When Playing Becomes Fighting
 

For the most part, Cooper and Max play well together. For those who don't know, I got Max 2 months ago and he is 18 weeks old. Cooper is 2.

They will play so nicely for a while. They always want what the other one has, so if Cooper has a toy, then Max must have that same toy. They go back and forth for a while until one of them finally gets the toy and then plays independently with it.

With that being said, Cooper is a pretty selfish dog. If they are tugging at a bully stick together and then Cooper goes to lay down, then Max may walk up to him (thinking they are still playing) and try to get the bully. It then turns into a fight where Cooper snaps at him and actually grabs him with his mouth. I fear if I don't break it up it could get ugly. Sometimes even when I try to break it up Cooper will not let go and Max screams. It is no longer play. It is definitely a fight and scares me. If I don't intervene I fear it will elevate and Max will truly get hurt.

When they are eating Max always finishes first. When Max is done he will be nosy and go to Cooper's dish. Cooper will snap at him, nearly biting him and Max screams. I've since trained Max to sit when he is finished.

This is now happening more often. I think Cooper is trying to tell Max to stay away at certain times, but Max isn't getting it. If Cooper is sitting, playing independently and Max disrupts him and Cooper snaps, am I supposed to control Max for bothering him or Cooper for being aggressive. I am confused. Am I supposed to be teaching Max boundaries or teach Cooper to play nicely.

At this point I could never imagine leaving them home alone without keeping Max confined.

Both! You have to get on Coop and teach him to be 'easy' with Max, and so Coop can stay sane, allow him some time alone, and teach Max to 'Leave it'.

Cooper is getting food aggressive? May have to work on that one.

In the meantime, I usually clap my hands loudly to interupt any unwanted behavior I see, and address it immediately. You really need to let them know what is not acceptable in your house. Thinking about it, I address the worst or most harmful behavior first.

Sounds like pretty normal canine behavior to me. They know what they are communicating to one another so I wouldn't worry about it. The best thing you can do for Max and Cooper is to make "Good things happen" all the time when they and you are together. If Cooper thinks he's in trouble because of Max or you are favoring Max, this normal behavior could escalate and then you'll have to undue things. Teaching obedience and positive rewards for good dog things will help.

I've just recently started working on clicker/reward training with them. Max is extremely receptive, but Cooper not so much.

I just realized that it kind of is food aggression. I suppose bully sticks are food. It's odd because Cooper isn't a big eater, but I suppose it's more of a dominance thing with him.

I'll keep doing exactly what I'm doing. It just gets scary because it's almost like Cooper gets in a zone where he doesn't even hear me or know I exist.

We are working very hard on "drop it" with Cooper. I'm thinking when he grabs Max I can say "drop it" or "drop Max". He knows the command, but refuses. If he has something I need him to drop, I say "drop it" and he literally gets down on the floor and crawls in slow motion without dropping it. If i hold a treat for him and say "trade", he will speed eat the treats and then get the original object he dropped before I can even blink.

After typing this it's clear the issue is Cooper. Darn.

My puppys are the same way. Whatever Zoe my 11 month old Shorkie has Zach, my 6 month old Yorkie wants and vica versa. Zoe growls and snaps at Zach but that doesn't stop him. Zach even takes things from my Basset Hounds and they get annoyed they are a little over a year and weigh over 50 lbs each. Whenever I buy a toy for one I buy four of them, one for each dog. Whenever one gets a treat they all get it. But Zach will go from one dog to the other and try to get their toy or treat. I kind of worry about the Bassets though because they can swallow Zach in one bite lol. So far they have been very patient with him just a couple of growls.

Bentley was here before Baxter, my Boxer. I have kept the mantra that Bentley gets the treats first, food bowl first and anything else first. When I feed them, Bentley has to sit first and then I put the bowl down. Then Baxter has to sit first and then I put the bowl down. They eat side by side. If Bentley gets done first and goes to Baxter's bowl I tell him no and he goes. I also put my hands right in the bowl while each is eating to make sure I have no food aggression with me being right in there.

When they have bully sticks...I give Bentley's his first and off he goes to his bed and then I give Baxter his and he goes to his. If there is the first sign one of them wants the others' I get right there and tell them this is theirs and make them go back to their bed.

Toys are a different thing. I let them do their thing. I could have 4 same exact toys and whatever one has the other thinks it is the one he has to play with. I let them play with the same one. I think reinforcing that Bentley is the alpha over Baxter the Boxer has done wonders. It is not too late to do that with Cooper and Max. Max is still young and you can feed Cooper first, he gets treats first and whatever first. I would try that. Also I would try while you have one by themself to learn the drop it or leave it command. To me it is important they learn that. If something falls on your floor you don't want them to have, it could be a medicine or whatever...it would be beneficial to know they will drop it or leave it.

Looks like I wrote a book again...but I hope some of what I said makes sense.

Dyan

Books are helpful, Dyan :)

I've been working on drop it with Cooper for months but nothing seems to work.

I've made a huge mistake in feeding Max first and giving Max things first. I'm not sure why I started that but I will change it immediately. I always put Max's food bowl down first, while Cooper sits very nicely waiting for his. Max is not very calm when it's feeding time and I've given in to just feeding him. He'll sit, but you can see he's not calm at all. I'll change that at their next meal today.

It helps so much to type everything out and reread it. I see I'm making Max the alpha dog and that could lead to Coop's aggression.

Does anyone have any tips on training drop it? The same goes for when we are playing ball. I literally have to pull the ball from Cooper's teeth to throw it for him. He knows what drop it means but refuses.

I just picked up "The Yorkshire Terrier" by Deborah Wood (Terra Nova series in white cover) at Petco last night. There is a chapter on introducing a new baby when you already have one, and it stresses what you should do to make the first dog understand that the new one isn't taking its position in the household. Makes a lot of sense to me. You might want to have a look at it.

This second baby is really an interesting thing....I've gone to school on everyone elses threads. Things are going well with Bridget and Greta and like Cooper and Max - the "treat" thing is where it can get "if-y". I do give to Bridget first, and to Greta immediately afterwards. Bridget will drop hers and go get Greta's then go back and try to get her in her mouth also. Greta is such a little lady - she doesn't put up too much of a fuss - probably because she knows I'll get it back for her. If I can catch Bridget going for Greta's treat - I try to distract her with a toy - she then usually forgets what she was going after.

I've read to try to stop things before they happen. I try to get Bridgets attention before I do anything that I think may cause her to feel she has to get agressive. In the evening they get a little turkey, and I sit them down - one one each side and I can see Bridget getting excited (while Greta sits like a little lady). I make sure Bridget "SITS" before I give out the treat - at the same time - one on each side. I can then control how much Bridget (my little "P"orkie) eats so she's not done before Greta (who I swear must hold up her little paw pinkie when she eats".

When I come home from work - both girls are excited, but I make them calm down before letting them out of their room. Then I greet Bridget first, and as guilty as I feel about that - I don't think Greta even notices because Bridget is like a maniac and gets out the gate first. The girls stay together during the day, in a room big enough to get away from each other if they need to. But one of us was home for a week and a half before this and gradually built up to several hours. That was the reason for having 2 - company for each other. I would feel bad if I had to keep them seperate.

I do not, however, put any kind of treat, or chewy in their room with them when I'm not home. Anything that I've seen that could cause a spark is not allowed if I'm not right there. I've found with my girls it starts with Bridget feeling she should have everything....from all the treats to all my attention. She is getting better about that. For the longest time if Greta came over to me she would leave whatever it was she was doing to squeeze in between us - now she's good with it. As soon as Greta goes to play I make a point of going to Bridget and saying what a good girl she is.

Sometimes I think it sounds worse than it is....like children....lots of screaming and yelling, and maybe a little hair pulling - but in the end they're friends. Everyone is just letting the other know what they will and will not stand for - and we as parents just need to oversee that no one gets hurt in the process...

As far as "drop it". Bridget won't "drop it' for me - she will for my fiance. I've always played fetch with her and when I do - I've made her sit and go through a routine....."READY?".....ONE.....TWO......THREE, and throw. so if I want her to drop something I just say "READY?" and she gives it up....lol I'm sure she'll catch on sooner or later, but for now I just give her praise, and a little nibble of something (usually carry something in my pocket).

Sorry this is so long - I just find all this really interesting to see how similar they can be - regardless of age. Both my girls will be 1 next week.

This is exactly what I was thinking when you said that Max will go to Coopers bowl after he is done. My first thought was that you were allowing him to be finished first. When I feed my 3 it is always Pebbles that is fed first. I put her bowl on the floor empty and she sits, gives paw, then I fill the bowl and paw again. If she is acting to pushy for her food I make her wait~and she does. Then she will give paw again and is allowed to eat. Can you tell that I make her really work for it? The other two will hang out and wait their turn. Since Pebbles was the one I was having issues with food I make her work harder than the others. Dbug and Bog will already have their food in the bowls and I just place them on the floor. Everyone is finished at the same time and they will then sniff each others bowls while getting along. But this was not always the case until I changed the way the Pebbles was fed.

So I guess the point I am trying to make it to have Cooper work for his food and eed him first. That way Cooper is not the first one finished.

Thanks for the advice. Cooper will never be the first one finished. Max inhales his food and Cooper eats very leisurely. Cooper my take a couple of kibbles, walk them over to the rug and then eat them. I would have to feed Cooper 5 minutes earlier for them to be done at the same time. I don't think that feeding time is an issue anymore because I'm now able to control Max when he is done and he no longer walks over to Cooper's bowl.

The bigger issue is during play time. And I don't think it's only with bully sticks. It seems to be with any toy.

We had different problems because we had a older, mellow dog and Ziva who is alpha. I got way to involved in their arguments at first (clapping loudly and yelling NO!) and caused things to escalate. now I feed them separately, make them work for treats, Chewies in their respective crates only.Dealt with the worst issues and ignored the rest by turning my back and leaving the room (Ziva tells Lucy off and bites at her when Lucy doesn't get up fast enough or barks at a visitor!)

My Tinkerbell is soooo OCD with toys! The only thing I did that worked was getting the hide- a - squirrel toy, bc of the 3 look alikes, but now I have 3, so 9 squirrels in all. Noticed her OCD went down a bit, as she found she couldn't control all the squirrels, all the time and she gets confused so therefore less focused on one.

I can't give anytype of chew toys, bc Peek is OCD with them and fights will break out.

They're great when I give them treats out of my hand. So far, anyway. They all sit around me and wait their turn.

Mine are fine when I give treats out of my hand. They sit nicely. I think my biggest concern is that Cooper is warning Max when he wants to be alone and Max is ignoring him and being a playful little puppy.

It sounds like Cooper guards "high value" objects, like food and bully sticks.

I would just separate them when they eat, and keep them separated if you give them bully sticks. You may want to consider not giving bully sticks at all if/until this behavior stops.

Separating them during those times may fix the problem right there. Also, I would start interrupting their play regularly so they get used to it. You can use the "Settle" command. You can try keeping a can of pennies on hand as well, or a cup of ice water.

A few things on Drop It:

- You can try teaching "Take It" first, and then you get Drop It for free when you give him a treat. Teach him to take his ball, then he has to drop it for food.

- You can simply increase the value of the treat you will give him for Drop It. Try tiny bits of steak, for instance.

- For the ball, don't reward him for hanging on to it. For most dogs, an ideal game of fetch is: you throw the ball, he chases it; you chase after him, he runs away; you and he have a tug fight over the ball; and eventually when he's ready, you throw the ball for him again. You need to teach him that if he doesn't Drop It, you don't throw it again.

- All that being said, if he really wants something, he may not Drop It, so I would consider management and other strategies to prevent fights.

Max has been confined for 2 weeks because he hurt his leg, so their play is both very supervised and limited. Cooper is "coin can trained", but I wanted to try reward training with him. The other issue with the coins is that I cannot use that to separate them. It puts Cooper into a complete state of fear and does nothing for Max, so therefore I'm only punishing Cooper. It's not really fair.

Also because Max just hurt his leg I'm using bully sticks to keep them independent, which seems to be working except for the occasional fight.

Cooper's ball game is retrieving it and dropping it an inch from your hand while still keeping his chin on the ball. He's now trained to "back up" and he backs up so you can get the ball. It's a race to the ball. :rolleyes: I feel that is the game. He enjoys it, so we play it.

I will work a little harder with the training. I've been trying new techniques for a couple of days.

this is a very interesting helpful thread. I'm learning a lot of good things I can use with my girls. They listen when I say time out when they are getting to ruff. But we need more work on the drop it.

I'm learning a lot too. The drop it will have to wait so I can work on the fighting. I've been protecting Max because he's a puppy and smaller than Cooper but now tonight I'm really seeing that he is instigating Cooper. Tonight Cooper was chewing on a bone and Max walked right over to him and interrupted him. I was able to say NO to Max instead of telling Cooper to behave.

I'm sorry to hear you are dealing with this! I know how frustrating it can be. Levi is kind of like Max; we always call him "the instigator." He is playful all the time and doesn't really understand that every person or dog he meets doesn't want to play with him all day long. My younger brother's dog, whom we live with, is so patient and awesome with Levi...but we've definitely come across other dogs who are more aggressive with him.

I agree with keeping them separated while they eat. My older brother has one very food-aggressive dog, so they feed all of their dogs exclusively in their crates so they are eating at the same time, but separately. I believe they get long-lasting treats (like bully sticks) only in their crates as well.

As far as the "drop it" command - I, for some reason, could not get Levi respond to the words "drop it." We switched to the word "out," and that has worked much better for us (which really doesn't make sense, as the tactics are the same). We started by trading the "dropped" item for a treat. He's also learned that when I say out, I refuse to tug on a toy/chew/item he isn't supposed to have, so it becomes less of a game to him. Once I start with the "out," he either spits it out immediately, or calms down and holds it (and apparently just waits for me to offer him a treat...crazy little monster :)).

Sorry this ended up so long!!! I hope things get better! I know Cooper and Max really do love each other!

Something also to keep in mind is that older dogs generally take it upon themselves to teach puppies their p's and q's. Maybe that's what's happening here to a certain extent, but it's concerning that Cooper is actually locking on. If Cooper just air snapped, I don't think that would be a big deal.

Older males sometimes tend to bully male puppies also.

If you want to use more positive techniques, you can have them "Settle" while playing. After a minute or two, walk in between them, have them both sit, and give them a treat. Then you can say "Go Play" to release them.

You'll need to practice this regularly during normal play. If Cooper really gets his dander up, he's going to have a hard time listening to you.

Thanks everyone. Feeding time is not an issue at all. Starting last night I fed Cooper first and Max sat and waited. I really do think it made Cooper feel better.

They chewed bully sticks last night. Max likes to leave his sometimes and walk up to Cooper and grab his. This is when the problem starts, however I told Max no and redirected him. Cooper felt protected.

There were no issues at all last night.

I'm not sure the "OUT" command will work because Cooper knows that as going outside. I can think of something else though.

I'll try the Settle command.

Also, I'm not finding this terribly frustrating. I just need some training direction. Cooper never really has been trained, so I'm not sure why I expected things to go perfectly when I brought home another dog. However, I'm still so very pleased with the way they interact except for the occasional fight.

Update
 

There has not been a fight since I posted this thread. Thank you everyone. Apparantly it was me who needed the training:cool:

Glad things are going better. I have to feed Lucy and Ringo separately. Ringo inhales his food and would bully his way over to Lucy's if I allowed it. So, we feed them in separate rooms and just quit worrying about it.

Small, boring bones and treats are no problem; they will trade it back and forth for hours. One will take it from the other and then lay it down; then the other will pick it up and so on and so forth.

For really good treats like bully sticks ~ those have to be eaten in their crates. Because they will fight over those. Lucy has to have Ringo's and then he gets mad and tries to hoard both of them . . . it's just not worth it. Now I save the bully sticks for when they have to go in their crates for some reason.

But Ringo is probably way more dominant than Cooper. Lucy is very submissive so there are few skirmishes. Poor Lucy. But she loves Ringo so I think she is happy???

Max inhales his food, but I am there at every feeding. When he's done he comes and sits with me and doesn't bother Cooper anymore. But, tonight he went towards Cooper and Cooper turned the corner towards Max and gave him his ugly face snarl. It could have escalated but did not. I redirected them both.

I suppose the bickering between 2 dogs is quite common. I'm starting to pick up better signals of when i think the aggression will start. If Cooper is sitting eating a bully stick and Max walks over to him, it will be a problem. But if Cooper brings the bully to Max and hangs it in his face it's ok. I'm trying to teach Max to give Cooper space and trying to teach Cooper that Max is ok and not to get upset with him. So far I haven't needed to separate them, however I'm always around.

Both of your dogs sound happy. It doesn't seem like Lucy minds all that much. With Max being just a puppy I'm not sure what roll he plays yet but I keep telling Cooper he's the alpha king.

Haha. Cooper IS the Alpha King. And I would support him in that role for a while. But what if Max end up being the Alpha King? They will eventually figure it out. Ringo IS the alpha king. But he allows Lucy to have ALL the toys. If I throw one, he will let her get it first - even though he is faster and stronger. Can't figure that one out. Oh well, it's fun!

I think my boys would kill bystanders for their toys. Neither would let the other have anything. Having 2 dogs is such a new relationship for me and for them. It'll take some time to learn everyone's roles.

Oh, I'll bet they will learn to share (now maybe not a juicy piece of steak or anything). But, remember, Lucy has been year over a year now. Her first three months here were a living HE!! for everyone. Now they are mainly just funny.

But, every now and then Ringo will get a look in his eye (usually late at night when Lucy still wants to play and he wants to sleep) and that look is scary. That's usually when I pick up Lucy and go to bed!

This exact thing just happened! Cooper is resting and Max hit him with his paw. A little growl, a little stare and now we are going to bed!

That's great. This is really the key, I think. Keep them both listening to you before they get too excited.

Sounds like Max is still learning the ropes. I think ultimately it will be better for him to have his older brother teach him good canetiquette (get it? Canine etiquette. HA!).