Cesar Millan's methods
 

Hi all,

I read a post here and there in this forum suggesting Cesar Millan's methods are pretty good. So I decided to google him up.

Apparently, not all experts agree with his methods. So I'm just presenting the other side of the story, and whether or not you agree is entirely up to you, and I'm not trying to suggest/persuade/dissuade anyone. After all, the more information the better right? :) I thought it was at least worth mentioning, if you haven't seen it before.

Warning: the articles are quite long :D

http://www.dogboston.com/askjo/cesarmillan.htm
http://www.petrescue.com.au/article/282

And for those of you who don't like to read long articles, some main quotes:


"Heaven forbid if anyone else tries his methods, because a lot of what he does is not without danger." "Don't try this at home" messages are flashed throughout the show, and in September, the American Humane Association requested that the National Geographic Channel stop the show immediately, citing Millan's training tactics as "inhumane, outdated and improper."


Millan's methods rely on a theory built around short-term studies of captive wolf packs in the 1940's – the Alpha/Dominance theory. There were a lot of serious flaws in that theory. First of all, it drew all of its information about behavior from a very small portion of wolf life – then basically took this tiny portion as gospel. A lot of the behaviors and rituals were wildly misinterpreted, and for some reason, the researchers decided that that these rituals and behaviors were totally valid across species (i.e. dog-dog and dog-human). But, as Dr. Ian Dunbar, veterinarian and author, states, “Saying 'I want to learn how to interact with my dog so I'll learn from the wolves' makes about as much sense as saying, 'I want to improve my parenting -- let's see how the chimps do it!'

Fast-forward – researchers at Yale and UC Berkeley spent 30 years observing dog packs and their hierarchy. This research showed something very different: mainly, 'alpha' does NOT have anything to do with physical dominance – it has to do with control of resources, and does not include physical displays of strength. Let's take the so-called 'alpha roll' – which, by the way, is not a forced thing among either dogs or wolves. A lower ranking dog may roll over an show his belly as a sign of submission; but, in a wolf pack, a forced roll is only done to another animal if the intent is to kill it. Guess how that makes our dogs feel when we try an alpha roll? Now, guess how many people have ended up in the emergency room with multiple bites to their faces after attempting one too many alpha rolls...

I love Ceasar Milan and agree with most of his methods. There are several different schools of thought when it comes to dog training (although his is about dog psychology and not necessarily training, he trains people, not dogs). If you have read his book, his background with the pack mentality is not this research mentioned in that article but from his own experience on his family's farm in Mexico and observing the pack of dogs they had. His methods work and he has saved so many dogs from being euthanized.

I believe the best thing to do when it comes to dog training is to read about several different methods and use a combination of all of them to get what works for your dog.

If you have an aggressive dog that may bite or hurt you or others, using Ceasars methods by yourself is not a good idea, you should get professional help. For the average dog his methods work fine and do not put you in harms way. Things like walking through the door first and having them walk behind you when on a walk will not hurt you or them, it is good doggie manners and establishes you as the pack leader.

I love Caesar. I dont agree with all his methods for yorkies but I love to watch him

I've never even heard of the man.:rolleyes:

What a fantastic post, I do not agree with his methods. At all. There are so many better more compassionate trainers out there to refer to. I do not believe in all that dominance cr*p. My relationship with my dogs is based on love, understanding and mutual respect and I don't feel the need to be the 'alpha'. Perhaps i'm just a softie but I have been in tears over the way he treats the dogs sometimes. He would come near my dogs over my dead body. So basically, he's just not for me ;)

I've watched nearly all of his episodes and I see nothing wrong in his methods. No matter who is training, there will always be people who disagree. It's all up to you in the long run. ;)

You don't have to agree with everything the man does or does not do.
But face it, he does help dogs who would otherwise BPTS.
I have tried some of his tactics with Buddy on food and toy guarding
and I have to say it worked for us.
I bought a couple of his DVD's and I have not been sorry.

Never heard of this person or his methods....

I really don't like him. He may have good things to say but his methods do not work at all for us. I also don't believe that a (small in particular) dog needs to be walked an hour a day just to expect them to behave. I do think that dogs do need exercise though.

I'm not a fan but I know many are. There is something about "him" that I don't care for but I can't put my finger on it.

I like watching his shows, they are kinda entertaining but I will never let him try to train my dogs. I do not like the way its done; kind of look inhumane. If I have a big dog maybe, but no way with the small ones.

I'm not a fan.. I'd rather watch It's Me or the Dog.

I love to watch all the trainers..I like Cesar and Me or the Dog and I loved Tamar Geller's book The Loved Dog.
http://www.tamargeller.com/

I take all the advise I can get and everyone has different ideas and things that work for different dogs. I say.. bring it on.. I'll pick the options I like and what works for me.

I love Cesar and he has saved many dogs who supposedly couldn't be rehabilitated. Look how the dogs on the show treat him...Like pack leader.

I disagree with most of his methods. Look again at how the dogs on the show treat him - what I see is fear.

Every dog is not going to Train the same, that is why there are so many trainers that use all kinds of training. The english lady on it's me or the dog Rubs me Wrong She thinks dog sweaters and clothes are demeaning to the animal.
But I do think some of her training is great.
No Ceaser I have never had a problem with the reason it states not to try this at home is just a desclamer and he wouldn't want you to hurt you or the pup if you did it Wrong.

I've used his techniques on my herd of yorkies and they work. I would have Ceaser in my home any day! I watch his show all the time and not once have I seen any harm he's done to any of his dogs. They don't look fearful of him. And the reason the show has don't try this alone is if you have an aggressive dog you'd want a professional helping in that area. So hence the warning. Just like when you watch regular night time TV this show may not be suitable for small children...<shaking head>
I'd like to see all the different dogs he has in someone else's home LOL...bet they wouldn't be behaving like his do LOL. But seriously to each their own. Just like what I do with my human child not everyone else would do with theirs. We all have different ways of discipling our own kids but please do take training with an open mind.
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

The problem is that what Cesar says and what he does are two different things. Anyone with any training experience should be able to see that. He will say "The dog is in the calm state" but really that dog is panting and showing signs of stress and fear.

Some really good books are The Other End of the Leash, Positive Perspectives, The Culture Clash, The Dog Whisperer (Paul Owens, not Cesar)... I have probably 20 on my bookshelf that are WAY better than Cesar. He is sensationalized television.

Again to each his own...same as raising children not one will raise them the same way...some may think it's totally wrong and visa versa...same goes with dog training...what works for you many not work for me. I like Ceaser and what he does and that is my thoughts :)

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

There is another thread somewhere on YT about him. It has a link to a video of him kicking a dog during training. Not hard but a kick none the less.

I would love to see that??? I looked do you know what thread?

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Out of interest how many programs where trainers help out badly behaved or aggressive dogs do you have in the US?

Only alot of peoples reasoning for liking him seems to be that his methods work or that he turns around dogs that would of had to be euthanized otherwise. Perhaps its because you haven't actually seen other trainers doing the same thing but with different, more gentle methods?

We have several different ones here.

Unfortunately not many. Tamar Gellar is occasionally on Oprah and that is about it. One of the best trainers here, Pat Miller, who has written several books on positive reinforcement, mentions often on her Yahoo! Group Peaceable Paws that positive reinforcement training isn't sensational and it isn't always fast, so it doesn't always make for great TV. I keep trying to convince my local trainer to do a local TV program, because she is so amazing to watch in action. I wonder if those who love CM have ever seen positive reinforcement trainers in action? Maybe that is why I dislike him so much, because I have seen the other side up close.

I have had many dogs and have experienced many types of training. I have seen up close what works for some dogs doesn't work for others. On my crockpot yorkie Teddy he would bark non stop. He went to two different training classes and still would bark non stop. Then the citronella collar - no help he loved it!. The shock collar - because he is over 13 lbs we use it. BUT if the door bell rings shocked or not he would bark and howl!

The vet had said we could remove his vocal cords as a last resort.

He would bark in his sleep until the bark collar!

Tried Cesars method with my husband ringing the door. IT WORKED!!!!! He no longer reacts if the door bell rings and with a dead battery he think the shock collar still works. If the door bell rings he looks at me now like OK this is your responsibility - take care of it!!!!

Thanks to Cesars method the door bell isn't an issue anymore.

I never would have removed his vocal cords but moving to the country or building him a sound proof room were thoughts we had:rolleyes:

The methods that Ceaser uses is postive reinforcement in my opinion.
I don't hit my dog, I praise my dog when he's done it correctly what is not postive about praising him after the correction and he does it correctly? Same as children you correct the problem then praise when the child has done what you asked....OYVEY! I use his methods on some of my yorkie's bad habits and I don't see it any other way but positive. If it weren't positive then I don't think my yorkies would follow me every step I take and go to the bathroom with me and jump in my lap if it weren't positive training LOL, wait maybe I need to shhhhssst them so they won't get in my lap when I go to the bathroom LOL
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terries

Cesar is not positive reinforcement. He may say he is, or he may use some positive reinforcement methods (incorrectly, most likely), but he is not a positive reinforcement trainer. It's not a matter of opinion. Anyone who has read the books or trained with a positive reinforcement trainer would see the difference. He trains VERY differently than a positive reinforcement trainer would.

Maybe you agree with his methods or maybe they work for you and that isn't what I'm arguing, but by definition he is absolutely NOT positive reinforcement.

To answer your question, what is not positive about rewarding them after a correction, is that you don't understand the terminology. It doesn't mean positive in the sense that positive=good or happy. Positive means the trainer ADDS SOMETHING. Negative means something GOES AWAY. Positive reinforcement means you give the dog a reward for a wanted behavior. Negative punishment means you take something away for bad behavior (consequences). "Positive Reinforcement" trainers use rewards (praise, a treat) and consequences (a time out, ignoring) for bad behavior. What Cesar uses is called POSITIVE PUNISHMENT which is a correction or aversive. This is NOT used by positive reinforcement trainers. So when I say by definition he is NOT a positive reinforcement trainer, that is what I mean.

For anyone who took the time to read this whole thing, there is also Negative Reinforcement which means you take something away when the dog does something right. There are trainers out there who apply shock collars continuously until the dog sits, and then they turn off the shock.

Here are some better definitions from www.clickertraining.com

Negative punishment
(P-) Taking away something the animal will work for to suppress (lessen the frequency of ) a behavior. For example, a dog jumps on you to get attention. By turning your back or leaving the room you apply P- by removing the attention he wants.

Negative reinforcement
Removing something the animal will work to avoid to strengthen (increase the frequency of) a behavior. Heeling is traditionally taught through R-. The dog receives a correction? when he walks anywhere except in heel position. Walking in heel position increases because that is the only because the threat of correction is removed by walking there. The key to R- is that an aversive must first be applied or threatened in order for it to be removed.

Positive punishment
(P+) Adding something the animal will work to avoid to suppress (lessen the frequency of ) a behavior. For example, jerking on the lead to stop a dog from jumping on someone is P+ used to suppress the behavior of jumping. Other common examples of P+ include yelling, nose taps, spanking, electric shock, and assorted booby traps.

Positive reinforcement
(R+) Adding something the animal will work for to strengthen (increase the frequency of) a behavior. For example, giving the dog a treat for sitting in order to increase the probability that the dog will sit again.

I hope this at least clarifies what I'm talking about, even if you don't agree with it.

ditto,i think hes great, but dont agree with the pulling and pinning down of the dogs,although it seems to work for him