Drawing Blood!
 

:mad: Still having biting problems while trying to bathe 4mth. old Macy. posted earlier about the bathing issue, thanks for the responses. She's still mean as hell and now has drawn blood on a few ocasions (most) when trying to take something from her that she should'nt have. HELP.

Gizmo hates baths too. However, he never draws blood, he simply just tries to get the heck out of the tub. Is there any specific treat that your little girl goes nuts over? Sometimes, when I bathe Giz, I'll have my husband be and his head and feed him treats while I wash him.

I mean she needs to know it's not okay to be attacking, especially for just a bath. Has she always been this way?

Is she a rescue? Or have you had her since a pup?

Being nosy about her background, may be a little easier to come up with a solution if I know.

Taryn,
Thanks for the reply, we've had Macy since she was 8wks, did'nt know about waiting till 12wks since all of my other puppies (diffrent breeds outside dogs not around Macy) were gotten at 8wks. Lets see we play tug-o-war with her and of course she growls and pulls. Is this something we should Stop?

If she's playing tug of war and it's the play growl. Then no, don't stop. Sounds like that's her play growl. I didn't know she was such a munchkin. The bath issues will probably be grown out of as long as you're consistent with bath time and reward her for good behavior and trying as hard as you can to ignore the bad behavior.

Don't get your hopes down, we got Giz young too and we've had some obstacles with training hi. mEven today we had a set back and he's almost 6 months old.

But I would definitely try using treat during bath time. Especially if they are the treats you use for training.

Good luck! :thumbup:

By the way if the growling during playing is mean. I would drop the toy and turn away from her. She won't like the lack of attention and will probably stop the growling, that is if it's aggressive growling.

I would practice taking the things away from her that she growl and snaps at you. Take for a few seconds and give back to this many times she knows she will get it back when she is good and waiting for it. This takes some time but I think it would help. Baths I always wash evrything but the face first. And when I do the face I be very careful cuz it's scary for them at first. Or just start by putting her feet in water and let her get use to it.
Good luck

Does she listen to you at all? (not trying to be a smart butt, sincere question) More like is she understanding 'No' and 'Good 'Girl'?

When she gets in that state it's like she knows nothing but kill me! She may understand no and good girl sometimes. Thanks.

I know this sounds weird, but try acting like her real Mom and growl at her. You may have to try a few different types of growls but there should be one that will stop her in her tracks.

When a dog is in a reactive state saying no or good or grr at her will do not one thing as they are not with you at all. Brain has shut down and all you can do is put them somewhere they will not hur tyou or others and let them calm down. Do not do what sets them off again in the manner you did it hte first time they got set off. Find a slower calmer treat loaded way to do it the next time.

JL

Hi Welcome to YT :)

You need to nip this in the bud NOW...let her know this behavior is unacceptable..What she is doing is showing dominance over you...She is telling you NO you can't take that from me and your not going too...She is only 4 mos old...and you need to teach her what is acceptable and what isn't...You can very easily stop this behavior now before it gets out of hand...if you don't, you are going to have a serious problem on your hands when she gets older.

What I would do is...during bath time if she goes to bite you...I would grab her by her chin hair...don't pull the hair...it doesn't hurt them, groomers hold them there while grooming so they will be still, look her in the eye and say NO in a firm voice, turn her head away from you and continue to bath her until you are done...than treat her...give her something that she really really likes..cheese, carrots, chicken...rewarding her after the bath...she will soon learn, thats its not that bad and she gets a reward.

Bitting you while trying to take something from her..is dominance...I would take a chew toy and play with her with it but don't let her have the toy...if she bits you while playing...say OUCH loud enough to get her attention put the toy up and walk away and/or put her in her crate or play yard what ever you are using to confine her in...stop all play...with consistent...she will learn..if I bit the, fun time ends...and bitting is unaceeptable.

Once you get to the point that you can play with a toy together without any bitting...start letting her have the toy for a few sec at a time and take it back from her...if she doesn't bit reward her...if she does...say ouch, stop all play...You have to let her know you are the pack leader not her...I would also take her and craddle her in your arms belly up...do not let her move or up until she stops resisting...than tell her she is a good girl and that you love her, get some lovings in before letting her up...no treat for this...love is the reward...this will help you gain pack leader status....Good luck!

I would start her on a pretty intense behavior modification/positive reinforcement training program to get her used to listening to you and learning to do what you say so that she learns to trust you. Once she trusts you, she won't be so scared that she has to try to bite you to get out of the bath experience and she will start to accept it as one other thing she's being taught how to do by you. You can read a lot about that training method here on YT in the library and online. When done properly, it can transform a regular, confused owner into a proper dog trainer and a little hellion into a well-behaved dog and it is all fun for both of you. It takes some patience and time and you being more persistent than she is but it is do-able.

Good luck.

I love the overall Nothing in Life for Free training program. It's a very gentle and polite way of reinforcing who is in charge. It worked wonders for my Westie. My Lucy is so submissive anway.

Nothing in Life is Free Gaining control of your dog humanely

Do you think it's painful for her. I wonder if the water feels like something she needs to get away from. They do make dog wipes maybe start all over and see what part she is hating so much. When you pick her up does she bite? And maybe use treats have her thinking about them instead of biting. (something she only gets at bath time and she really wants). She only get it if she behaves. It may take two people so one can wash and one can do the treats. Take baby steps. It's amazing how if you have something they really want they sometimes behave much better.

I have a cairn that is this way about toe nails. She has never drawn blood from biting but she will snap. My daughter thank goodness is really fast at it. But I understand the frustration. But the good treats help keep her mind on something else. Good luck

Thanks for the replys. She has now gotten worse. Now alot of times when we just attempt to pick her up she starts growling and biting. We'll try some more of the sugestions, the growling at her does'nt seem to be working very well as sometimes she has already bitten us before we can get out a GROWL. :confused:

Bump. any thoughts on my latest problem. But hey on a plus note we can get her to sit sometimes.

When she growls and bites at you, do you still pick her up? If you are reacting and jumping back, she is controlling you. You really do need to get this under control now! Do not allow her to boss you around. It is not fun to be bitten, but I have taken a bite from a pup just so as not to let them know I am afraid.

As for bath time, I would muzzle her for now. Let her know that you are going to bathe her no matter what. Praise her afterwards, but I don't believe in giving treats for what is expected behavior. My groomer taught me that...and I she has a great relationship with the pups she grooms. One of my difficult ones does very well with her and she does not give treats. She is very matter of fact when grooming them and lets them know she is in control.

The other thing that I do when a pup does something that is simply not acceptable is to put the in time out. I put them in a room by themselves for just a few minutes....and I continue to do that as soon as they exhibit that behavior again. You might try that with the biting. Pick her up immediately and remove her from your presence. Let her know that she must act appropriately to be with you. They are just like toddlers...as the link that Ringo posted suggested.

Sounds to me she is trying to be the alpha. I would put her in your arms in a cradle position close to our waste walk around the house like that and outside for 30 seconds a few times a day, it puts them in a submissive state. The vet suggested that with Louie and it worked. Also the vet said no tug of war play unless you win, We just stop playing tug of war with him instead played ball ect. Also you can pick her up, and hold her arm length away from your body for 13 seconds, at first she will wiggle than calm down and sumit. It work with Louie in about 3 days. Good luck.

I am curious....what methods have you used for housebreaking her?

Thank you all. I would say yes she is trying to be "Alpha". So, put her in a room away from us "time-out"? I've held her down for 3-5min a few times while still being bitten, that does't seem to work. Maybe time away will. I'm guessing it's a tiny muzzle to fit her. That should be real fun:eek:.Must buy one and try that at bath time. As far as housebreaking we take her out first thing in the morning and she sometimes pees outside (mostly sniffs around and looks on the ground) and will then come in and crap on the floor. She will use pee pads about 85% of the time and poop on them about 50%. She almost always uses them when she is in her play pen.

The trick to successfully training a pup is to always use positive reinforcement!

IMO growling at a pup and/or holding it down is doing nothing but intimidating it. All that does imho is frighten a pup. The only defense a pup has is its teeth! I don't necessarily buy into the alpha thing...yes, you do need to show your pup you are in control; but not by intimidation I know there are lots of people who say it is ok..I say no. Get yourself a book by Tamar Gellar.... here is her website where you can read about her. She is in to positive dog training: The Loved World Foundation by Tamar Geller - Home

Just for now, I would use a muzzle for bathing if she bites so that she cannot hurt you. Just be very gentle and reassuring. She will soon understand that a bath is not going to hurt her. To get the right size muzzle, speak with your vet. Mine ordered a tiny one for one of my fosters who bites. He now is starting to do well without the muzzle when I trim his hair...but I used it for a long time.

Oh, and yes, time out can be very effective if you are consistent. Don't do it for long periods....just a few minutes will do. Pick her up as soon as she exhibits unacceptable behaviors and put her in a room away from you. Bring her back after a few minutes and when she behaves well, load her up with heaps of good girl praises!

This sounds like you're describing an 'Alpha Roll'? If yes, this most definitely should never be done to a puppy, it will never work. I have heard where puppies do get 'mean' from this treatment, or totally regress and hide from the owners. She is not trusting you at this point, you have to develope a relationship of mutual trust and respect with her. To start, never put her on her side or her back and hold her down.

I would buy a cheap halter and leash and put it on her for bath time and play time. That way you have a way of protecting yourself from her biting, by just holding the leash (and her) away from you. No tugging or jerking on it either, as some do as a reprimand. Just gently grab it and hold her away till she stops trying to bite, maybe say 'Ah, ah' or 'No, no' at the same time (just to let her know what she is trying to do is wrong), then begin where you left off. Be gentle and loving with her at all times, she is just a baby.

I don't know how long this will take, but you need to be really consistent and patient as you need to reverse the damage done by rolling and holding her down.

The 'Alpha Roll' or whatever people want to call it, was originally developed as a last ditch effort by dog trainers for use by other dog trainers to be used only on adult dogs with severe aggression issues, who were deemed untrainable by any other methods, all of which had been previously tried on the dog. If the 'Alpha Roll' did not work on them, they would be PTS. It is a last ditch method because it doesn't always work, and it can make a dog worse. It is only done one time, when it's done right, and if it works it will never need to be repeated again

If you try to give her a belly rub, be sure not to roll her over... she will have to roll over herself, or she may see it as a punishment and think you are going to hold her down again.

When you go to pick her up and she growls... she's thinking you are going to try to hold her down. Try calling to her to get her standing before you reach for her. If she still growls, make light of it. "Oh no, you're not growling at your Mommie! Well, I've never heard of such a thing! You silly girl... " and laugh a little. (again sounds crazy... but laughing will relax you... and her)

Please keep updating.... it is very important to follow your progress with her.... If you do decide to get a professional trainer... you need to tell him/her that you tried to do an 'Alpha Roll' on her a few times as this is the cause for her aggression, and needs to be considered when accessing her behavior and working with her.

No muzzle, it will just make her angrier, and keep her out until she poops and treat her and praise her tons....

It does sound like she's trying to be the alpha, but have to taken her to the vet to rule out a pain of some sort?

Otherwise, since the behavior is so severe, I'd consult a behavior specialist.

Muzzles do NOT make dogs angry!! I live with a fear biter and he is muzzled at times that procedures must be done by myself or the vet and when it comes off he is just fine!

I also spend a lot of time at the groomer. With a pup that has major issues getting nails trimmed, she often will put a muzzle on them. They stand and let it be done and when the muzzle comes off, it is like nothing ever happened.

First of all, we are not talking about angry dogs. We are talking about dogs that have fears. It would be very difficult for me to believe that this puppy is angry. For NOW, I suggest a muzzle at bath time to protect yourself. You won't have to use it forever! With my biter, I am using the muzzle less and less....but he knows when I put it on that I am not going to hurt him!

Here I agree muzzles do not make dogs angry or dangerous.

My suggestion is to take her to obedience class. She is 4mths old? If so good time to start puppy obedience. Here you learn how to handle your dog, and under the eyes of an experienced trainer. And make sure it is an experienced trainer before you sign up for class; ask questions, ask to observe a couple of classes so that you get a feel for the teacher and the class dynamics there.

Next, you don't mention how often you walk her? Good healthy exercise is so important for not only their physical health but their mental health as well. Take her out as often as you can in a day; even if only 10 minute walks, or 2 20-30 minute walks.

Oh, I agree, muzzles don't make dogs angry, but this is a young puppy that has experienced being rolled and held down numerous times. Muzzles are a form of control, and this pup needs to learn that control can be achieved without it being forced on her.

To develop trust, it will happen quicker without the muzzle. I am also worried that the OP may get bit trying to put a muzzle on this pup.

It won't take too long hopefully to turn this pup's behavior around, but I honestly think a muzzle may do more harm than good, considering what the pup has been through. I'd even go to every two weeks for baths (for a month or two), and with regards to grooming there is nothing that needs to be done that couldn't be let go for a month, including her nails. A gentle brushing with minimal restraint would do it.

It is not normal for a 4 month old puppy to be vicious either. Something caused her to become that way, and I (IMVHO) would proceed with great caution handling this pup so as not to inflict further injury to her mind. She is still young enough that her behavior can be reversed.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with a muzzle making a dog angrier. Pebbles is a biter and when she goes to the vet she is muzzled. It comes off and she it totally fine.

My thoughts are that this puppy was taken from its mother way too soon and now has issues with biting. This is that same as Pebbles. You really need to get this behavior in check and not by making her submissive. That will NEVER work.

I have used the leash and harness on Pebbles and it really helped when she was a puppy. It even worked well for bath time too. She is very good with grooming but that has not always been the case for her. It took me working with her every day for a few minutes at a time to get her to accept to be bathed and groomed.

I again disagree with you. That muzzle is needed so she cannot bite the OP. Period. Then, with the muzzle on she can desensitize her to the things that provoke the biting. And, yes...you did say it would make her "angrier". I respectfully disagree.

I have never been bitten putting a muzzle on a pup. It is very simple to do...you simply put it on quickly. I usually start from under or behind and have never been bitten putting one on. There is no risk of injury to a pup doing that!

I am not talking about hog tying a pup here....I am saying to protect yourself while helping the pup understand she is not being harmed.

I totally agree her behavior can be modified. I have an adult pup (fear biter) that came to me as an adult, terribly traumatized...he is a work in progress, but is coming along nicely. In his case it has taken years, but he had more history than this pup.

this puppy was taken from its mother way too soon and now has issues with biting which the OP tried to correct using the 'Alpha Roll'.
This has made the puppy worse.

There are a few other threads where people have Alpha Rolled puppies, and this puppy is reacting the same way. So it's a bit more involved now than just '8 week old puppy biting' syndrome.

The most important consideration here is that the owner is safe. The best way to insure this is using a muzzle during periods where biting is likely. I can't and won't watch an owner get bit trying other methods. The dog's mouth needs to be closed for the protection of the owner. And for longer periods, a basket muzzle can be used. Any other way and the dog has the chance to snap.