idk..but to me i think that saving any dog from a shelter is easier said than done. i have saved 3 dogs so far from shelters, and when i had to give them up i did not give them back to the shelter i gave them to loving homes where i knew that they would be very well taken cared of. why? because i wanted them to have a good happy life with a family. when i was first looking for a pet my first thought was a shelter, no if's and's or but's about it, but in my search for a pet through a shelter, i found it to be very difficult, because alot of the dogs weren't really kid friendly, or they were very timid due to being mistreated, and i wasn't qualified to give these dogs the training that they need to overcome this. alot of the shelters wouldn't let me adopt because i had 2 children wich was very heartbreaking for me. eventually i did find my pet but it took me a lot of time and alot of searching(driving everywhere). we had chi-chi(a pekinese) for 1 yr with missy and elli(maltese). missy and elli were trained very well, chi chi on the other hand was a runner and as much as we worked with her she just would not stay in our yard,she wasn't potty trained either and she just would not break the habbit. no matter how much we praised her and tried to teach her. our vet told us that sometimes when you adopt a dog you have no idea about the history of the dog and so fourth. so it makes it very difficult. i have nothing against adopting from shelters as you can see, but i do feel that it's okay if someone chooses to go out and buy a dog wether it be mixed breed or not from a good breeder, and pay what they feel is fair, as opposed to adopting. to ensure that they know exactly what they are getting as far as history goes. jmho with my experience.

I have nothing against mixed breeds, they've been around since the beginning of time. I've owned some myself over the years, although all of mine were adopted from the pound or SPCA or dragged in off the street. I sure as heck wasn't about to part with thousands of dollars to buy one.

In my opinion, humble as it may be, the only reason you have a market to sell to is because of the hype and false advertising with respect to these designer breeds. Otherwise they would be known as what they are, mixed breeds and people would pay what they are worth. But no, breeders like yourself and so many others are desperately trying to convince the general public that somehow you have been able to do what nature could not, isolate only the "good" characteristics of each breed and produce a better dog. Now we all know that's darn near impossible. Truth is you are breeding strictly for profit. I don't necessarily have a problem with someone making an honest dollar either. Key word "honest". There is nothing honest about trying to fool people into believing that somehow your crossed breeds are as good as a purebred. In fact if I read your post correctly you are trying to imply that your breeds are better. Now that I do have a problem with.

I've been to your website, I've read all your hype, all of which is designed specifically to lure the poor uneducated consumer. Fine that's your right but please don't try to BS those of us who know the difference.

Personally I'll jump for joy if what you say about the yorkshire terrier losing popularity is true. Perhaps then breeders like you will leave the breed alone and move on to the next flavour of the month. Perhaps next you'll breed a porkie with pug and get a porkiepug, or a chorkie with a minpin and get a chorkiepin, and you can sell advertise them as true blue mutts. That would at least be somewhat honest advertising instead of the out and out falsehoods you are presently spreading.

Very well said. I Also understand that our Morkies are prices High, but to us you will be getting a dog of a quality you are paying for. We are also honest, one of our puppies had a condition (YORKIE BY THE WAY) (not hereditary) nothign life threatning and only temporary as a puppy, (clear liquid coming out of nostrils) our 3 vets examined the puppy and all came to the conclusion that the puppy's nose was too short for the (parts) inside therefor twisting and causing water to stay. We told the person interested in that puppy (A YORKIE) and they accepted to purchase the puppy for the same price we were asking in the begining. Because of issues we gave them the puppy with a contract that even if we gave the puppy free (they paid for shipping) we accepted all vet costs and fee's for the problem and any other problems the puppy may have. We asked for the full price just to know if they where ready to take care of the puppy we where honest from the begining and that only insured the trust os the buyers. 3 Days after the puppy arrived to his new home he started to clear up and 2 days later nothing left. They never had a problem since. (as our vet told us the problem corrected itself) They have had no problems ever since. Needles to say this was our only problem and it was not hereditary or anything like that it was simply a problem (like normal humans can have problems sometimes) Other than that our puppies are completely healthy. We also educate all of our buyers with feeding instruction (potty training) and reccomend items to purchase for their little guy. Most of our Items are either for Dental Hygene or are 100% Natural treats that they will love and be trained on. We have a strict contract.

There is also the issue of (LIVER SHUNT WITH VETS!).

Many of our clients come to us after they have lost a loved one bought for 300$ at a puppy mill or something similar. (we have talked to many clients and theit Yorkie shopping stories are incredible.

some breeders actually say

"no I am not home on that day so no one can show you the dogs maybe the day after that give me the morning to clean this mess up and come in the afternoon."
THAT'S NOT A GOOD BREEDER!!! Someone who would leave their puppies and dogs alone for a whole day is irresponsible.

Another client also went to another breeder's house and that client called us crying, they had visited a house where the breeder was upstairs some dogs where downstairs (mothers with their puppies) before going downstairs with the client the breeder shoed the puppies upstairs first and when they went downstairs the sump pums had broke a few hours earlier and all dogs including puppies (BOTH ADULT AND PUPPIES) had drowned in 3 feet of water.! I felt so sad that the breeder would let their adults with pups alone for hours we check them every 15 minutes (AT LEAST) I even stay up until 3AM at night to check on the puppies while at 6 someone in the Family is up to start the day. so there is only a 3 hour difference plus we have a sensor for floods in the basement and we also do not have any puppies in the basement. they are kept upstairs where during the day they have access to a large playpen at will. This isn't a HIGH END TOP NOTCH BREEDIGN PROGRAM but it doesn't SUCK either. what we lack in technology we make up in attention and care for our dogs and puppies.
Keep that in mind before judging me!

Puppy Hugs!
Marc-Olivier Parisien
www.RoyalPuppies.com

No Offense
 

But this post was not even about you this was about Esme's Mom and what we as the YT community would pay for a mixed dog then you came onto the thread and hijacked it to use it to promote your business. Then you get PO'd when you get peoples opinions and how they feel about breeders that mix breeds. You cannot get mad for that. We all have opinions, my opinion is you simply posted your "question about our opinions" to promote your website and your breeding facility. Esme's mom is looking for a new dog she stated that straight away and asked what we would pay for it each and every one of us gave our opinions accept you. You placed a post promoting yourself and your mixed breeds. I hope if you plan on continuing the breed of morkies ( they are awfully cute dogs but there is no way I would pay 1200 dollars for them and your site says up to 4000 american dollars if I remember right which I might not be) that you come up with a real name for them and nothing cutsie like they currently have.
I am not trying to be mean I am just pointing out that you can get the mixed dogs from the shelters I also did state you can get purebred dogs from the shelter as well when I pointed out that the dalmations were a fad and then so many of them ended up in the shelters when the parents/owners realized how much work a dalmation requires cause they can be high strung and get bored easily. If you did not want our opinions and are going to be as testy as you have become over them perhaps you should not have hijacked Esme's Moms post for your own financial gain?
Anyway back to Esme's Mom, hun whatever YOU feel is right for YOU. I would rescue from the shelter and therefor pay the shelter costs because I have had a lot of luck and love with shelter dogs. Only you know what you want though and only you know what you can afford to pay and what you are willing to pay when you see the puppy or young dog that is right for you. My only request is that should you choose a breeder you do as much research as you can visit the place (surprise is always best). Look around for anything that seems not right check the mom and dad over make sure they have the tempermant and socialization that is required to make for a happy puppy. Do the same for the puppies and then when you find the one you feel your family cannot be without pay whatever you are comfortable with.
I am always going to adovcate shelters because I go to them so often and see all those unloved or unwanted animals. Hell one time I found an eclectic Parrot there but my husband said absolutely not so I had to leave her :(
Anyway starting to go off ona tangent so I am going to stop writing here..
Oh one more thing for RoyalPuppies:
27 puppies available is a lot of puppies how many dogs are you currently breeding? AND if you wanted to post your site you should have gone to the puppies for sale or wanted section of YT and not this thread as it was really not the right place for it.

I have never said I have anything against people buying a mixed breed from a responsible breeder. Having spent a good part of my life working in SPCA shelters (my father was a Chief Inspector, my mother a Shelter Manager) I'm extremely familiar with the challenges around adopting these rescued dogs out to the right homes. Most people walking in to adopt a dog from a shelter are not aware of the time, effort and patience it may take to properly retrain the pet. Thankfully now most shelters foster out special needs animals before they are put up for adoption.

In many cases people are better off buying a puppy from a responsible breeder instead of adopting from a shelter.

What I have a problem with is this mass production of the flavour of the month puppy with little regard to the special needs that these breeds may have. By that I mean being up front and honest about grooming requirements. You can't mix a maltese and a yorkie together and expect to get a dog with a manageable coat. So people by these morkies, porkies, chorkies, etc not having a blessed clue what they are getting into. On the other hand, if people are going to seek out a purebred they usually have some idea of what they are getting and why they want it. Try doing research on a morkie. Good luck, what you are going to find is a pile of dribble with little or no real data to substantiate their claims. Now if that's what you want to pay thousand of dollars for so be it.

I am not saying the Chorkie is better for everyone but it is better for more people than the Yorkie BECAUSE OF MORE AND DIFFERENT PERSONALITIES. again if 1 Morkie doesn't do for someone then another Morkie with a different personality and look could be perfect. All the Yorkies have basically similar traits. But please I have not meant the they are PERFECT FOR EVERYONE, or BETTER for everyone. Nothing is. this type of breed really is impossible. And I do have your opinions and thanks. I wansn't expecting that many acusations though (no offence you made none).

PS: I will not move on to the next flavor of the month, you see I am serious about Morkies not playing with you or any other person. I asked for an honest opinion and saw that instead I was getting accusations. i simply thought this post would of done great for my question (it was about price AND mixed breeds)

Thank anyways everyone.
Marc-O

OHH and by the way PM me if you want my web site to view them some people think I am making this as advertising (I ALREADY HAVE GOODLE AD WORDS AND OVERTURE) "PAR PER CLICK" I don't need this. if that's what you are implying (Ashantay)

Oh our clients are educated on all needs but don't forget the coats are not wors than the Yorkie or Maltese (it doesnt double or triple) if that's what you are implying. Ive had many years of experience with these puppies and they aren't that bad 2 groomings a week will suffice. Clients are also aware that if they do not want to groom and or show a dog they can simply give a puppy cut. So that's an easy fix ain't it? 2 groomings a week isn't that bad some times only one is needed. I would guess that is for every for almost every breed out there (long haired). Don't forget they know this before buying.

I really don't think the Morkie is the flavor of the Month it is simply a dog which suits more people at one time. (because of a range in personality and looks)

Thanks
Marc-o

NOW PLEASE FORGET THE INITIAL POST I MADE AND CONTINUE with the initial post (i am sorry for changing the subject) I will repost somewhere else.

Marc-o

Those Sheltie pups do not look very happy and they honestly look a bit poorly

My apologies about the misinformation on the costs they only go up to 2000.00 not 4000.00. And she charges 1200.00 for her < coughs violently > teacups.

royal puppies, not to be mean or anything but just to let you know i am not defending what you believe in. i do not beilieve in breeding so many dogs :thumbdown i was simply saying that adopting a dog is easier said than done and i can understand why someone would rather buy a dog from a very good breeder that's all! i know that you are trying to justify what you do..but i am confused. and i think i need to ask you something. would "you" be willing to have a child after child to make a buck? i know were humans but these dogs feel pain too. even if you keep them clean,fed, and happy doesn't meaan that they don't feel pain! i can't imagine giving birth time after time, and being pregnant time after time! and that's with just 1 baby. then after giving you her babies for years SHE'S SOLD! this i just don't understand, it's like your saying "thanks for the pups and the bucks see ya!

I did not imply this I flat out stated it. And as I stated in my post it is MY OPINION. Others may vary we all have our own minds and thoughts.

[QUOTE=jesscruz]royal puppies, not to be mean or anything but just to let you know i am not defending what you believe in. i do not beilieve in breeding so many dogs :thumbdown i was simply saying that adopting a dog is easier said than done and i can understand why someone would rather buy a dog from a very good breeder that's all! i know that you are trying to justify what you do..but i am confused. and i think i need to ask you something. would "you" be willing to have a child after child to make a buck? i know were humans but these dogs feel pain too. even if you keep them clean,fed, and happy doesn't meaan that they don't feel pain! i can't imagine giving birth time after time, and being pregnant time after time! and that's with just 1 baby. then after giving you her babies for years SHE'S SOLD! this i just don't understand, it's like your saying "thanks for the pups and the bucks see ya![/QUOTE]

Aye I read that too and took offense though she said they give them to a good family so not sure if they sell them or give them away at this point.

I know dogs feel pain by the way and it's not only food and water they get allot of attention. You should also know that after they are weaned there is no attachment to the puppies. (we do not force weane either) once the mother is ready she starts leaving the pen she starts by only a few minutes and everyday comes less and less after a small while they don't want to have anythign to do with the pups anymore. This comes naturally. Also we breed the females up to 5 years old usually 5 years old is MAXIMUM and they get a brake (skipped heat) after each litter or 2 litters depending on size. And they feel some pain but would you say I regret having a child because it hurt? they know what's coming and most are used to it. After they are retiered they are either sold or given away go a VERY LOVING family where they will be spoiled rotten for the rest of their lives. And in our house it's not the same as having only 1 or 2 yorkies, they have social statuses, one is the leader and others follow some chalenge (that's when we come in) so they actually have a life of their own as well here all competing against each other. And they are not spoiled rotten here as you probably know but they won't be left alone for very long either. They can play for at least 2 hours a day with a human and 24/7 with another dog.

Thanks please get back to the other post I will make a new thread
Marc-o

[QUOTE=Ashantay] but why get rid of them at all! all these poor babies know is her, and like i said after giving her baby after baby,they just get rid of her? why? so they can replace her with a "new" girl that can give them more litters? i just don't get it.

yes you may not regret having a child even with the pain, but THAT WAS YOUR CHOICE! these dogs don't have a choice! you are deciding for them! would you want someone telling you when and how many times you should have a child? i don't think so!

[QUOTE=jesscruz]Umm first off the adult dog is wanted in another family it's not thrown in the street if that's what you are wondering, and if I kept all the dogs for the rest of their lives I would have too many. So once they cannot breed anymore (it's not the same as a pet) yes I give them away or sell them (shipping costs only) I admit here they aren't spoiled until they Rot but they are spoiled. And we all have our very own dog which will never be sold or given away. But others which are not for us personally yes are given to other families that will not breed them anymore. Don't get me wrong they are happy here but much more happy somewhere else where the competition is not there anymore. Example we gave a Chihuahua to my Friend the chihuahua was very happy here and it is always sad when they leave (puppy or dog) but the dog will be even happier over there. Of course they will be a bit sad for a few days but who wouldn't. And it only lasts a few days after that their even happier than before and center of attention.

I know your point thogh you think we abandon them, we don't bring them to shelter's and at the same time it's great for the people who do not have enough money or do not want to spend all their money on puppy they can purchase an adult (spay/neuter) and be very happy. A dog is perfect in almost every way it doesn't judge nor does it care what yuo have done in the past it simply wants your love and or attention. it's all it asks and in return you make a friend which offer's unconditional love. To any one anytime. at least our dogs are not hanged when they retire (I have learned that some breeders do that) "Mostly in the USA places it is actually legal" They call it sacrifice to stay legal but I don't care it's awful I rather give it away to someone who cares for it.

Thanks Marc-o

Please stop posting!!!!! I will make a new thread!

[QUOTE=royalpuppiesI know dogs feel pain by the way and it's not only food and water they get allot of attention. You should also know that after they are weaned there is no attachment to the puppies. (we do not force weane either) once the mother is ready she starts leaving the pen she starts by only a few minutes and everyday comes less and less after a small while they don't want to have anythign to do with the pups anymore. This comes naturally. Also we breed the females up to 5 years old usually 5 years old is MAXIMUM and they get a brake (skipped heat) after each litter or 2 litters depending on size. And they feel some pain but would you say I regret having a child because it hurt? they know what's coming and most are used to it. After they are retiered they are either sold or given away go a VERY LOVING family where they will be spoiled rotten for the rest of their lives. And in our house it's not the same as having only 1 or 2 yorkies, they have social statuses, one is the leader and others follow some chalenge (that's when we come in) so they actually have a life of their own as well here all competing against each other. And they are not spoiled rotten here as you probably know but they won't be left alone for very long either. They can play for at least 2 hours a day with a human and 24/7 with another dog.

Thanks please get back to the other post I will make a new thread
Marc-o[/QUOTE]


Well my dog when she had her puppies did not stop wanting them even after they were weaned. She cried when I sold two of them and became very protective of the one we kept. So I do not know how true the no attachment thing is. Also at what age do you start breeding them?

And how would you suggest they choose? that's first. 2nd they feel but they are not intelegent beings (they don't have the power to choose that in the minds) they only have lusk and instinct for this type of choice. And Believe me when comes heat season they all want it and when they get their puppies they all love them and care for them. Dogs are sensient and intelegent but come on they aren't geniuses. Their intelegence is not at that point yet. When they don't want to breed (it does happen) they snap and bark at the same time and the male knows it's eiter not time yet or she doesn't want me. There is nothing about what they want or not want here. What if you DONT breed your female incase she might not want a few puppies and really depp down she want's as many as possible???? then how would the female feel (you can put this 2 ways)

i guess there is just no defense for you on this one seeing as you didn't aswer it. but go ahead and post somewhere else if you like...imo once true colors are shown it's hard to change them. i'm done!!!!

[QUOTE=jesscruz]
I don't know hun... I feel exactly the same way... I would never ever get rid of one of my dogs just to replace them with a new one to make a profit.. but you know it is all about the money sometimes.

They have to be at least 1.5 Years old and it has to be at least their 2nd heat.

I know some females are over protective and take much longer to separate and we would not want to break a females heart by doign this if we ever where to have a female that way rest assured we would not breed that female again. And we would wait as long as it takes to sell the pups even after 6 months if necesary.

Please note that breeding is not like having a pet either it's like a vet who has many dog deaths every year they get used to it but it still hurts. Same here. I am honest saying this it does hurt both of us but it is better for the Female in the long run.

post right before yours

[QUOTE=royalpuppies]
at least our dogs are not hanged when they retire (I have learned that some breeders do that) "Mostly in the USA places it is actually legal" They call it sacrifice to stay legal but I don't care it's awful I rather give it away to someone who cares for it.

Thanks Marc-o

QUOTE]

There is no place in the US that hanging a dog is legal, please do not speak of that which you do not know.

ok so this is your defense? that because their NOT intelligent enough to you, you feel that it's ok for you to decide! and i would imagine that even if a female doesn't want to breed, with YOU bringing in these "hot" boy dogs time after time she will eventually give in. i do not have a problem with breeding ok, what i have a problem with is when you breed so many dogs just so you can make BIG BUCKS! there are many breeders here on yt, and i think i am correct when i say that most of them only have a few girls they breed once in awhile that THEY STILL OWN AS THEIR PETS!!!! THIS TO ME IS A GOOD BREEDER!

[QUOTE=Ashantay]Actually called animal Sacrifice (if you go into details) and perfectly legal in some states (I can do some research if you like) i actually met a lady 4 years ago who used to do this. I guess god punished her since she died of a terrible car accident (car split in 2) 2 years ago. But that's not why I said this. I am really saying that I am not perfect but am not willing to kill a dog if it is healthy. So I give it away. It's just i am trying to proove a point I am not that Cruel and there are people much worse than me.

I would be most interested in knowing what States consider hanging your dog legal. So please share your research results with us. I'm sure the SPCA knows nothing about this "legal" activity. We'd not want them to go out there and charge someone with cruelty to animals when the activity is legal.

I see your point and to have many dogs is my choice, I am still trying to assure you that they are not mistreated. Also that they are pets to us but we only breed and have no ourside job and you have to understand this has became a business especially with a member of the Family who had a stroke a few years back I can't get an outside job without placing that person in a home and that person is actually a human and really doesn't want to go there.. But call it cruel if you want but I do give our Females and Males away once they reach about 5 years of age and then the research process restars all over again for a new female with no hereditary disease and all that.

You should also know that we are currently over stocked in dogs, we are eliminating the Chihuahua's, Chorkies, Maltese, and the Shelties are only limited time. Depending on availability in Germany the Biewers might have to go we have searched for a long time to find out that 90% of the biewers have the Liver Shunt gene in the family somewhere and it might be too late to eliminate it from the breed. We will have to wait on that though. The Chihuahua is going because all of our females are getting older we are happy to say they will find new homes with family and friends we will not be taking any more Chihuahuas to make Chorkies as we have decided the Morkie makes a better pet for (most people) and the Chihuahuas size creates a larger health risk to delivering puppies. To whom ever said the Shelties wheren't looking too good they are doing fine (i visited the breder who has them earlier during the night) and they are very playful and active. Maybe they where just scared of me when I took the pictures. They where also starting the weanign process when i took the pictures so their mothers did not let them go away for a very long time. And they where quite new to me. (Mother's where agitated and puppies nervous. We needed quick pictures at the time. There are already 4 Sold and many inquiries and all 4 buyers report playful and loving dogs. 100% healthy. Vet checked before leaving and they have their own vet check the puppies. (ALL FINE)

We will be actually starting a new breed (Morkie) of course the Name Morkie was for the MIX M for maltese and orkie for Yorkie to actually have both names in the name was the idea but for a breed we will be looking at names. We will keep pedigree information and breed to the highest standards (we also have many breeders on this who will be working with us to create this breed. Maybe in many years it will be recognized as a breed!.

please respond to http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13754 it is a new post I made

It is legal and SPCA knows this already as long as it's a certain religion (which the person can FAKE) it's legal to sacrifice an animal (NOT ONLY dogs!) some do with cows sheep dogs cats frogs anythign but humans and I will share my research on this with you!

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13754

Final comment a bit of a rant though
 

[QUOTE=royalpuppies]Hanging of a dog would be and is considered cruelty and if/when the person who does it is caught at it and there is sufficient evidence to bring the case to trial the person would be sentenced for it and or fined. You can do as much research as you like. If you know people who do this then you are speaking to the wrong people. As for her being punished for this by God I take offence to that as well as my best friend died in a horrible car accident and other then herself she hurt noone. Am I to believe from your statement that God wanted my friend and this woman to suffer? I am sure that she will be or was judged but I do not believe that her accident had anything to do with God reaking punishment on her. Your point is well taken you breed for profit... My vet in Alaska NEVER got used to loosing a dog and she is one of the most popular vets. She treats EVERY dog like it is her own and adores them. She asks about them even when you no longer live there and go to her. so the comparison to vets was a bit out of order as well.... MOST vets go into the business because they love animals not to make a buck. You have pointed out time and time again it is all about the money and nothing else. Oh sure you have stated you spoil them in one post but not too much and in another post said they are not spoiled at all. In one post you said they have constant companionship from a human and then in another you said something different something about them being alone for no more then 3 hours at a time. Honestly I live in England but I am not English I am an American I have taken offense to the way you discard your dogs though I give you a little credit for at least finding them a home first which is more then most puppy mills do. I have taken offense to your dig at America by stating we allow legally for people to hang dogs. I have taken offense to you using this post to plug your puppies. I do not like the fact that you sell TEACUP puppies for more then your other puppies when I have learned from this site that there are no teacups only smaller then normal dogs who have a LOT of health problems because they are so tiny. None of us can change your opinions and you cannot change ours. The only thing I accused you of was posting to a question of another YT members to trump up more business for yourself and I am sticking to that assumption. I have learned from my mother and nana as well as my vet and her assistant who breeds dogs that the best age to start breeding at is 2 years as they are fully developed by then. I do not know if this is true but I am going to assume it is. Please YT do not kill me if I am wrong :p I asked you ages ago how many breeding dogs you had you never answered that so makes me stop to think... my final word and after this I will no longer respond to anything you post is this, You do not know a lot about God if you think he can be the type to cause suffering to any man woman or beast. He is a loving and forgiving creator. I feel sorry for all those puppymill owners and all the breeders out there who will never know what love truly is and what it is to be loved unconditionally the way a dog loves us. I hate what they do to the dogs using them for their money making then selling them or throwing them away or as you have so rightly pointed out killing them. I wish I could rescue each and every one of these dogs including yours and place them in homes where they would be loved for being them and not for being a way to line their owners pockets with profit. Unfortunately I can't and there are always going to be breeders like yourself out there who breed simply to make money. Not because they love the breed and want to see it be the best that it can be. My mother says a true lover of dogs and a good breeder would never breed more then one kind of dog UNLESS they were breeding to start a new breed and even that is only breeding one kind of dog in the end. The more I learn about breeders and puppymills the more I tend to believe my mother. Dogs are wonderful wonderful beings and people who use them simply to make a profit make me sick. Rant is now turned off feel free to say what you will. YTers if you find a flaw with my post please send me a PM I will gladly apologize to any I have offended. My post was not meant to offend honestly.