding of what all parties are doing instead of inuendo which unfortuantely very much prevails - lets not also forget some individual people and some groups, have personal agendas right up to elimination of private ownership of any pet -

Well not just CKC representatives but the CEO of the organization, in other words the top honcho. Actually CKC spoke by invitation too. Well I've yet to see the publized notes on that meeting; so mayhap you were present; and if so in what capacity?
I think that many members of this site are aware of the "radical" groups that purport to look after "animals well being".


just let anyone try to take my two dogs fro
m me, they are very much a full member of my family, in fact , sometimes I wish I was treated so well lol and I believe the majority of pet owners are the same as myself and yourself.

But the world is not perfect - just look at how much child abuse we have, even abuse between adults or children against children. All we can do collectively is to make sure we know real situations and try to put in place a system which can hopefully address the source of the problem.

Your comment about CKC - you alluded to and is a fact, that CKC does not have the resources to actually monitor how thier members breed or who they sell to - the fact is that CKC members do sell to the public directly and through good petstores - I do think that CKC members are probably careful as to which stores they have dealings with.

Well I was responding to your comment about CKC. I merely stated they do what they can under the law. They do not have the power under the law to arrest miscreants or even to fine for improper breeding practices. They however do have the power to ban members for improper breeding practices that contravene the breeder code of ethics, and only for those breeders who are members of the CKC.

It is not that long ago the CKC allowed petstores to be members of CKC and accepted registrations through them. I remember reading at one time in their handbook that it is not legal for them to be able to say who can sell to who. I know they have changed thier practice but I am not sure if a court challenge were launched that CKC could continue the practice of saying who thier members can sell to or through. I am not a lawyer but I do know under fair trade practices, do not think I would want to argue that CKC has the power to restrict unfairly - but that is not the issue we are talking about - the issue is improper breeding - period.

I am not a lawyer either, but remember this is a non profit volunteer organization whose member elect to join, and to abide by the approved code of ethics. That has got to mean something in a court of law.....

It is also unfair, and you did not say this, to paint all pet stores as being bad. The majority who do have puppies, have at the forefront the welfare of the puppies in their care. Stores are highly visible to the public and government agencies - more so than any other source of puppies. Stores are not the problem of improper breeding. You must get to the source, the breeders themselves and good breeders I am sure would welcome being able to have a method of "certification" that their breeding practices are proper. It would be fantastic for the public and stores to be able to have that same assurance that the breeder had agreed to adhere to proper inspection and breeding practices.

I paint that puppies do NOT belong in petstores, period, full stop. I agree stores are not the problem of improper breeding, but they buy and place those puppies there,. and therefor support improper breeding practices. Stores being highly visible to the public. well yes, but not behind the scenes, and not from 9pm to 8 am. The public does not get the treat of seeing the puppies then.

I do have the place of breeders of good repute, and that is the breed clubs, and the breeder members thereof. All National Clubs do have a breeder code of ethics to abide by.

I do know as an example one Petland store in my area, who received two puppies from a very reputable breeder, I believe a Club member but not absolutely sure, the two puppies were found to be in need of liver shunts - a very expensive procedure. The breeder was contacted and the store was honestly told that the breeder just could not afford such an operation and if the pups were returned, she would have no choice but to put them to rest. Petland sent the pups to the University of Saskatchewan in Saskatoon to have the operations performed, the cost , in excess of $7000 dollars - both those pups are now in separate fantastic homes in the White Rock area, both doing very well.

Again who is this "club" member. Specify which club you are talking about. Well here ye, glad Petland decided to go ahead and have the surgery, but where was their screening of this so called reputable breeder. Everyone here knows you have the BATS done at 16 wks then again at 6mths. Again we go back to what are the health and pre breeding screening tests Petland asks for.
Oh and as a further question why would you know they are both doing well, and even this whole scenario unless you were intimately involved with Petland

I guess the gyst of my comments are that all sides must work together for a common good without pointing fingers - there is good and there is bad in all directions, breeders, the Clubs, animal welfare groups, stores and even SPCA s - I can only say again, lets put pressure where something can be done, at our Provincial governments - they have the road to a better solution.

Government is a solution of last resort. And certainly not government massaged by the profit interests of the business community

And let all of us watch for proper animal care, after all, our pets only ask to be cared for properly, in return they give unconditional love without us even asking for it.

I agree

You suggested I post a picture of my Yorkshire Terrier - unfortunately she has just recently passed away. I had her for many years and she latched onto me the moment we saw each other. She was from a CKC member, a show breeder who was also a Veterinarian - she was absolutely terrified of people, need I say more. I had heard about her through another breeder. The dog had been bred once and the birthing had been very difficult. I bought the mother, had her spayed and she was a wonderful companion for many years even though she would not look at me if I was holding another dog, especially if a puppy lol - she would actually walk in front of me and turn her head away while passing me - it was so funny................

Sorry for your loss. Not sure I understand about she was terrified of ppl and that she came from a show breeder and also a Veterinarian. Those two facts are not synomyous with a terrified pup, or indeed create a terrifed dog

There is something called multi quotes here; which I'm sad to confess I can't do. So within your response I shall comment in red.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by shodanusmc

So far, you have made 4 posts, and all are off base. You want to reduce Puppy Millers? Close every pet store that sells any type of canine. Now take a step back. Petland, and any other store that sells pups are nothing more than the food for the mills. The mills breed specifically for them, and also for running ads in various magazine under a spiffy name that will sell to anyone with a buck. They actually try to charge more than legit show breeders and hobby breeders. I see what your agenda is here, and it sticks.

Or take the stance that West Hollywood did. No selling of Pets in Petstores unless Pets are provided by reputable breeders. Meaning all parents of pups must be health tested and all pups that are provided to pet stores for sale have been health tested. In other words....pets must be of reputable breeding. So, since most reputable breeders do not place their pets in pets stores for selling...it's not gonna happen.

[shodanusmc]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Or take the stance that West Hollywood did. No selling of Pets in Petstores unless Pets are provided by reputable breeders. Meaning all parents of pups must be health tested and all pups that are provided to pet stores for sale have been health tested. In other words....pets must be of reputable breeding. So, since most reputable breeders do not place their pets in pets stores for selling...it's not gonna happen.

Totally agree.

[MyTrixie143]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

HOW in the name of all that is decent does a person take her own dog's innocent little puppies and turn them over to a store to sell them to whatever kind of being walks in the door with the money? How does any so-called breeder go to sleep that night knowing those little things are out there with no assurance of the type of home that little life is going to wind up in. No real dog lover could ever ever ever ever place their dog's puppies in any home she didn't agree to after long conversations and a confirming visit from the potential buyer and whatever else is required. What if some young couple buys one for their twin toddlers? Or someone who works 60 hours a week buys it and sticks it in a cage most of its life? Luckily, some of them do go to loving homes but how can the breeder or seller know without the old interview process. How could any humane person just turn their puppies over to the store manager and the shoddy lack of care they are going to get while at that store and walk out on those puppies? Jeeze, I will never get that!!!

I couldn't have said it better!!

Many people shouldn't own any dog let alone a yorkie. Does Petland carefully screen every buyer to ensure the puppy is going to a good home? Do they only sell on a spay/neuter agreement? Do they keep in contact with the owners throughout the puppy's life? Or do they offer take the dog back at any point in his/her life if the owner is no longer able to care for it?

The answer to these questions is NO. Therefor what is stopping these puppies from ending up in a shelter and possibly being euthanized? Or what is stopping them from a person with no knowledge that suddenly decides they want to breed? Or worse yet what stops them from selling a puppy to someone who does own a puppy mill?

This is why no reputable breeder would ever sell to a pet store. The breeder is the one that decided to bring innocent puppies into the world therefor they are responsible for the well being of the puppy and seeing that it finds a great home where it will remain its whole life.

I spend everyday with my pups from their birth until they are ready to leave, caring for them, loving them, spoiling them. I couldn't ever imagine just giving them to anyone who had the money and never knowing what happened to that pup or what fate lies ahead for it. How could anyone do that? I'll tell you, they don't care about the puppy, all they care about is the money and it is frankly quite sickening.

And that is why I will always be against pet stores that sell puppies.

[fraservalley]

Gemy - I have read your replies and though I do not agree with some of your points, I respect your right to have them. I have been involved with dog issues for a very long time and I would hope you respect my point of view also.

For me, I know where the problem is and what can be done if there is to be any hope of correcting improper breeding. There is no system which will eliminate it completely but there is a way to vastly make it more difficult for improper breeding to continue - and that is licencing, and inspection of kennels and then for the public to be educated to only buy puppies which have been bred in kennels licenced as a start. Unlicenced breeding will continue and the only hope there is is for the public, all the public, to not support them.

I will work with my Province to try and get something done - I certainly do not think you would discourage me or anyone from having this objective. You do things your way, I will do them my way - I will keep my mind open to see all that is happening, good and bad, and I certainly hope you will do the same.

ps if you do some research you will discover how many unwanted dogs have been adopted in the USA and in Canada through pet stores making space available for shelters, etc to use and providing staff to look assist in adoptions.

More research will tell you how few dogs are actually sold through pet stores in Canada. Example , a City in Metro Vancouver, population approximately 200,000 - total puppies sold through their pet stores in 2010 was less than 250 puppies - where did the rest come from for such a large population- direct from breeders through the internet , newspapers, magazines including Club magazines , etc. I counted recently in that City how many puppies were listed for sale in the local newspaper - there was 4 times the number in one weekend than sold through petstores in one year. I personally know many CKC breeders who openly admit that very few of their clients actually see thier facilities and they ship the puppies to the client. So many breeders do not live anywhere close to their clients. I have seen in front of my veterinarian, breeders bringing puppies in for their vaccinations and the clients meeting them in front of the vets office to "choose their puppy" after just receiving their first exam and vaccinations - you and I both know that is improper practice but it is not illegal.

I do not live in a fairy tale world where I can depend on voluntary adherence to unwritten standards - each breeder seems to have their own standards. I want to see the standards in law. I just want puppies to be bred humanely.

Obviously the problem is the breeding, not how they are sold - and breeders including CKC breeders are the source of the problem - lets deal with the source. Once that is done, then regulation of stores will happen from that - unfortuantely for puppies and the public, that is the only visible place which can be regulated as to sale and they are the smallest selling source of puppies. Set standards and enforce them through licencing and inspection.

I have given my opinion on the topic of breeding - nothing more for me to say - I will continue working to bring in licencing and breeding standards of breeders in my Province - if breeders do not like it, I do not care. I know for sure the puppies will appreciate it !

This will be my last post on this topic - I see there is at least one reader who is happy to have me shut up - to that person or persons, I am sorry my having an opinion bothers you - at least I have tried my best to make myself informed with an open mind and am prepared to listen to other peoples opinions, whether I agree or not.

To Gemy I hope one day over the next year or two to be able to say, BC has implemented a new Animal Care Act to cover breeding standards within this Province. It will be a slow process but I know it will happen.

[gemy]

I hope we meet one day too; it is refreshing to discuss issues, with ppl who have a different point of view.

I will continue to study the issues, as I'm sure you will, and I will continue to push in this province to ban the sales of puppies from the retail environment.

I would suggest if one's goal is to have the breeding of healthy animals producing healthy pups, then each breed club's health standards should be reviewed, for their efficacy.

I would also suggest that where profit is a motive, the well-being of dogs can be put at risk, as profit based entrepreneurs look for ways to improve their bottom line.

The abandonment of dogs at shelters, at rescues, is a compound problem, with many factors involved. Often times starting with the owner, who treats animals as disposable property; the dog is too old, too sick, can't or won't afford the health care, doesn't fit into my life anymore, can't be trained, etc, etc.

Another hamper to clearly seeing the problem, is the collection of reliable data. From all sources, be it pet stores, shelters, rescues, vets, etc.

The selling of dogs for companion animals and all the paraphenalia is a multi billion dollar industry. It is big business and when profit pressures happen (as they will) often times the health and wellbeing of the animal(s) suffer.

Go well, and I hope that one day another Yorkie will capture your heart.

[trin7]

Let me put this out there first - I don't like seeing ANY pet in a pet store. I used to raise Bengal cats and would never, ever sell to a pet store. There is no way you can screen new owners to see if they would be taking one of my babies forever, or just until they outgrew there 'cute stage'.

However, I am friends with the owner of a Petland in a small town and he has mixed breeds in his store. He gets them from local people, who I am sure do not belong to any organization. Sometimes he goes for a month or so without any puppies or kittens. From what I understand, these people who abandon their kittens and puppies at Petland are the same type that would bring their animals to a shelter. Only difference is there is more money involved. I will be very happy when pet stores go the way of many circuses and become animal free.

I have noticed that Petland has reduced the enclosures they have for kittens and puppies, so here's hoping there will be no more animals in Pet stores!!