I think we have a puppy mill dog
 

My ds and his gf (who had no right adopting a dog since they can barely take care of themselves) adopted a Yorkie about a year ago from a local pet store. For a variety of reasons, she has ended up spending most of her time with me. She is an example of what can happen. First of all they were ripped off for this dog...I think with financing and all they paid about $1800 and at $60 a month and over 20% interest they will be paying on her forever. I do not believe she is a good example either of a well bred Yorkie (though I am far from an expert). She has huge ears and her body of out of proportion. For that kind of money they could have gotten a superior animal. Worst of all, though is the emotional damage done to this dog...she had tremendous separation anxiety...like nothing Ive ever seen, and even when left home with my two dogs still cries like crazy when I leave her sight. She is the sweetest little thing and I love her so much (I think much more than ds and his gf), but she also has a tendency to be aggressive at times. I just think she is emotionally damaged. So far, physically she seems okay, though I think her breathing is weird but as cute as he is, she would be a hard dog to adopt out at a year old. This is all very minor, I guess, but this is one small example of a puppy mill, pet store animal.
Laura

A very interesting and educational thread. Until such time as governments bring in legislation to limit the number of dogs a breeder can have, ban the sale of animals through pet stores and pet brokers, puppymills will continue to exist. Purchasing animals from a pet store or broker guarantees the continued existence of these facilities. As for purchasing one directly from the puppymill breeder all too often you are doing so with the best of intentions but are ill prepared for what lies ahead over the next 15 years. HIGH VET BILLS and heartache. Any breeder with 30 dogs cannot possibly oversee those animals on a continued basis, consequently many health problems go unnoticed and untreated only to manifest themselves later at the new owners expense. It is for this reason that so many of these dogs end up in shelters and rescue societies. Pet store dogs are usually sold at a greatly reduced price from that which you pay to a reputable breeder. There is a reason for this, it is marketing for the masses. It comes time to have the dog's teeth cared for, hundreds of $$$ and the new owners cannot afford that cost. The dog is then abandoned or left to have it's teeth rot out of it's head.

The other thing that causes me great concern is breeders who undertake to provide their own vet care without proper training. ie giving the dogs their shots, docking their tails, neutering their males. Taking the puppies to a licenced vet for these things provides more than just getting shots etc the vet has the opportunity to provide a complete health exam. I for one would never purchase a dog from a breeder who does their own vet care, no matter how many champion show dogs they had produced.

Puppymills and mass breeders almost always provide their own vet care, to do otherwise cuts into the profit margin. Backyard breeders for the most part are no different.

I've spent 25 years working with the SPCA and have visited far more puppymill, backyard breeders than one heart should ever have to deal with. I've yet to come across even one that was able to adequately provide for the dogs.

We should be spending our time and energy on lobbying our respective governments to bring in legislation to eliminate these breeders. We also need legislation to stop the import of these animals. Many of the yorkies you currently see for sale through pet brokers are from south america.

SIGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
If I could take some of you guys and show you a REAL PuppyMIll you would never forget it. Forget 50 or 100 dogs.... I can show you 500 to 1000 and more...sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I could show you quite a few like this and break your hearts.

True mills are terrible! I also have seen big breeders with maybe a hundred who were clean, neat healthy and truly caring. Believe me there is a world of difference in a mill and a big breeder. :animal36

I know that's your personal opinion, but there are many members here with happy, healthy, well-socialized, and adjusted dogs and they got them for $500 or less. I don't think price is an issue either way (either very low-priced or high-priced), and a person should be able to choose to pay as little, or as much as they want for a Yorkie.

I do think that it's more important to visit the breeder and see the conditions yourself. If a breeder chooses to sell a dog for $500, it might not necessarily mean they treat the dog any worse than someone who sells their dog for $2000. Also, there are areas of the country where dogs are cheaper than the "average" going price.

There's also more information on puppymills at our sister site, MillBusters, at:

http://www.millbusters.com

There are some rather graphic images there of real puppymills, these pictures are not Photoshopped or made up in any way. It's rather disturbing and sick to see.

Agreed. Stewie was less than $500 and he is a very nice pooch. People would be so lucky as to get a dog as good as Stewie for the price I paid.

Kim, I honestly think you're stepping on glass with this comment. I do understand that it is your personal opinion but there are a lot of us who cannot afford to pay $2,000 for a Yorkie. I paid $400 for Fred. He never had a problem in his life. He is in perfect condition (except for his nappiness, which was a mistake on my part). He never had a hypoglycemic reaction, he didn't cry when we brought him home the first night. No kennel cough, no anything. He is in tip-top shape and I know for a fact that Fred is a lot more healthier than some of those who paid top price for their Yorkies.
All-in-all, I don't think he lacked care from his breeder or that she was losing any money out of it. More often than not, people of course will add more weight to the price for profit but some breeders (who sell pet quality puppies) may inflate the price more than others. My breeder specifically told me that she also would not want to pay in the thousands for a Yorkie puppy. She started breeding herself so that others who want a great Yorkie will have the luxury of owning one, too.
There is a way for a $500 puppy to get the great care it needs. And you can trust me on that one.

I was primarily referring to my area...California... when I made the $500 comment, but my basic point is, I think people should be more willing to pay a "fair" price for a dog instead of trying to get one cheaply and basically cheating the breeder of being fairly compensated for the 24/7 care they have had to provide the puppies and the mother. They need to expect to pay at least the cost of the puppies care to that point so the breeder at least doesn't lose money.

I think if people were more willing to pay the fair price, there would be more breeders providing the very best care that these dogs deserve. No one wants a puppy who hasn't had the very best care and whose litter mates and mother are not well provided for. We want our puppies and their families to have the best possible start in life. But, if you are looking for a yorkie for less than $500 you are looking for someone who hasn't put that much into the dog or you expect the breeder to lose money on the dog and, imo, that is not fair.

I have talked to a lot of breeders and even did a poll on here and discovered that it costs at least that much and usually way more to raise a puppy to 12 weeks of age in a healthy, well cared for way.

I know what a great dog Stewie is and he is healthy and well adjusted. You got a great deal on him.

My point is that the breeder should have spent at least $500 to raise him for you according to the calculations of the breeders we respect on here, so the breeder either lost money on the deal, or maybe broke even if she provided him, his litter mates and his mother proper care.

I am not pointing a finger at anyone on here who got a deal on their yorkie but I just feel we need to more fairly compensate the breeders for the job they do. I know I wouldn't do it for any amount of money and most of us who have read the stories and lived through the deliveries via the internet, the ceasareans, etc, understand only SOME of what these courageous people go through. Yorkies are a difficult breed to breed and the puppies are valuable as we all know so high prices shouldn't be a shock as they seem to be on here. JMHO as always.

That is great Natalie that you found a breeder who was altruistic enough and wealthy enough to breed simply to provide yorkies to those who couldn't afford them otherwise. I hope there are a lot of breeders like that out there. I would bet they are few and far between because it is a hard job and later if a puppy does develop a problem the new owners who only paid $500 for the puppy want the breeder to pay all the vet bills even when it was nothing the breeder could have prevented. This story is all too common and hear them on here everyday.

There is liability for the breeder especially in States with Puppy Lemon Laws. Just like human babies, some puppies are less healthy than others and need medical care. It is not always genetic or detectible.

Anyway...in an attempt to get this thread back on topic and answer Brett's question here is a link to an internet site that tries to answer this question

Just What is a Puppymill?

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/puppymil.html

500 dollars
 

as a breeder i dont see how anyone could raise puppies for that price let me see if i can break it down ....
one bitch of breed quaility min 1500 one stud 1500
heath check on bitch W blood pannels 80 stud 80
dog food for one breeding pair per year of decent not high quaility lets see 20 dollar a month for 12 months perhaps cheeper so lets say min 150 and if you get just a few treats another 50 so what are we at 3,390
vet checks shots wormer (i do my own shots after years of helping my vet) so two seven way two rabies and wormer for two 80 x2 160+ 3,390
whops forgot about teeth cleaning and grooming ..and even if you brush your dogs teeth and groom for yourself you shold get you dogs teeth cleaned IMHO 80 dollars and thats only if you have the grooming brushes already
so now your brood bitch is breed you have to buy supplements and feed puppie food, sonogram and preg checkup
now lets get to tail docking i wont consider people who do it them self *eak*
150 for that visit and 30 dollars for sonogram 60 for reg checkup
3,390+160+80 +150+30+60 i do three puppie check ups with one blood pannel but lets keep it easy and do one check up with blood pannle
80 dollars 3,390+160+80 +150+30+60 so for people who do the this at least
its about 4,000 dollars there was no xrays or health issues no unknow issues to arise no 800 dollar c-section and i didnt add any toys to help puppies develop babie blankets disenfectent and whelping items some litter i do make money but usually the following litter will suck it dry
I am glad that your 500 dollar babies are health i just dont see how anyone can raise a litter for that price If someone can teach me how i would love it ! did i mention no sleep for the breeder

But if a breeder feels that they CAN charge $500 and they are happy with that, that alone does not make them a bad breeder. There are some breeders that do it for love of the breed, and don't think of it as a money-making enterprise. I don't think they should be penalized in that aspect, I would think that visiting such a breeder would give you an idea of what kind of person they are. That said, I'm sure there are plenty of breeders that sell Yorkies for $500 that DON'T properly take care of their Yorkies to the satisfaction of an average Yorkie owner. But price alone shouldn't automatically qualify a breeder as bad or not giving enough care for their Yorkie litter. We live in a free market, where people are allowed to price Yorkies at whatever they would like, from free to $25,000. If you want to "tip" your Yorkie breeder, or give them more than they are asking, I doubt they would refuse that money. Breeders that price their Yorkies at $500 probably feel that $500 is enough to fairly compensate them for their time and effort in raising that Yorkie, otherwise they would set the price at another level.

As far as what a puppymill is, there is no one definition that everyone would agree to. Some people may say a breeder with 12 dogs would be a mill, some people think it has to be over 25. It's clearly subjective, but almost all people would agree that if you have hundreds of dogs in one kennel, that would be considered a puppymill. Others may look at conditions more than the sheer number of dogs at a location to determine whether it's a puppymill. I personally think everyone should have their own definition of what a puppymill is, as there are many variables and aspects to consider.

puppie mill
 

http://www.millbusters.com/puppymill/index.html
here is a great page on what a puppie mill is

Thank you for posting that information Yorkie Mama. If people are paying $500 for a yorkie they are paying for one that has not had the best possible care and attention. That is not to say they are getting an inferior dog but they should know they are getting what they pay for. I've been there, done that. If you purchase a dog for $500.00 you will not be getting a health certificate with it and your first action should be to take the dog to your vet for a complete check. If you cannot afford to pay $1,000.00 for your dog how pray tell can you afford the vet bills that follow? It is a false economy of savings and one that buyers should not be lured into.