Discouraged and Depressed
 

I have not posted in quite sometime, unfortunately it has been a rough couple of months. Bubba who had a few issues, taken from mom too soon, he had teeth and his brother did not, aggressiveness and lack of bite inhibition, both resolved thankfully.

The breeder that I got him from, had to have DNA test for the sire and so the akc papers were a bit delayed. When they arrived, the breeder was not the name listed... I had a weird feeling about Bubba and the other boy not being with their mom, now I feel as though I have don't have real story. Regardless I love Bubba, my husband has however had his fill, there seems to be a much bigger problem.

Potty training, has been our last and biggest challenge it seemslike, Bubba can go 3 or 4 days sometimes without an accident, but when he slips up, he totally loses it. He is crated, exercised three times a day, fed on a strict schedule and a victim of Agoraphobia, I am home 95% of the time with him, so no excuses right? Wrong.

Unless Bubba is asleep, he cannot be still, he has no concept of sitting and observing or laying to relax, he paces frantically when you aren't there to command him to sit or lay.
First Test: I can run him around for two hours straight, he's emptied his bladder, I crate him, set up a camera, leave and he paces in the crate until he has worked something lose and soils himself. His crate is only big enough for him to lay, stretch and turn around comfortably.
Second Test: Bubba uses a graveled area near a lawn to do all of his business, I got his expen to overlap the lawn and gravel so he can have free time, the area is 5'x5' with his toys, sticks, water etc. I go inside and pull up a chair and proceed to watch, I could not believe my eyes, he paced back and forth, at one point running in circles, no interest in toys or water even when he began to pant. Window open, I would give a command sit or lay and follow with praise, only for him to get up and pace frantically again. My husband said, leave him out there, he has to figure it out, two hours later Bubba is laying down, wow I said, dh was right! Wrong. Bubba had paced on the gravel, facing away from my voice/house until his rear pads bled. Bubba didn't even have the sense to stay on the soft lawn. I felt horrible, and even worse because my husband has since left it all up to me.

DH says sell him, return him, give him away, I don't care, he consumes you and is a filthy animal that will always soil himself. By the way, I am also borderline OCD/mysophobic (germaphobe) and so is dh, I can't say loving Bubba makes me anymore tolerant of the messes, I honestly feel like I have a responsibility, I am not the type of person to quit, and this has truly tested me and my marriage.

What, do I never get to have a life, because I bought a "puppy mill" brokered, seemingly disturbed yorkie? Has anyone out there had a similar issue? Please help, I don't want to re-home Bubba, I couldn't, how could I pass that on to someone else. The 5% of the time I do leave my home, grocery store and weekly lunch or dinner date with my dh.

Also, if I can get Bubba diagnosed with an affliction due to puppy mill syndrome, is the breeder/broker liable for behaviorist fees and medication if needed? Bubba is 8 months old, I'm sure there is a statute of limitations. I really appreciate anyone who has taken the time to read this, I have gotten so much help from this website and look forward to some advice/support.

wow, i am so sorry but i really dont know how to answer this. No harsh judgement intended but it seems to me you are in over your head.

I think this little dog is as stressed out as you. It really doesn't seem like a healty enviorment. You mentioned your husband wanted you to sell / give away /return the dog.
Have you considered a yorkie rescue. They would address all these issues and find him a home ....

I am not a breeder but i don't think the breeder is responsible for anything other than specific medical issues..

I have had an do have complete patience to handle Bubba, I praise him constantly, he gets so much of my attention through out the day. His exercise includes me playing with him one on one, letting him explore while I garden or tend to the chores on the property, he always stays by my side, a good little side kick. Twice a week we have a play date with a female yorkie that is one week older than him, she is a runner, so we fence in part of the lawn a 12'x12' area, she will sit or lay down when tired and he just won't. My girlfriend Sam, just comments, is he always like that? Although her little girl is a runner I find myself full of envy that she has enough sense to lay down. Now I use the term sense loosely.

Bubba cannot be happy with living like this, whatever causes him to pace, once he gets going, just consumes him. I bathe him once a week, groom him daily, I will tell him "down, more down " until he is on his side relaxed, then give him a doggy massage several times a week. Our Lab will lay for an hour and just enjoy it, Bubba will lay and as I praise him he attempts to get up, like okay, I'm done right. I don't have to raise my voice I just say more down and continue and all the while he is ready to just bounce right up.

In over my head, possibly, but not due to stress or stress being passed on to Bubba, what I was asking for is probably more along the lines of professional or advice through experience. I will calling dog behaviorists latter on this morning.

My apologies for the lengthy thread and responses, I have not posted in a couple of months and figured the more information I gave, maybe would jar someone's memory with a situation similar to mine.

oh,poor little guy. it sounds you are doing the right things but poor little bubba has some serious issues. i think the fact that you are contacting a professional that deals with behaviorial issues is a great idea...
also maybe talking to your vet about it.
has bubba been to the vet recently for a wellness check ?
sometimes an illness will make them act kinda weird..
i know it is really difficult but try to keep a positive attitude.
i have 3 dogs and i know they can try your patiences at times.
keep me posted on bubbas progress..

ps, no need for apologies
that is what yorkie talk is for
everyone here is awesome....

Bubba has been to the vet to have his baby teeth removed and when his pads were hurt, May and earlier this month. My vet's response to the experience was, "maybe just leve him on the lawn no gravel so he can't hurt himself. The pacing, most small breeds seem high strung." My vet is clearly no behaviorist and did assure me that physically Bubba is healthy.

I'm hopeful that whatever has caused Bubba to be this way can be corrected or at least alleviated. Thanks for your concern I will post updates.

well that is good news that he is healthy.
i think you are right, i am sure a professionall behaviorist will be able to help.

Why not use a diaper or belly band for right now? This isn't going to go away any time soon, and it might be a good temporary solution.

Welcome back!

First off it sounds to me like Bubba has issues with being crated, including the xpen. Have you tried gating him in a room or two? Also if you're home 95% of the time, he shouldn't be in a crate while you're home. Yorkies love and live to be with their owners, they don't understand why they would be kept from this.

Also, potty accidents should not be reprimanded, in any way, shape or form. Accidents are your fault, not his. Until he is more reliable, block areas of the house from his access, but don't crate him. Dogs kept in a crate for long periods of time will have issues, even when they are let out for exercise and whatnot. Granted, some Yorkies accept being crated, when it is a positive experience. But not all of them.

He does not appear to want 'free time' in an xpen outside. Take him for a 5 minute walk instead. Walks reinforce bonding, which is another issue that may be part of his problem.

Before having a behaviorist come in, I would recommend a vet check. Bloodwork and a BAT to check his liver function, as hyperactivity can be a symptom of Liver Shunt. Does he eat well and have good body condition?

When he is in the house with you is he behaving better? (Just as you do your day to day stuff?) Will he settle down on the couch next to you to relax, or lay in your lap?

I am so sorry your pup is having some issues. I have linked an article here for your perusal; Dog OCD | Symptoms

Something for you to consider, and I'm a little surprised your vet did not mention this to you.

I believe a behavourist is a good option. How-ever perhaps seeking a second opinion, from a INternal Medicine Specialist, would be a good idea. As the article says, there are medications and other therapies that might help him. There also could be an underlying medical condition that has yet to be found, that is either causative or contributory to his behaviour.

Please let us know, how it goes with Bubba

Sounds a lot like my Tibbe when I got him. He'd spent 9 mos. in a cage outside & was wild, almost feral - had all the fears, insecurities & lack of socialization one would expect. He fought me, howled, whined & generally acted like he was brain-damaged his first 2 weeks. It was BAD! I almost gave up. But it is all conquerable if he is a healthy dog. If you haven't, get a complete, current vet check with labs first.

I used simple behavior modification positive-reward training, trips outside every 15 - 30 minutes to desensitize him to the world out there and as an aid to housebreaking him and a bit of the Nothing In Life Is Free concept to teach him he had a leader/protector now & to look to me for absolutely everything in order to change his life. It worked slowly at first & then it worked fast & very well. He's a totally different dog now! Everybody that knows Tibbe comments on how much fun he has in life while being so well-behaved. Ha! It was far from that at the beginning.

It sounds like he has separation anxiety & behavior problems due to deep insecurity & all the associated fears & misbehavior that come with. Praising an insecure, nervous dog all the time may encourage them to keep it up, reinforce that anxiety. Momma dogs don't praise their pups a lot. Reserve praise with a dog like this for only when he is relaxed or doing what he is supposed to do. He's not a human with the ability to process constant praise in the proper way but is a canine who badly needs the right kind of loving, patient leader to make him feel that he has nothing to fear or worry about & he doesn't need to sweat the small stuff, realizing that praise is reserved for proper behavior. Dogs get that. They need to be praised they achieve - that is how they learn. Don't mistake love for praise. You can love him without constantly praising him when he's nervous, etc. That's where the proper training serves so well. It teaches when to praise & what it says to the dog in training. They begin to work to get it & stop the wildness.

If you think you are willing and able to devote a lot of time to studying how to become the trainer he needs, then get some good training books by noted trainers & study their theory & methods for positive reward training of the nervous, insecure dog(personally, I would steer clear of the Cesar Millan training as you have to be basically him to carry that off successfully IMO) & become acquainted with the NILIF methods to teach him you control the world so he has nothing to concern himself with. It will take time, you will need your husband to be on board as well and know that only the most devoted can help a little one like this. The rewards for your work, though, will be huge if you think you can do it. Hugs.

I'm sooo sorry you've had to deal with this. The result of bad breeding is so sad sometimes. But sometimes even good breeding can get a dog like this, so it just depends really.

He sounds pretty OCD and neurotic and to be honest, I'd consider medicine at this point. They do make doggy xanax, etc, and it may just take the edge off.

However, it also does not sound like to me he's getting enough exercise for the kind of dog he is.

Honestly this would do nothing for Jackson. Playing a little bit inside one on one will tide him over, but he needs to RUN or walk far distances or swim to become truly tired. If I just put him in an expen outside and told him to go potty or expect him to wear himself out, he would think I was crazy and just look at me and want out and want to be with me. You may just have a super active little guy.

I can guarantee that exercising him HARD will wear him out both mentally and physically like you've never seen and probably take a lot of that stress away.

Take him on a 4 mile walk, or find a dog park with a huge fenced in area and let him just run, or if you have anywhere to swim him, that would be even better! It's not like you need to do this every day, but I know from my personal dog that if we went more than 2-3 days with just staying in the house and playing inside and him following me around a small garden, he would drive me up the wall with boredom. I mean he's not neurotic, he has a good "off switch" and enjoys to sleep in with me, and lay around a bit, but he will find trouble to get into if he's not given a GOOD work out.

He sounds pretty OCD and neurotic and to be honest, I'd consider medicine at this point. They do make doggy xanax, etc, and it may just take the edge off.

I would definitely find a vet who is knowledgeable in this area. A behaviorist sound right also. Have toy considered a doggie neurologist? Given his possible breeding issues their could be brain issues as well. But to help things more quickly the medication issue sounds very reasonable. Does not mean it has to go on forvever, but you folks need some relief.

Best of luck and you are an angel loving Bubba like you do:)

Brit, while I agree that exercise is good for a dog, you would not want to start most Yorkies with a 4 mile walk. This could be deadly! You have to work up to this amount.

To the OP, I suggest you get a vet check up and make sure that there are no underlying issues. I'm concerned about the pacing, and I did want to tell you that my little rescue paces, if his tummy is upset. Are you feeding anything besides the dog food that could be upsetting his stomach? Sometimes even a healthy dog treat can cause upsets. Also, remember that dogs are very intuitive, and if you are nervous, they are going to sense that. It may help if you can find ways to relax. Do you have time together where you just chill? Anyway, glad you are calling a behaviorist, let us know if anything is helping.

I don't believe I stated he is reprimanded for accidents, and no it doesn't matter the size of area he is kept in, for example, if he is walking around as I prepare dinner he will just do laps around the kitchen to the living room and back, if I let him, I eventually would tether him to me and continue, or put him in his crate and prop him up where he can see me. Constantly telling him good boy for laying or just sitting and watching. He eats extremely well and was tested for liver shunt at 6 months, vet was hesitant, I needed to be certain just because of the breeder's dishonesty.

If we take the dogs to the lake, a long day for us, tons of walking playing swimming for them, Charlie our high energy lab is spent, Bubba seemingly rests for a while (30-40 min) then he is back to his usual self, no he will no lay and be still next to me, that would be fantastic, I would not complain one bit.

Of course I chose to reply to this comment not because it is of any use really, but out of defense. I have owned several dogs, livestock and horses from a young age, trained my pet pig at 16 (FFA in high school) to retrieve, when I ask for help, believe me when I say I have some idea and desire to have a healthy relationship with my animals.

Bubba is not happy, and more than anything I am sad for him.

I am a pretty composed and relaxed person, my own anxiety comes from large crowds, strange places, traffic, filth, so in my home I am absolutely at peace. We live on seven acres and Bubba comes everywhere with me no leash needed, when we are outside I will sit or even lay on the lawn, he does laps around me, I lay him down next to me, he can't wait to bounce up. Dh says he's unloveable, doesn't like us, but Bubba is loyal, he follows, obeys, is sweet, just doesn't relax.

I am an avid runner and although I will take my Lab with me, at the 3 mile mark he needs rest, Bubba is 4.5 lbs and a petite frame, you are correct, running like that would kill him, it has never crossed my mind to do that to him, I know so many people think what works for one dog works for all dogs, I just want Bubba to rest.

I have played with his diet a bit (Taste of the Wild to Blue), and his stools changed for the worse, with his kibble I add carrots, but have never eliminated carrots all together to see if that might be the culprit. I will have to try that.

Talk to your vet about dosage, but melatonin has been used to take the edge off. I'd imagine with Bubba you might need something stronger, but you might try it anyway.

Ralphie's previous owner's vet gave Metronidazole, for his stomach issues and that settles him down right away. However, sometimes he paces due to anxiety. I've found little things that help him, for example, he like me to hold his chewing stick, while he chews on it. He has gotten a little more confident over time.

Another thing, I wanted to mention is that some dogs think the crate is where they are supposed to go to the bathroom. I've read that you’re supposed to clean the crate thoroughly with an enzyme cleaner so that the dog will not smell any trace of urine or feces. Even a pad that has been peed on and washed will still have the smell unless treated with an enzyme cleaner. Crate training may not be the best option for some dogs. You might want to look at this thread about "rehabing a rescue dog", it has tips that might be useful to you. http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...ll-rescue.html

Nature's Miracle has become our best friend, purchasing by the gallon these days, I have even gone as far a creating a mild wash for his private part after he does his business, once I knew the pacing led to the accidents, I knew all else was just a symptom. He knows not to go in there, he just can't help it once he gets going.

I suppose I will begin to treat Bubba like a rescue, more so than I already do. I have phoned a couple of behaviorists... Scary, one said an "e" collar could resolve this within a week :( I said I would sooner put it on myself, that gentleman got a bit huffy " Mam, you are the leader, it is an animal!" No thank you goodbye. Have a few more to call.

I will read up on puppy mill rescues, thanks.

yeah, that does sound scary. how the heck is an e - collar going to help ?
you will know the right one....

Unfortunately, anyone can call themselves an animal trainer or animal behaviorist, no license is needed. A vet may be able to help you find a reliable one. I’m glad you aren’t just going with anyone. While I believe that most dogs (and children) are happiest when they understand that someone else is in charge, I think there is a way to do this with kindness and confidence, instead of aggression. Anyone using an e-colar wants to take too many shortcuts and it may result in even more problems long term. Good for you for saying, "No thanks!"

By the way, since you are an avid walker/runner, do you take Bubba on walks? I do think this can help build their confidence and make them feel more like they belong to the pack.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Yes Bubba walks with us all the time, Charlie and him get along well and even when Charlie runs up ahead Bubba will just stay by my side. Bubba plays well with other dogs, however it is pretty short lived, he can engage them for about 5-10 minutes and then just comes back circling me. Same with chew toys or treats, as good as the bully sticks are, 5-10 minutes tops before he is pacing again.

You stated:
" Bubba can go 3 or 4 days sometimes without an accident, but when he slips up, he totally loses it. He is crated, exercised three times a day, fed on a strict schedule"

Do you mean that he is crated all the time in general or only when he slips up?

If it's when he slips up, he's seeing being crated as a reprimand.

If it's all the time, he's feeling reprimanded all the time.

You cannot treat or train a Yorkie like a Lab, horse, or pig. They are totally different. They are different than all other dogs.

Your puppy is exhibiting those behaviors because he is in a kennel too much of the time. I have seen this before.

When he is loose in the house or where ever, he runs around because he doesn't know when or why he will be put in the crate again. He's not understanding this treatment, so he's going to run and make the most out of it while he can.

He may have even learned that when he poops in his crate, he gets to come out.

Yorkies are highly social dogs. They need to feel that they are a part of the family, 100% of the time. Being in a crate makes him feel unloved and unwanted.

My Tink came to me from a family that had 6 kids under the age of 12. She learned from them that dogs bring people toys and that's what makes them happy. Period. She drove me nuts the first week I had her, till I thought about why she was doing this 24/7. Short answer is: Kids play.

I decided to teach her how to enjoy down time, selfishly for my own sanity. I started out holding her in my lap for 20-30 seconds at a time. That was all she would tolerate. Gradually the lap time was increased as she tolerated more and more, till two months later she fell asleep in my lap for almost 2 hours.

She still loves to play, but now she also loves to be held and loved on.

Will he let you hold him on your lap?

I remember you from when you first came on here. I respect your training abilities with your other animals, I really do.

I have owned Yorkies for over 30 years, and a few other dogs, and worked as a Vet Tech for 20 years, trained race horses for 10 years, I have rehabbed 2 rescue Yorkies from the Humane Society, and have helped quite a few YT members with their problem dogs.

The technical term for what your dog is doing is: Dirty Dog Syndrome, but mostly for his acting out behavior from being confined too much.


http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...need-help.html

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...irty-girl.html

My intent was not and is not to make you defensive or to feel attacked by me in any way. I 'see' what the problem is with your dog, and you don't, yet. I think you are in denial that your methods may be failing this dog, you think it's his problem.

I won't comment further, other than to say I hope my posts may help others in the same situation, and that I do hope you find an acceptable solution to your dilemma.

My apologies to you if you feel I have offended you again. I am sorry, I only want you to be able to turn this situation around, so that you, your husband and your Yorkie can be happy together.
Sincerely wishing you the best of luck,
Kathy

O.k...just a thought but what about neutering? I know not everyone agrees with it but if he's not going to be bred it may make things easier. Neutering usually calms a male dog down and, if he is marking in your house, it should help with the accidents too.

Wow! You think because you add "my apologies" to your post you can excuse your uncouth remarks. Your obtuse demeanor is completely off-putting to say the least and although you may have some valid information, you are extremely abrasive and may not reach those that would otherwise benefit from it.

I wish you all the best, although I am challenged by my puppy, I try daily, to make this world a better place, your days, I imagine are uneasy if you are called to respond in such ways.

Good luck to you, and thank you, in perspective my problem is minuscule.

Wow :eek:

bump...

Goodness me!! I've just joined, but I'm gonna go in the deep end. Why are you crating your dog????? If you are in 95% of the time.. then why!!! Totally agree with kjc and you don't seem to want anyones advice unless they've got credentials so I won't give you mine.