Actually that one club submitted samples to the MARS company for testing. The test is only 85% accurate on the first generation and decreases greatly from there. The testing only goes back 3 generations...and the genetic marker differences are very subtle beyond 1st generation in all breeds. The company has genetic markers for 134 AKC recognized breeds. I have an email from a MARS representive with states...the testing is not advanced enough to determine accurately the genetic make up.

The MARS test was able to separate Biewers from Yorkies. There is a difference.

Establishing a separate breed takes patience, hard work, testing, cooperation, standards, and even mistakes. The Biewer is a work-in-progress. It differs from the tri-color yorkie, because of the color placement defined in the standard.

I def agree!!!!!

The argument about Biewers, particolour, golds, chocolates, blueborn has gone around so many times.
Personally if the Biewer Terrier breeders ( not Yorkie) want to go through all the hoops and many years to have them truely recognized by valid registries and kennel clubs no one will object.
As for promoting wrong colour Yorkies, I am sure it is noted that reputable long time show breeders do not promote, sell nor breed them. True fanciers of any purebred breed will not do anything to compromise the integrity of their chosen breed.
I have friends that have been in Yorkies 30+ years odd they have never had a tri colour yorkie or a gold born one for that matter.

The DNA tests by AKC can only tell you that the parents are, in fact, the parents of that litter. It cant tell you the damage that has been done in the past, before DNa and kennel inspections, by the introduction of other breeds to create the parti gene in Yokries. This is very easy to do. Before there were inspections and Dna testing, it was easy to register any mix as an AKC dog. This was done all the time with bybrs and mills and people out for the $$$. AKC has no choice but to register these odd ball colors.

:thumbup::yeahthat:

Absolutely correct, that is all those Dna tests do verify that the parents are who the papers say they are - NOW. Not generations back as the technology wasn't there.
Now if the parentage of a pup is in question, DNA samples of sire, dam and progeny can be submitted but all it will tell you is that those are the parents or if there was something amiss, that one or both likely is not the parent(s).
In very recent years, a few have been caught and registrations cancelled as a result, not per se because it was actually a mix although in some cases that could be the case, but cancelled the registration because the parents on the registration for the progeny were found to be unlikely the parents.

Thank you for mentioning this. I have brought up this same point time and time again. I think that people hear "AKC does DNA tests" and they get a false sense of security and do not fully understand what that actually means. It does not ensure that you have a pure Yorkie, it only ensures who the parents are.

There are a number of different Biewer clubs, and their rules and standards seem to differ from one club to the next. It would be to the Biewers benefit to be determined as not being purebred yorkies. I believe one of requirements with AKC to allow a new breed into the registry, is that the new dog breed must have several different breeds making up the new breed? The mars test showed that the biewers tested, were made up of several breeds ... but the test also states that it is not made to test pure bred breeds (why? does it not correctly show that a pure bred is a purebred?)
The test is still realitivly new so at this point I'm not sure I hold a whole lot of faith in the testing.

Well, I beg to differ with you. I have seen golden born yorkies, out of and by AKC parents ... these pups are clearly born in shades of tan through rich gold, with clear coats and no saddles - they look like yorkies as pups and as adults.

Yorkie Valley

Chocolates are no more prone to health and skin conditions than traditional colored yorkies are ... it's the blue born yorkies who have health and skin problems.

You can see golden born yorkies out of aKC registered parents as there was no DNA tests in the past that would prove dogs in the pedigrees were the actual sire and dam. Too late now as where the gold likely first turned up are no longer around.
There is no solid gold in yorkies born that colour. If they were clear coats with no saddles then they definitely are not a purebred.
Off colours caused by recessive genes such as the chocolate is pretty much always going to be health issue.

sickening. the "perfect yorkie" is simply a pigment of their imagination. everyone thinks their yorkie is perfect regardless of color... who cares?

Could you please elaborate on what health problems are known to be a direct result of a yorkie puppy being born chocolate or parti colored?
As a past owner/breeder of the Chocolate and tan and parti variety of American Cocker Spaniels...I find this statement very interesting. As neither of these recessive genes in the Cocker Spaniel caused any color related health problems that I can recall.
Do these recessive genes affect the yorkie differently because of the dilution gene that turns the yorkie from black to blue?

Yes, I would also like to know the health problems that parti and chocolate yorkies have that Lorraine is speaking of? If she's referring to the information posted on the YTCA's website about the health problems associated with off colors, than those problems listed are the problems of blue born yorkies not the other off colors (even though the website is vague and is left to be interrupted that all off colors are prone to these problems - which is untrue)

In order to declare with certainty that the off colored dogs--be they Yorkies or any other breed--are not prone to health issues not found in the standard colored dog, wouldn't there have to be alot of long term, carefully documented research and observation on them for several generations? (Blue borns aside.) And with numberous lines? Seems to me that at this point, that claim cannot be indisputably determined, one way or the other....

Actually there are a number of breeds with deafness considered related to merle and pie bald genes. Yorkies are not listed within this group...but it can affect any dog with white coloring. I have read great dane breeders are adament about not including parti colored dogs in any breeding program.

Genetics of Deafness in Dogs\


Btw, I learned this information by searching for how many other breeds produce parti colored puppies.

Maybe because there has not been enough documented research with the Yorkies?

The Nikkos line of parti's have been producing for 10 years and there are at least 4 and 5 generations of parti's, looking through my pedigrees. I only have 3 generations of parti color, on my outcross line. At this time, I've heard of no parti, chocolate or golden line having any health problems or being at greater risk of health problems, than what we see in the traditional colored yorkies.

How many different lines, aside from your own, of indisputable origin, have you heard of that have done such extensive research and studying of the results. How many 3rd, 4th generation lines of parties or colored-yorkies?
I'm not claiming it to be fact, just that at this point there hasn't been enough long term research done to either prove or disprove the claim.

Excellent Post... :clapsmile

I don't know how many different parti lines there are at this time but so far, with the help of other parti breeders, the lines that I am aware of including the Nikkos lines, are all tracing back to one dog. I recently traced my outcross parti to this same dog as well, 12 generations back - my outcross has no Nikkos in his background but this one particular dog in question is also Nikkos Rolls Royce Ashley's great great grand sire. I've found several other lines, that don't have any Nikkos breeding but they have the same common denominator going 8 or 9 generations back to this one dog.

So are these parti's from different lines or are they from the same line, through this one dog that keeps popping up in parti pedigrees (often showing up multiple times)? None of the lines that I know of, are producing deaf, blind or unhealthy offspring.

What many may not be aware of is that in addition to AKC extensively DNA'ing the Nikkos parti line in the late 90's, they also spoke with a number of old time breeders (breeders from the 1920's - 1980's era) about off colors being born in their litters. From what I'm told, one breeder in particular told AKC that they had had more parti's than the Nikkos breeders but that they "got rid" of them. This just happens to be the same breeder who's dog is continuously seen in the parti lines today.

If this dog (born almost 50 years ago) is the common link where the parti gene is coming from, than you can throw away your theories that "no reputable breeder has ever produced a parti" ... of course, I tend to believe that the genes have been hidden in some of our dogs since the beginning of the breed so that may explain how one champion dog continues to show up in many, if not all of the parti pedigrees.

As for other off colors, I have heard of no golden or chocolate issues either but haven't studied theses colors extensively myself.

The biewer terrier has just been proven they are their own breed, they are trying very hard to get AKC to recognize them as their own breed..We just keep hoping one day they will.

The Yorkshire does carry the piebald gene. The AKC has established that fact through research.

Anyone who researches the history will discover that for themselves.

If they were not pure yorkies, the YTCA would have no say over them what-so-ever. The fact that they address the issue is proof that they do believe that they are yorkies.

The statments on the YTCA site are very confusing. On one hand they say they are not yorkies, and then they turn around and address it as a color fault. Well Which is it? The also bring up how much money is being charged for the parti colored yorkies.. If thery are not yhorkies then why do they address theat?

The AKC has interviewed old time breeders and has statemets from then stating that parti colored pups have been showing up in their litters forever. They either destroyed the pups or gave them away to keep the YTCA from finding out.

At this point there is nothing to back up that information. There are old parti colored yorkies that are still alive and well. However the color has not been recognized long enough to prove that claim one way or another.

Lorraine, I think I read that not All Biewers tested as non yorkies. Some of the lines test differently. Some of the Biewers do not turn gold/tan in the face, they remain black.

I'm also sure that not all lines of partis are pure. As far as I know only one line was DNA'd so I'm sure there are knock-offs out there.

My advice for anyone wanting to purchase a parti, is to make sure you know the line that you are buying from.

You are absolutely correct. It also cannot tell you when the piebald gene was introduced. So in examing all the paintings and records from the time period when the yorkie was being established you will see that some of the breeds that were used to extablish the yorkie were spotted with white.

Although it seems that all lines of yorkies go back to Hodderfields Ben, that does not mean that all of today's lines carry the piebald gene.e It could have been dropped from some of the lines.

LOL Very well put.

Not all of the lines are testing that way. I believe that the true Biewer line is still testing to be yorkie.

Some of the Biewer breeders are trying to establish their own breed. Others still claim they are yorkies.

There are so many different Biewer clubs, it is hard to keep them straight.

Jeanie

Where'd everyone go ... musta been something we said???? :questione :questione :questione

go to this site.. Biewer Terrier Club of America, Inc. if you go to the bottom, watch the little zoo tube video..
By the way, the little girl on that video is now, my littel baby:rolleyes:

Probably a bunch of people tired of having the same argument over and over again. :rolleyes: