Obedience Class
 

We have just signed up our two new adopted dogs, Kash and Lucy, for obedience classes. I have wanted to put them in classes since we adopted them 4 months ago because I think training does amazing things for both the owner and the dog. I took Layla to training when she was younger and even though she wasn't a bad dog to begin with, the change was amazing. It was so cool to see her WANT to WORK towards something and be so eager to please me!

Anyways, since then we moved out of the city and to a small town. We work in the city so it's tough to get home and drive back in to the city again with the dogs if we want to take them to classes. Luckily, I found out that a trainer from the city (from a different facility than where I took Layla previously) was coming out to our small town one day a week to offer obedience classes in the evenings. So we signed right up.

Last night was our first class, with just us and no dogs. We found out we are not using treats or toys to train, as I did previously with Layla in her classes. The trainer said the only way to train a dog is by using a choke collar :( Everyone else is going out to buy them (the next smallest dog is a beagle, the others are large breeds... and there are only 5 dogs in our time slot including our two).

After the class was over I went up to the trainer and said my dogs are NOT using choke collars. We have a maltese cross and a yorkie cross and according to the rescue, Lucy has had issues with collapsing trachea. Our other dog at home has spinal issues and paralysis... there's no way I'm going to yank any of these little guys around by their necks!

So the trainer said if we refuse to use the choke collars, we can look at corrective harnesses such as the gentle leader to discourage pulling on the leash. Have any of you guys used this harness and what do you think of it?

I am feeling a little discouraged and I'm not sure how far we will get in these classes by not following his directions. We discussed just not going last night, but we've already paid $320 for both dogs to go and we'll lose that if we just don't go anymore. I guess we'll just give it a try and see how far they get. I'm regretting not looking into it further, but there was no information I could find on his website about this kind of training.

I'm so sorry you are in this predicament! I wouldn't be comfortable with a trainer that believes that choke collars are the only way to train. Personally I believe that positive reinforcement encourages a positive bond and lets a dog use their brain to figure out what we want - not what we don't want. I use an easy walk harness made by the same maker as the gentle lead. I love the easy walk because it hooks in the front and doesn't encourage sled dog pulling like a regular harness but still fastens across their chest and doesn't put pressure on the trachea. The gentle leader is a head harness. I'm not sure how the fitting would be on such a small dog with a small nose. Here's an article on fitting one.

http://www.gentleleader.com/App_Cont...structions.pdf

My bigger concern would be what the trainer is going to expect you to do in training. I think I would talk to them and see if you can't get your money back. Tell them that this isn't a training method you believe in and you can't do it with your dogs. This really concerns me!

What really confused me is that he kept saying "positive reinforcement" which is what I believe is the best way to train a dog. Praise, treats, play, whatever works to motivate and reward. But then he says a dog needs correction by using a choke collar. Well, I am not going to punish my dogs if they don't do exactly what I ask! I will have them keep trying and then give them big praise when they do!

You're right, the easy walk is the one I'm thinking of using. The gentle leader I think would also be problematic for us. He did talk about a nose harness with me after class last night, but even he said you need to be even more gentle because if you pull back too hard you'll hurt their necks! Plus, Lucy has such a short little muzzle I don't think it would be comfortable or stay on for very long. The regular harness with the leash clip in front is the one I am thinking of trying.

I think we will go to the classes and learn the hand signals and positive techniques, and then we'll go home and work on them for a week to suit what we think will work with our dogs.

I agree with you. What about a choke collar is positive?? Also, if you aren't using toys or treats for positive training - what are you using??? I hope that he isn't just throwing out the "positive training" language because it's popular.

What you are planning sounds good. I teach at a truly positive training facility. If you have any questions about what you are learning and how to make it more in line with what you want, feel free to ask and I'll try to help!

Karen

Thanks a lot, I'll keep you in mind for any questions!!! The place I took Layla was all positive reinforcement as well. We were told from the start to not even THINK about bringing or using a choke collar ever. They taught us to not do anything if the dog is doing something wrong, but give them rewards when they're doing something right! It worked well with Layla.

We don't know where our new dogs came from because they were just abandoned, but Lucy has high anxiety and is scared of almost everything and everyone (although she has come out of her shell a lot in the past few months!), and Kash is pretty happy-go-lucky but there are a few things he is scared of, like brooms and tv remotes! I wouldn't even think of trying to hurt or physically correct them. They have been through enough.

you are right to refuse to use choke collars.
Oscar just graduated obedience school at petsmart and he just wore a regular vest harness.
I am sorry you are in this situation.
Hope the class works out for you.

We tell people that choke collars are great - they are perfect for hanging on a hook in the ceiling and attaching a hanging plant to - but that's all!

Update:

We took Kash and Lucy for the first time last night and they did very well! On our way there, I couldn't even put Lucy on the ground because she was screaming and crying! I could barely hear the instructions in class because she was crying so much. The trainer came by to meet each dog and my fiance let him know that we are more comfortable just using harnesses - we were the only ones without choke collars :(

Anyways, we went through heel, and sit and stay. Kash caught on pretty quickly, except sitting at heel. He would stand beside me but didn't want to sit until I pushed his little bum to the floor! Lucy eventually got the hang of it but it took awhile! By the end of class, Kash would even stay while I walked to the end of the leash, and then did a circle around him back to heel position. I know he was getting pretty tired though because every once in awhile he'd lay on his back for a tummy scratch!

Walking them back home after the class was the difference between night and day. Lucy walked right beside me the whole way!

The trainer used both of them in demonstrations, and he also used the little beagle in class who did have a choke collar. He would yank up on the collar when she wasn't performing and her little neck would stretch right up :( I couldn't even watch.

i am sorry but i would not let that person put his hands on my dog. Yanking up on a puppy/dogs neck is very dangerous.
It could cause serious injury.

Yes, we were totally against using choke collars so we are using just harnesses. He didn't pull on our dogs because it wouldn't do anything. They just walked beside him on their harnesses like they should. I hope the other owners see that we are getting results without resorting to choking our dogs :mad: :(

I know the owners of the beagle asked about using a harness and the trainer said it wouldn't work. Well, we are using harnesses and it's working!!! Dogs aren't stupid. We don't need to hurt them to make them do what we want. They will learn without being choked :(

that is good news. I am glad you are using the harness.
Hopefully the others in the class will try it too..
You are right , dogs are not stupid and they do not learn by force . That only makes them fearful.
I am glad the class is working out for you...

We were on the fence still even before going to the class last night. We have already paid the money so we thought we'd still just go and do it our way. If we get nothing out of it, at least we tried! But we are learning the hand signals and getting the doggies to heel and I think seeing the other dogs doing it helps them know what to do as well. And maybe going is a good thing - it might even open the trainer's eyes to NOT using a choke collar. We can show him it's not the ONLY way!

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: GOOD FOR YOU....

I have just completed a training class with Quincy we used the easy walk harness and He wore a buckle coller I would hook the easy walk for some training and other training I had to remove it mostly on the come recall. It worked great I still use it today on walks with him. Good luck!

:thumbup:
We actually bought the easy walk for Lucy and just started using it a few days ago. We used it in training last night too. She does not like the leash sitting there in front of her but she's getting used to it!

Just saw your thread & wonder myself what about using a choke collar squares with positive reinforcement. Parenthetically, does he not know about CT & such? Sounds like that trainer is either new at it or just behind the times. When the sold the program, you should have been informed up front of his training methods, since the choke collar training is so controversial.

I had the same experience when I started out in obedience 7 years ago with Eddie. The biggest training center in the city advocated choke chains or pronged collars. They even specifically said Eddie should be on a pronged collar because he was pulling.

I was new to training, but it just didn't seem right. I switched schools, and they allowed me to use a harness and emphasized treat or toy rewards. His improvement was immediate.

I do understand the idea behind corrections, but for my little dog, it didn't work. My feeling is many little dogs are naturally afraid of things, and you have to do everything you can to make training fun -- and corrections aren't fun.

That said, I do let my dogs self-correct when walking on harness. If they're pulling, I'll stop and they'll get a self-induced tug on the harness. That's all I've needed.

Interestingly, or sadly I should say, the AKC requires dogs to wear a neck collar when taking the Canine Good Citizen test. To use a harness, you have to get a note from your vet saying the dog has a "severe" neck injury and would be harmed if using a neck collar. Absolutely ridiculous in this day and age. My dogs have passed the Delta Society therapy dog test on harnesses, but I refuse to test them in a neck collar for the much-easier Canine Good Citizen test.

Good luck. I hope you can find a new trainer that uses more modern techniques.

I think AKC has changed on that. Sadie took the CGC recently wearing an easy walk harness. Delta used to not allow it and they do now also. This is what AKC says:

Equipment in Test
All tests must be performed on leash. For collars, dogs should wear well-fitting buckle or slip collars. Martingale style (sometimes called "limited slip") collars are permitted. Special training collars such as pinch collars, head halters, and electronic collars are not permitted in the CGC test.

As of November 4, 2010, body harnesses may be used in the CGC test. The evaluator should check to make sure the harness is not of a type that completely restricts the dog's movement such that it could not pull or jump up if it tried.

We recognize that special training equipment such as head collars and no-jump harnesses may be very useful tools for beginning dog trainers, however, we feel that dogs are ready to take the CGC test at the point at which they are transitioned to equipment that allows the evaluator to see that the dog has been trained.

The evaluator supplies a 20-foot lead for the test. The owner/handler should bring the dog's brush or comb to the test.

THAT'S AWESOME NEWS! Thanks! I sent a letter of complaint to them several years ago and never heard back.

My feeling was that a CGC dog should be tested in whatever collar or harness they're wearing in everyday life. If I never use a leash on a collar, what good would it be to get CGC certification on a collar? The dog may behave differently in real life.

Thanks for sharing!

Cali went all the way through her obedience cgc and therapy program in her buddy belt. No collar for her. I have been in obedience for years and most teachers are not familiar with toy dogs. A 100 pound dog may need a choke collar at the beginning ( and they can be used humanly) because it may take that to keep them in. On troll and the other dogs safe. Once the bog dogs calm down they do well with regular collars or harnesses. If you show in the AKC ring you must use a collar -I have a small collar that I made for her that does not tighten for that.

Don't be intimidated by the big dog trainers. Just learn what your dogs needs to do and do it with the harness. Your dog is smart enough to learn it all, and they do not need to be man-handled to get it.

Agree wholeheartedly. There is a way to use choke collars safely. Also the notorious in some circles "pinch" collars. I have no need of either for a 6lb Yorkie. For my big breed that is a different kettle of fish.

Magic was trained on both a "pinch collar" and choke and regular collar. Zoey our other big girl required only a few lessons on the choke collar - she is not a puller. But the "correct" corrections taught young enable you to take them with you over the lifetime of your dog.

There are some circumstances even today with a CDX trained boy, I will double collar him. It is for both of our security. A rough rule of thumb is multiply a dogs weight by 3 to get an idea of the strength of a dog compared to a human. So a 120lb boy is equivalent to a 360 lb male.
I've yet to have to use it; but a situational example is; a crowded ferry boat, with lots of ppl and dogs. You bet I want any advantage I "might" need if my boy decides to respond to another dog's aggressive stare.

Another situation at a crowded dog show, all working breeds are together waiting to go into the ring. The choke collar is what is used for these breeds to be shown in and for a mighty good reason. A dog lunges for yours - you quickly snap up on your choke collar and turn your dog's head away. Hopefully the other handler has gotten their dog under control.
I have seen two dog fights at a show - and believe me, it is not a pretty sight.

I thought the OP's dog were Yorkie's that the choke collars were being suggested for - didn't know they were big dogs. I do agree with the humane & proper use of the choke collar on a big, powerful untrained dog if one can't control it any other way at first. But never on Yorkies or toy dogs or even medium-sized dogs.

Yes, our dogs are small. One is a yorkie cross and one is a maltese cross, both under 10 lbs. The next smallest dog is about a 20 lb beagle. The others are large-breeds.

Our next class is tonight. Here's to hoping they keep learning with their harnesses :)

I have no doubt that they can learn in their harness, hopefully your trainer will be just as adaptable!

I'll be thinking about you this evening!

How did it go last night?

It went great! When we walked in, the trainer came to me and said he met someone online last week who also does not use "correction collars" on his dogs, and has trained them well with harnesses. He said what he does is attach little bells where the leash attaches to the harness, so he can "correct" the dog by jiggling the leash and making the bells ring. I told him that is definitely something we would try! For now though, they have been doing really well without us needing to tell them they're doing something wrong.

I am very happy to report that our dogs are not the worst in the class!!! :D

Yesterday we kept working on heel, and they both are doing very well, except the part where they have to sit when we stop lol. We are constantly pushing their little bums down. After they are in position though, they stay well and we are able to walk around them both while sitting or laying down. I am very proud of my little munchkins!!!

Aww - I'm glad to hear it. It sounds like they are well on their way to being the stars of the class!! Yorkies have their own mind for sure, but I've found them to be quite trainable. That brain they have works to our advantage sometimes and I've also found that they really do want to please us - at least if we have treats!

I went to beginner obedience this week (without our dog) and was shown the "acceptable" training collars - none of which were harnesses. I voiced my concern about the trachea and the trainer said I just needed to get a regular buckle collar for him. I also purchased a gentle leader (highly recommended by my sister) and will take that to class (even though it wasn't one of the acceptable ones). Hoping for a positive experience as my Buddy is a real puller!

Seriously stick to your guns here. Just say Yorkies are prone to CT - collapsing trachea, and until my boy learns NOT to Pull, I will not use a buckle collar, but my gentle leader. Just say to him, Hopefully you(meaning the trainer) can work with this.

Agreed - stick to your guns. I was so glad we did! With Kash, we just used a regular harness and that was good enough. When I trained Layla years ago, she used a regular harness as well.

We finished our classes a couple of weeks ago. We had to do a test at the end, and Kash passed! He normally didn't listen well but that last class he did. And somehow, Lucy failed! She was the perfect little student for all the classes until that test lol! Oh well, they both got certificates of completion that are now on our fridge :) They really did come a long way!