Gentle Leader Harness

[cesar49]

Originally Posted by megansmomma

Does anyone use the gentle leader for their furbaby? Pebbles pulls horribly when she goes for walks and the vet suggested it for her. I purchased one and have been using it and it works so well for her. She's was instantly a walking not pulling and she even sat down prior to crossing the street. But I am wondering if how it fits will cause problems with the trachea.

i just bought one and it comes with the dvd.. the fit is VERY important from what i read so far.. about to try it

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by megansmomma

Does anyone use the gentle leader for their furbaby? Pebbles pulls horribly when she goes for walks and the vet suggested it for her. I purchased one and have been using it and it works so well for her. She's was instantly a walking not pulling and she even sat down prior to crossing the street. But I am wondering if how it fits will cause problems with the trachea.

I was given one this year at the PABA confrence at Guelph Universtiy this year. If you are talking about the body harness that is.

I have worked a gentle leader head harness a long time and they work well but should be used a a short term tool to fix a long term problem. Unless your working an aggressive dog and have a contract with your behaviour person that it is a life thing.
Some dogs have a bad reaction to them and thier mood changes in and out of a head harness and one should help them desensitize to them before using not just stick on on it face.
But they work most times although I have seen a dog pulling like a mac truck in one and just shook my head.

If your talking about a body harness yeah not going to help much and not great for long hair.

JL

[YorkieMother]

Here is something I tracked down knowing that there is the other side of this product that goes under mentioned and it great to get both sides of it.
Like any tools used there are good and bad points here the bad.

A Not So Gentle Leader

I am not saying use or not use just you need all the info to make and educated choice.

One other thought is it for aggression or just pulling. Ok I know pulling is bad enongh 9 pound former frieght train owner here but we can work pulling without a head halter there are some great things that can be tried.

JL

[megansmomma]

My experience with the Gentle Leader is very positive. Pebbles would pull so much when I walked her that it just wasn't worth the effort. I started in the driveway with a pocket of treats and within no time she was walking very nicely up and down the driveway. I was very impressed with the improvement when we finally started walking with her. She does try to rub her face in the grass when she has it on but I just keep moving and telling her good girl and this usually works well.

I'm not sure about the idea that you can eventually switch to the regular harness because I have tried and she is right back to pulling. I'm also not sure about letting them wear it in the house since the principle of its use is to lead them like a horse in a halter. So if you just put in on their head and let them walk around it really has no purpose. The leash is attached on the underside of their mouth and then dangles below their jaw, so there is no tension but when you GENTLY move the leash in whatever direction you are moving their nose and then head will follow. If there is no leash attached there really is no point in keeping it on.

You need to put it on pretty tight around their head for it to work properly almost to the point you are thinking it is too tight but this is the correct way to use it Do not try to use it without reading all the directions. When I made the adjustments I cut off the excess so there was nothing dangling on the side of her head and then wicked the end with a lighter
~of course not while she was wearing it.

When I walk her now, she will sit at every corner, walk nicely w/o pulling with slack in the leash and she does ignore the other dogs which was a problem before. Let me clarify about other dogs, what it does is keeps them focused on walking so when there is another dog or other distraction I will just keep walking and so will she~does that make sense? It's not a punishment and does not hurt then at all. Pebbles is on the larger end of 11 to 12 lbs and I originally purchased a small but returned it for the XSMALL. I'm not sure how it would work from a very small yorkie since Pebbles' GL is adjusted to the smallest it will go. I would recommend purchasing the tan since it will blend in to their coat.

I hope this is helpful.

[megansmomma]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

Here is something I tracked down knowing that there is the other side of this product that goes under mentioned and it great to get both sides of it.
Like any tools used there are good and bad points here the bad.

A Not So Gentle Leader

I am not saying use or not use just you need all the info to make and educated choice.

One other thought is it for aggression or just pulling. Ok I know pulling is bad enongh 9 pound former frieght train owner here but we can work pulling without a head halter there are some great things that can be tried.

JL

I just read the link you posted and I would agree with some of the points but it is a little misleading in the fact is was pulled from a dog training website. The author is trying to sell is training so of course he would not advocate using this collar. If you could solve your pulling issue with a $20 collar why would you need his course?

I would never leave this on my dog 18 hours a day. We use it for walks and that is all. I could see how their would be issue with skin irritations since it is on the dog's head very snugly and left on 18 hours a day it would cause irritation. Which brings me to the point that it is not effective if not worn snugly which in turn would allow the dog to bolt and possibly hurt himself. It sounds to me like one issue follows the next and like just about anything else for it to work properly it must be used properly. IMO

[Erin]

Loki is 12 pounds and he has the small size. The size is fine, there was just lots of extra webbing after it was adjusted so I cut it off and melted the edge of the webbing with a candle to stop it from fraying.

It *does* help with barking and such because the wrap around the muzzle is kind of like a calming signal for dogs. It works for Loki in stressful situations and I've seen it work on crazy big dogs who suddenly behave when their GL is on. It doesn't solve the problem, but it does help. If your dog doesn't have any anxiety issues I would recommend the Easy Walk harness instead.

Here's the thing, if you are just teaching walking on a leash then you don't have to use it forever. If your dog can't deal with having it on (constant pawing, etc.) then try the Easy Walk harness. Either way, you have to teach them to stop pulling but these tools make it easier. I still use Loki's Easy Walk because I like how it fits him. I only use his GL in stressful situations which we try to avoid anyway, but it's still nice to have.

If you have no idea what these things are I have pictures on my website. I have some GL's (just in size small) and all sizes of easy walk harness. The petite is TINY, like too small for Sammy who is barely 6 lbs. So that's why we have the in-between sizes.

Hope that helps! Let me know if anyone has any questions. I've used these on my dogs and on other people's dogs in training classes and on unruly neighbor dogs

[megansmomma]

Originally Posted by Erin

Loki is 12 pounds and he has the small size. The size is fine, there was just lots of extra webbing after it was adjusted so I cut it off and melted the edge of the webbing with a candle to stop it from fraying.

It *does* help with barking and such because the wrap around the muzzle is kind of like a calming signal for dogs. It works for Loki in stressful situations and I've seen it work on crazy big dogs who suddenly behave when their GL is on. It doesn't solve the problem, but it does help. If your dog doesn't have any anxiety issues I would recommend the Easy Walk harness instead.

Here's the thing, if you are just teaching walking on a leash then you don't have to use it forever. If your dog can't deal with having it on (constant pawing, etc.) then try the Easy Walk harness. Either way, you have to teach them to stop pulling but these tools make it easier. I still use Loki's Easy Walk because I like how it fits him. I only use his GL in stressful situations which we try to avoid anyway, but it's still nice to have.

If you have no idea what these things are I have pictures on my website. I have some GL's (just in size small) and all sizes of easy walk harness. The petite is TINY, like too small for Sammy who is barely 6 lbs. So that's why we have the in-between sizes.

Hope that helps! Let me know if anyone has any questions. I've used these on my dogs and on other people's dogs in training classes and on unruly neighbor dogs

Maybe Pebbles has an exceptionally small head

[Erin]

Originally Posted by megansmomma

Maybe Pebbles has an exceptionally small head

Heehee... Oh who knows. I'm buying clothes for these guys for winter and I hate the size charts because no matter what my guys are in between and I don't know which size to get. Most people probably wouldn't go to the effort of "fixing" the harness either like me, I'm just a dork

Honestly, I LOVE Premier (the company that makes all of this stuff) but I wonder if these were developed for large dogs and then just sized down without thinking about the differences of toy-sized dogs. Their products work but sometimes take some tweaking to use with our little doggies.

For example: I ordered Easy Walk harnesses in the smaller webbing for my site because the 1/2 inch is too thick for a 6lb dog. I explained this to them and they let me order them in custom sizes. It's MUCH more comfortable this way. So, they are really nice but like I said, tweaking required.

[megansmomma]

Originally Posted by Erin

Heehee... Oh who knows. I'm buying clothes for these guys for winter and I hate the size charts because no matter what my guys are in between and I don't know which size to get. Most people probably wouldn't go to the effort of "fixing" the harness either like me, I'm just a dork

Honestly, I LOVE Premier (the company that makes all of this stuff) but I wonder if these were developed for large dogs and then just sized down without thinking about the differences of toy-sized dogs. Their products work but sometimes take some tweaking to use with our little doggies.

For example: I ordered Easy Walk harnesses in the smaller webbing for my site because the 1/2 inch is too thick for a 6lb dog. I explained this to them and they let me order them in custom sizes. It's MUCH more comfortable this way. So, they are really nice but like I said, tweaking required.

The webbing on the small seemed very wide to me on the GL now that you mention it. The small says 5 to 20 (?) lbs but there is a huge difference in size from a 5 or 6 lber to a 20 lb dog.
They should make the smaller webbing for 5 to 12 lbs or so and then larger webbing for up to 20 lbs.

I just notice we both live in the Chicago suburbs!

[Ellie May]

Well, seeing all these good reviews, I guess I will give the other side of it.
I hated it for Ellie.

It "might' be okay for larger dogs but I even know of one who got a raw nose from the loop, so not so sure about that.

Anyway, bought it, watched DVD and put it on Ellie. Putting it on just right is very important and if it is done right, it should be very tight but not on an area of the neck that has anything to do with choking/throat/trachea... I was very uncomfortable with how tight it was (I don't care if it isn't going to choke..it is still her neck). Then when the dog pulled their head is pulled toward you. Fine if it is done right but it seems that that could cause problems/injury if you're not careful.

So, just get it from a place that you can return it and decide for yourself.

[alaskayorkie]

I definitely agree with all the cautions delivered here. You have to be careful with them, and their success depends in a certain degree on how your dog reacts to it. If he or she continues to pull, pull, pull, then you might need another solution.

I guess I should try mine out on Eddie before I spout off any more advice.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by megansmomma

I just read the link you posted and I would agree with some of the points but it is a little misleading in the fact is was pulled from a dog training website. The author is trying to sell is training so of course he would not advocate using this collar. If you could solve your pulling issue with a $20 collar why would you need his course?
. IMO

I was aware of that but there is a little concern with the use of them with necks getting hurt.... even Gentle leader has come out with a body harness for those dogs that could have a problem.
Sadly my main access to these concerns I am not allowed to cross post or direct attention to until the work is done.

It always good to know both sides.

JL

[Morkie4]

Toby had aggression issues and so I took him to Obedience classes and the trainer recommended that I use to gentle leader to keep any accidental bitings with other dogs. It worked great but did mess up his muzzle hair when used to correct (Toby is in full coat). We used the gentle leader for Basic Obedience and for most of Obedience 1 class. But he still was being aggressive and growling with other dogs in the class.

We moved Toby to the pinch collar and he only needed on correction and he never growled or looked at another dog in class aggressively. So while the gentle leader will help with walk/pulling.....it does not correct aggression.

I can tell you that Toby is now in Obedience 2 and I am working him off leash the full hour among dogs like a Dobie, German Shepherd, Collie and some other large breed mixed dogs. He does not make any aggressive moves or growls toward other dogs in the class. The gentle leader helped with control and the pinch collar worked for the aggression.

Bottom line I recommend the gentle leader for walks.JMHO

[Ashley V]

Originally Posted by Morkie4

Toby had aggression issues and so I took him to Obedience classes and the trainer recommended that I use to gentle leader to keep any accidental bitings with other dogs. It worked great but did mess up his muzzle hair when used to correct (Toby is in full coat). We used the gentle leader for Basic Obedience and for most of Obedience 1 class. But he still was being aggressive and growling with other dogs in the class.

We moved Toby to the pinch collar and he only needed on correction and he never growled or looked at another dog in class aggressively. So while the gentle leader will help with walk/pulling.....it does not correct aggression.

I can tell you that Toby is now in Obedience 2 and I am working him off leash the full hour among dogs like a Dobie, German Shepherd, Collie and some other large breed mixed dogs. He does not make any aggressive moves or growls toward other dogs in the class. The gentle leader helped with control and the pinch collar worked for the aggression.

Bottom line I recommend the gentle leader for walks.JMHO

This is totally OT, but I Toby looks so beautiful in your avatar. I just love him! lol

[YorkieMother]

Pinch collar hold a boat load of concerns on a whole seprate level from a gentle leader. Pinch collars do not correct aggression it is a tool a means to and end. Aggresion in it true from is never fixed it is managed. Barking and growling is more lack of skill in the social department or fear and a pinch teaches them once and for all that your going to get hurt by it if you do something your owner feels is wrong.. Which is noramal doggy behaviour.

That said it true that if appiled once in the correct manner your not going to need it again but that once do a great deal of damage. Glad it worked.

Just like a gentle leader should be used for a short term while training the behaviour you do want.
You slap a gentle leader on a dog and think it is going to cure aggression without working a program it not and it will not stop pulling either without work.

JL

Here when it does not. International Positive Dog Training Association

Title: Pinch (Prong) Collars


Body: Tool: Pinch or Prong Collar


Rating: Unacceptable due to high risk for misuse and/or abuse

Operant Sequence:

Positive Punishment - adding the pinch to decrease the likelihood that the behaviour will be repeated. ie: pulling on the pinch collar to stop the dog from pulling on leash.
Negative Reinforcement - ending the pinch to increase the likelihood that the behaviour will be repeated. ie: ending the pinch to keep the dog in heel position (avoidance conditioning).

Use of Tool: Powerful Aversive

Proper Application: The pinch collar is opened by removing one link, then wrapped around the dog’s neck. It is then fastened by replacing the missing link. The collar should fit with the prongs facing the neck, snug enough for the prongs to lightly touch but not push into the skin. When the leash is pulled or tightens, the prongs push against the skin and muscles of the neck causing physical discomfort or pain. Unlike the choke chain and slip collar, the pinch collar has limited constriction. It takes minimal effort to create a powerful correction.

Parameters:

Timing of the correction must be exact for the dog to realize which behaviour will predict the correction.

The severity of the correction must match the dog’s level of sensitivity.

The dog must be taught the desired behaviour before being corrected for the undesirable behaviour.

Benefits:

Has limited constriction.

Takes little effort for handlers with limited strength.

Distributes even pressure around the neck.

Takes less skill to use than some other collars.

Drawbacks, Risks and Warnings:

Physical

The metal prongs allow for a high potential for causing pain and/or physical injury.

Has been known to cause irritation, wounds and infection.

If the collar is left on the dog when not supervised, the dog can become caught by the collar and can injure itself, cause de-gloving of the skin on the neck and head, cause strangulation and even death.

If two dogs are playing together, the dog’s jaw can become caught in the chain causing injury to one or both dogs.

If the dog hits the end of the leash, life line or retractable leash with any force it can cause injury.

If positioned too close to the ears, the correction will affect the sensitive nerve bundles just below the dog’s ears.

Behavioural

Pinch collars have been known to cause fear, submission, aggression, stress, depression and avoidance behaviours.

The anxiety caused by the correction can increase aggressive behaviour, the severity and frequency of aggressive episodes.

Psychological

Unwanted associations may be created if the dog pairs up the unpleasant experience with someone or something in the environment at the moment it is shocked. For example; if the dog is focused on a child when corrected, it may create an unpleasant association with children. This association can cause fear of the child which could lead to fear aggression.

The unpleasant experience can create fear and distrust of the handler.

The unpleasant experience can create fear and distrust of anyone or anything in the environment.

In order to effectively stop an unwanted behaviour with as few corrections as possible, the dog’s temperament and level of sensitivity must be known. Because there is no way to know how sensitive the dog is to the physical correction without correcting it, the risk of making a mistake is high. If you start too high and work your way down you can create fear and/or aggression, if you start too low and work your way up you can desensitize the dog to the correction and/or cause habituation; which is the ability to stop reacting to meaningless stimuli through repeat exposure. R1 When this happens you will require higher and higher levels of correction to stop the unwanted behaviour. Therefore, finding the correct intensity of correction risks causing pain, physical harm, damaging the dog’s temperament and/or creating new behaviour problems.

The unpleasant experience can cause stress, anxiety, and/or depression, leading to other behavior issues and/or the inability to learn.

Limitations:

Goals must be achieved with as few corrections as possible.

Excellent timing is essential for the dog to associate the correction with the unwanted behaviour.

Since it takes very little strength to deliver a severe correction, the risk for misuse and abuse is high.

Because human behaviour is often affected by emotions, there is a risk of bad judgement and/or timing on part of the handler.

The dog may not be able to feel the correction if there is too much hair between the prongs and the skin.

This tool can only be effective once the dog understands the desired response.

Links have been known to come loose resulting in an escaped dog.

Putting the collar on the dog requires strength and good vision.

If the collar is too loose, contact will be concentrated on one particular area which can result in too much pressure to one spot on the dog’s neck.

If the collar is too tight it can cause non-stop pain and/or discomfort.

The pinch collar can only be used during supervised training.

The size of the links must be appropriate to the size of the dog.

Viable Alternatives

A suitable, well-fitting head halter (ie: Gentle Leader)

Counter-conditioning

Obedience training

Systematic desensitization

Negative Punishment - Remove something pleasant to decrease a behaviour

Positive Punishment - Add something unpleasant to decrease a behaviour (Extremely Limited - ie; "Ah Ah" - must not cause fear or pain)

Negative Reinforcement - Remove something unpleasant to increase a behaviour (Extremely Limited - ie; "Ah Ah" - must not cause fear or pain)

Positive Reinforcement - Add something pleasant to increase a behaviour

Interrupt and redirect

Create a reliable “on-off” switch to put the behaviour on cue

Creating other acceptable outlets for the unwanted behaviour

Environmental management to prevent the unwanted behaviour from occurring

References:
R1 - “Habituation” - Excel-lerated Learning, Pamela J Reid Ph.D., James & Kenneth Publishers 1996 Page 37-38