How long can you crate your dog ?
 

My 4 month old puppy is doing well inside the crate. She likes it there. She is not housebroken and still makes mistakes if we did not watch her carefully.
I was just wondering, how long can you crate your dog ? Some say that you can put her in the crate for the age of the dog +1 month (for her it will be 5 hours).
I need your opinion since on tue, both of us are working and wondering if she can be in the crate for 6 hours.

She does not like her play-pen. She keeps jumping in the play-pen. Any other options ? Thanks.

I would say two or three hours max. Keeping a dog in a box for much longer can lead to serious behavior problems.

For our puppy, we set up a play pen with a tent (her den) and a little box (with dog litter) at the opposite side. She has enough room to jump and play while we are at work, and always uses the box. It's much easier for the dog to distriguise the box from other places they should go like the carpet.

No matter what you're plan, crate train, IMO, is only met for people who are home often enough to release and exercise the dog every few hours. For those of us with full-time jobs, I believe a playpen is the only option that is fair to the dog.

Loki is 2 and I rarely leave him for 6 hours. He easily does 3-4 a couple times a week. When he was 4 months old I could leave him for an hour max, usually more like 30 mins. That age+1 rule is meant for bigger dogs.

Loki is completely crate trained and loves his crate. He also likes his car seat and tolerates his carrier. We used a very small crate until he was completely crate trained and then got him a bigger crate he can stretch out in. I even got a nice mattress and cover for it.

Do you have a pet sitter or doggie daycare in the area? Or even a neighbor who could let her out? I'm sure that a retired neighbor would enjoy getting paid even $5/day to cuddle your little pup and let her out! It sure makes housetraining go faster when you do it that way.

"I would say two or three hours max. Keeping a dog in a box for much longer can lead to serious behavior problems."

Sorry, but I honestly have to disagree w/ you on that statement completely.
(one is to assume that you properly socialize and play w/ this dog also)

You can comfortably leave a grown dog in a crate for up to 8 hours w/o issues typically. Only in rare circumstances would it be advised against.
In an IDEAL world, you wouldn't have to. But it's not the end of the world and certainly won't cause any behavioral problems, quite the opposite, it prevents many from happening. MANY dogs-especially at a young age, regardless of the breed or sex cannot handle a larger area than what is provided in a crate. It's simply too much room and when the dog gets bored, rather than sleeping or chewing on the one or two items in his crate that have been provided, they tend to pace; bark; howl; soil the area; chew other things in the area that you initially didn't put in there; climb out; scratch at the floor and so on.

Crating is one of the more humane and safer ways to go when you're not avaiblable to that animal.
The longer you're not going to be around, the less water-if any-you should leave in the crate w/ the dog. This goes for food too. I personally advise against leaving food w/ the dog in the crate and often water all together. Feed him/her and potty them BEFORE they go on the crate for that day's work and then immediately potty and then feed/water when you get home.

Hope this helps!

FOR YORKIES AND SMALLER BREEDS-

I would try not to leave your little one in a crate for longer than 6 hours if it can be avoided. Their bladders are much smaller and their metabolisms are much higher. Even if they're not active while you're gone, their body is going to produce waste faster than a larger breed adult would. Therefore, taking this into consideration, I wouldn't and don't leave my Yorkies in their crates for longer than this if at all avoidable.
At night, of course they can hold it, but their body is at rest and while I try to sleep 9 hours, they're tighter than ticks come morning! :p

Thanks for your advice. I decided to come home during day time and let her out , play with her for 30 minutes. I think she is fine with it. She is preety good in the crate and rarely make a mistake. Out of curiosity, when you train your dog to potty outside, can you also train her to potty in a pad ?Will she get confuse ? or I should stick with one method and try another one later when she is completely trained outside.

You *could* train for both, but why?
I would simply train them to potty outside on command. That way once you do need to go inside somewhere that you might be for sometime they will have already gone outside.

And I'm sure your pup will be fine w/ that schedule- ;)

Once again thanks. I am happy with the result to potty outside, but somtimes I was just thinking probably if I trained her inside with pad she can be left alone in the bathroom for example while we are not home.

Since she is pretty much crate trained, do you think is a good idea to get a bigger crate so she can have more room ? I was thinking to get 24 by 18 crate.

For a dog with a small bladder and a lot of energy (as all terrior breeds do), I honestly believe that you're going to run into problems in the long run if keeping the dog in a crate for eight hours on a regular basis. Dogs are roaming animals (especially terrior breeds), it's in the genes, so for the dog's sake, I'd highly recommend only create training when somebody is home to let the dog out to exercise and roam around every couple of hours.

Oh I agree 8 hours is too long

I too agree!
8 hours for a small dog IS in fact TOO LONG, like I said. I'd go no longer than 6 if it can be avoided.


As far as leaving her in the bathroom or in a larger crate, if she's good (not chewing/digging/being overall chaotic while you're away) then why not? Go ahead, at that point however, you do run the risk of her using the pad properly or even at all.

And as far as dogs being roaming animals and it being in their genes....dogs aren't solitary animals either. THEY ARE WHAT WE MAKE THEM. That's what the wonderful this is about owning a *domestic animal*. ;)

I have a 6 month old yorkie and a 14 month old yorkie. They have never stayed in their crate longer than 5 hours at a time. If your yorkie is 4 months old, I would not leave her in her crate more than 4 or 5 hours MAX at a time. Can you come home for lunch and let her out? Or can a neighbor?

I come home during lunch time 2 days in a week now and it seems work well for her. The remaining days my wife are at home so it is not a problem.

I think that sounds like it will be fine. My husband works from home most days and Loki goes to daycare if he will be gone ALL day, but if he leaves at 10 and I get home at 4, Loki is capable of staying in his crate until I get home.

Plus, Loki sleeps all day anyway. The difference is if someone is home he sleeps in our bed or in my husband's office. If no one is home he sleeps in his crate. As long as he gets a potty break, he is fine. I just wouldn't recommend doing that *every* day or it all builds up. But a couple times a week is a fair compromise. I am close enough that I can come home for lunch in an emergency but I can only stay for about 10 minutes -long enough for a potty break. If that happens I just give him lots of attention when I get home and he does fine.

I'd agree to a certain extent. We do successfully change natural behavior in many ways. But usually, for every behavior we shape, there is a cost. If you force an animal that has roamed the earth freely for millions of years to spend most of the day light hours in a 2 by 1 foot area, you’re naturally going to end up with an anxious and possibly more aggressive dog. That pent up energy has to go somewhere, and often aggression is a release mechanism. The “we are what we make them” statement applies in that an unfulfilled dog eventually shows behavior problems. We may call them “domestic animals”, but inside, they still have the needs of a wolf. That’s why if you read this forum, every other post is “my little baby is biting/barking/crazy, and I don’t know why”. The reason: A Yorkie is a wolf with a teddy bear disguise. Admitting that is the first step to relief.

If you’ve ever watched the dog whisperer, the greatest lesson learned from the show is that the majority of behavior problems are fixed simply through the dog having more exercise and leadership. Leadership provides mental exercise; while playing and walking/running provide physical exercise. Long hours in a crate deprive a high energy soul of both. If this little soldier (because if dogs aren’t soldiers, nobody is) must go eight hours without leadership, the little teddy bear wolf should at least have the freedom to play and eliminate. Sure it’s a mess, that’s why you confine the little bear to a playpen at first.

I only write this to encourage people not to crate their little ones for long hours, not to judge anyone of piss anybody off.

Here's a pretty good article on the topic achieving house-training without a crate:

http://warreneckstein.com/pettips_caging.html

I have a 24x18 wire crate that my yorkie does well in. I put a nice fluffy bed and blankets in there for her. As long as your pup is completely crate trained (i.e. won't go to the bathroom in the crate) then I think a bigger crate would not be a problem at all. My little puppy has never gone to the bathroom in her crate so that is why she gets to have a bigger one wth more room.

Glad you and your wife worked out a good schedule for taking your little one out.

Bailey sleeps in her crate at night and goes for 8 hours without any problem (at 9 weeks old). We have never had an accident in her crate.

During the day if I am not home she is in her play pen which has her crate (open door) for her to sleep in, her basket of toys, a pee pad and her food/water. I havent left her longer than about 6 hours but she has been fine.

When I am home all her things stay in the play pen, I just leave one side open so she can come in and out. She either sits and plays at my feet or she is in the playpen, so she mustn't mind it

I have a 4 month old and i leave him in a x-pen with bed, toys and wee wee pad. He does good for the time i am out to work. When we go to bed i crate him enough for him to get up and turn around, my crate is adjustable when he grow bigger. I put a cover on it. I tell him "bedtime" and he knows and He would be in there for 6-7 hours and when my alarm hits to wake me up he wakes up too and i put him in my x-pen and he relieves himself. I tried so many crates and return so many crate. Big crates are no good it gives them room to pee so i finally got the right size for him just for nite time. He is good. He dont bark or whine. When he is in there he makes himself comfy and plop his head down.

"If you force an animal that has roamed the earth freely for millions of years to spend most of the day light hours in a 2 by 1 foot area, you’re naturally going to end up with an anxious and possibly more aggressive dog. That pent up energy has to go somewhere, and often aggression is a release mechanism. The “we are what we make them” statement applies in that an unfulfilled dog eventually shows behavior problems. We may call them “domestic animals”, but inside, they still have the needs of a wolf. That’s why if you read this forum, every other post is “my little baby is biting/barking/crazy, and I don’t know why”. The reason: A Yorkie is a wolf with a teddy bear disguise. Admitting that is the first step to relief."

These horror stories that you often hear are simply because there isn't a BALANCE in those dogs lives. You can (I do this REGULARLY) have a dog crated for the times I mentioned, with ZERO issues, so long as there is a balance. You cannot be firm and not be fair. So, give your dog something constructive to do and think about when you are with him. When you cannot be with him, do what is safest for him and yourself and that would often times be to confine him and w/ our little ones, that often means a smaller space-i.e. a crate.
With the variety of purebreds out there today, there is very little that they still share in common w/ them. I would go as far as to venture that SOME have atributes akin to a wolf, but their responces to your manipulations are COMPLETELY different than that of a wolf. Therefore, please for the love of god quit comparing them. Even our domestic dogs have a different digestive system than their wolf counterparts. There is enough physiological change that to compare them to wolves would be like comparing us to OUR ancestors! Yes, yes, we're related, but we've come a long way and while wolves and dogs don't have the same length of seperation and breeding through history that we do, they've made leaps and bonds faster than even we have.

POINT is: Dogs really are what we mold them to be, within reason. Crating your dog is NOT a negative, so long as when you do have the time to spend w/ them, you are. And I don't mean that you take them out and let them aimlessly run at the dog park, give them something constructive to do W/ you...more one on one. Develop your dog w/ yourself, not just w/ others and others dogs.

Litter Boxes?
 

Have a question has anyone tried the second nature brand litter boxes?
Need commits on this.. Pros or cons...Thanks

I use a litter box with Purina dog litter. Our CoCo learned to use it within the first couple of days. It much easier for the dog to tell the difference between the box and the carpet, than a pad versus the carpet (which is why pad trained dogs often go on the carpet thinking it's a pad). IMO, the best route towards yorkie house training is the play pen with the litter box.

The one con is puppies will play with the litter, but it's not nearly as messy as when they rip up the pad. I tried both, and the pad was a horrible mess when she ripped it up. But with the dog litter, I just have to clean up several pieces of paper pellots that may be lying around.

Trapping a little wolf in a 2 by 1 foot area is the worst possible way I can think of to achieve balance. But you're correct, most, if not all, of behavior problems are due to a lack of balance (more specifically, a lack of exercise and mental challenge). Giving your dog enough room to play and urinate during the day-light hours that you're not home is part of achieving that balance, along with giving the dog mental and physical exercise when you're around. Forcing an animal to "hold it" for long hours and barely move for most of the day is a great way to stray away from balance, and cause behavior problems.

I've done quite a bit of reading on this topic. I would recommend you read a book called "The Social Lives of Dogs", by Elizabeth Marshall Thomas. The author has done both: live with wolves in the wild to study their behaviors, and she also lives with about a dozen domesticated dogs. I used to think like you, that today's dogs don't have much in common with their ancestors. But after reading material from authors that have real life experience, I realized there really isn't much difference (mental and soul wise) between a yorkie and a wolf. Most the difference is all perceived by us humans. But recognizing the wolf within will greatly improve your understanding of dog psychology.

I think if you bothered to research the topic, you would have to admit that comment is way off base.

The best way to understand our pets is to study where they came from. So to "quite comparing them" would be doing a disservice to the dog. The best way to better care for your pet is through understanding: and the key to understanding your dog is understand how wolves behave in the natural pack. Time and time again, superior results have been achieved by using the wolf pack as a guide.

In my original comment, I agreed that it's not negative as long as somebody is home to release the dog every 2 or 3 hours. You responded by saying "Eight hours is fine". But to the true dog lover, the very idea of trapping a high energy wolf for that long is offensive. So of course, I made an effort to make sure everybody thought twice before they would torture their animal like that. If people like you post here that "eight hours is okay", I fear some people might actually believe that. So I'm just putting in a little effort to make sure less dogs out there are suffering.

Uhh....yeah.
 

"So of course, I made an effort to make sure everybody thought twice before they would torture their animal like that. If people like you post here that "eight hours is okay", I fear some people might actually believe that. So I'm just putting in a little effort to make sure less dogs out there are suffering."

ROFL-WHAT??? So I suppose that I've been "torturing" animals all my adult life and make a successful living from doing just that.
That's a bit extreme.
And it sounds like you believe everything you read. It's best, imo...since we both clearly have them, that one should read a book and then practice it w/ your own PET...not wolf. What you've read simply doesn't sit completely right w/ me. If you're to go on to try and work w/ dogs professionally, then you simply MUST do waaaay much more than read some book. You must have loads of hands on experiences w/ thousands of variables and be able to take your base method and tweak it oh so slightly to fit each case. Books often do not have all the answers...just suggestions and ideas. When a book-if you're a reader-fails to give you the answers or results you were looking for, then you consult a professional and hope they're worth their grain of salt.
Putting your average pet dog in a crate for the amounts of time I said and then properly handling them when you get home is nothing shy of PROPER REARING.

It looks like we will need to agree to disagree on this entirely!

A bit rude to say; of course that's not true. But if the reference comes from a professional with more years of experience than any of us, it's worth some consideration. If you're really a professional dog trainer, you will enjoy the book I suggested: "The Social Lives of Dogs". The author also wrote a famous book among dog trainers called "The Hidden Life of Dogs". Both books are packed with information about dog psychology.

Of course we shouldn't believe everything we read, but reading and studying text from experts with more experience than any of us is a key part of reaching the top of our games in any profession. Just because something works decently doesn't mean it's the best or most humane way. Keep reading and studying to improve your trade.


That's fine. But since I provided two references on this thread, please provide me with a few sources which support the notion that it's appropriate to crate a dog for 6-8 hours daily? The credible sources that I've seen agree that eight hours is tolerable for the dog if needed now and then, but not to be done regularly.

Here is another source that informs on the harmfulness of regular long-term crating:

http://www.greyhoundog.org/Faq/GreatCrateDebate.html

Here's a direct quote from the author of the above article, speaking with over 20 years of experience with over 4,000 greyhounds:
To put it simply, crating is cruel and unnecessary because there far superior alternatives: such as a puppy proofed confinement area with a litter box. It could be a play pen or a gated-off area of the kitchen floor. The dog should enjoy as large of a roaming area as possible without putting the dog and your possessions in danger. The "confinement zone" method should always be the first option attempted, and crating should be a last resort. With the confinement zone method, you gradually increase the confinement area until eventually you train the dog to be trusted in the house. With long-hour crating, the dog never learns.

I just pray, for the dog's sake that you cease from recommending long-hour crating. I have more sources than I can count that suggest it is not only unnecessary, but abusive.

"Keep reading and studying to improve your trade."

Wise advise, I hope you practise what you preach.


"I have more sources than I can count that suggest it is not only unnecessary, but abusive."

Sighting sources isn't impressive to be quite honest when it comes to things of this nature. They're all well and good for people to read, but unless you've personally gone through and practised these methods for YEARS on VARIOUS dogs of VARIOUS ages and sexes and circumstances, you can't realistically offer proper advice or recommendations on anything but what you've experienced yourself. Not what someone else is telling you to do from a book. How could you possibly promote something that you have NO IDEA is a load of crap, or is actually legitamite? I'm CERTAIN that there is a book out there that promotes the "best" and most humane and effective way to train your dog. And you would completely disagree w/ it. Someone else on the other hand may swear by it. :p
So, site away, please do. I'm sure it'll make good reading to someone, somewhere. :rolleyes:
I agree that I don't know everything, but experience has brought me to know that you are absolutely wrong in thinking that in many circumstances to crate your domestic dog is more detrimental than to let it run freely in a larger area. There are more risks (not just mentally, but also physically) to do this, than to crate your loved one.
Honestly, that right there tells me your experience level. Not what you are able to copy and paste from the internet or some book. Hands on is where the true knowledge comes from. And MANY of those authors that you have sighted really only have limited experience in what they're writing. They may site themselves as being in the practise for X amount of years, but in reality-for example-they're counting more years in than they actually spent on "that" subject.
You should write your own book. It would be just as competent and well versed as a few of those other authors. I never said I did/did not read those books, but I am familiar w/ the authors and that's all I've got to say about them!
Your opinions are yours, as mine are mine. We come from two very different worlds on this subject. :rolleyes:
If you feel it's inhumane to crate a dog, that's fine.
I will continue to advise what has worked for me and my clients on a consistent basis and for myself...that's really what it's about-CONSISTENT RESULTS and happy owners and well adjusted dogs. :thumbup:

Ok, on the crate training issue between P-did and k9trainer, I think it ENTIRELY depends on the individual dog. I have a male and a female yorkie who are full brother and sister. My female has done fabulously in her crate and can stay in her crate for up to 8 hours with no behavioral issues or negative side effects and she doesn't soil her crate. My male, on the other hand, could not stand his crate and it did cause behavioral issues if we put him in his crate and he would soil his crate even if he was in it only for a hour. Now that my dogs are adults and my husband and I work full-time, we do what is best for the individual dog....my female stays in her crate while we are at work and my male is confined to a room. They both do fabulously with no accidents or behavioral issues whatsoever. Thus, it is my firm opinion that whether crate-training is good or bad is based on the individual dog.

RLC-

"My male, on the other hand, could not stand his crate and it did cause behavioral issues if we put him in his crate and he would soil his crate even if he was in it only for a hour."

The only issue I have w/ what you've said about your circumstance, and I'm honestly not disagreeing! (sp?) lol
Is that IF you wanted to, or needed to, you could teach your male to be okay w/ his crating. Just because a dog doesn't like it and naturally freaks out or doesn't do well, doesn't mean it's not what's right for him in the end.
Take that rule of thumb and apply it to any other aspect of your dogs life or even a child's life. They often don't know what is best for them and they often may not agree w/ everything that you do w/ them or for them, but in the end, it's up to you to decide and to teach. Just because it doesn't come natural, means little.

Oh I know! We crated him for 6 months of his life and he NEVER got used to it. My female hated the crate at first but learned to love it after a couple of months of being in there. It definately didn't come natural to her. But I figure if my male didn't like it after 6 months and it was causing him behavioral issues, then he was not meant to be in a crate.

Agreed.
Either you take another training approach to it, or if it simply doesn't come natural and you've invested 6 months in it and it's not a big deal or a neccessity for you, then that makes sense.