Recommend a Barking Collar?

[maddiesdad]

Maddie is a barker. A bad one.

She will bark when there is a real issue. For example, there was a bird in our chimney last week and she bark relentlessly at the fireplace. I'm okay with that because its normal for a dog to bark at a situation like that.

She will also bark at windows, lamps, dust particles, and any other non threatening, innanimate object that she sees. The barking is loud, shrill, and incessant. It has become a serious problem because my wife, who is pregnant, sleeps during the day to work at night. Maddie will bark through the day keeping her awake. Her bark is loud and shrill enough to actually hurt our ears.

We have tried ignoring her barking, rewarding her silence, distracting her when she's barking, loud noises, cans of pennies, spray bottles of water, spray bottles with vinegar and water, and the last resort was an ultrasonic collar.

The collar worked for about 15 minutes. She has gotten used to the sound however and could care less about it. our problem with it was two fold. First, it was horribly inconsistent. It would sometimes not go off when she was barking and other times go off when she was just playing. Second, Julie our pug is not a barker so we do not want to punish her with the noise of the collar.

I am now faced with getting a static collar. It was not where I wanted to go but we have exhausted all options. I have not consisdered the citronella collar because of the lack of reaction on Maddies part to being sprayed with water and vinegar. I want a collar that will be sensitive enough to go off with her barks but smart enough to know its her bark and not just a loud noise.

I realize that many of you dislike these collars and they are not my favorites either but we have exhausted the avenues available to us and need to solve this problem. Maddie is nearly 10 pounds and should be able to wear a collar made for a smaller dog. The collar will be used in supervised settings for training only. If anyone has any recommendations I would appreciate it.

[Hamoth]

We have tried ignoring her barking, rewarding her silence, distracting her when she's barking, loud noises, cans of pennies, spray bottles of water, spray bottles with vinegar and water, and the last resort was an ultrasonic collar.

I think that could be a large part of your problem...sprays, vinegar, cans, ultrasonic, and even the misty citrinella stuff, all just startle and temorarily stop the barking. Once they get used to that, it' not effective. No annoying mechanical device will stop a Yorkie from doing exactly as it pleases, lol.

How long did you continue the "ignoring" treatment? That's the most effective. Rewarding quiet is good too, ***IF*** they know why they are being rewarded. Does she know how to be silent on command? Have you tought her to "speak" on command for treats?

Have you evaluated your dog's dominant tendencies to see if you have an alpha pup on your hands? (those are fiercly territorial and will bark a LOT to keep their property staked out)

Is your dog barking out of boredom? I mean, does your dog bark incessently while you are playing, or only when you finally sit down to do something? If it's boredom barking or attention seeking, then the tin-cans, sprays and all that jazz really did you a major diservice. You then tought the pup that if they bark you will interact with them and someting new and interesting will happen.

If you tried ignoring and caved, you taught the dog to bark longer and longer and to sweat it out...eventually you will come...

I speak on this from experience. My dog was a BAD barker. We got this totally under control (mostly) by learning to close the shades in the living room, reduce his pack status, and ignore attention seeking barking. I also tought him speak to turn on the barking, and hush to turn it off. Once he understood being rewarded for "hush" it really came together for us. If he barks at me out of insolence when we are training, he gets no treat for whatever he did, I tell him hush, and if he's quiet for 3 seconds, he gets a big treat. If, on the other hand it persists, the game ends and I come in here and start reading. He "chases me off" with his barking. When he wants attention, why would he want to do that eh?

However, these things did not work right away...It's been about 1 month so far of working on his barking and though it's reduced, it's not gone. Also, I knew to look out for somethign called an Extinction Burst. When you ignore hte barking and it starts going CRAZY barking, then you know you are on the right track. Think of somone who goes into an elevator and pushes the button for their floor. Nothing happens. Most people will continue to push that button (harder and harder) before giving up. When your dog seem frantic for the old barking routine to get your attention, that means you are actually on the right track. They are just about to give up.

Of course, always set your pup of for success. Go outside during the day and practice speak - hush, turning the barking off and on. If you use a clicker, there are lots and lots of great articles on this.

. Maddie is nearly 10 pounds and should be able to wear a collar made for a smaller dog.

The collar issue with Yorkies is not about their size. That's a common misconception. It's actually an issue with a genetic flaw that's very common, and currently undetectable until it becomes a problem. My 18 lb yorkie has this flaw and cannot wear a collar. If your stops what they are doing sometimes in the middle of an exiting game and coughs / honks / chokes, then you should probably avoid collars too.

You can also perform a trachea massage to determine if there are already complications in your dog's throat from this defect.

Sadly, you can't know if your dog caries this defect until there is a problem. Breeders can not detect it, so coming freom a good breeder doesn't help either.

[maddiesdad]

Thanks for the reply. Maddie has been barking like this for a few months. She sometimes barks out of boredom but that is typically not the problem. Her boredom barking is short lived as she usually finds something else to occupy her rather quickly.

The barking we tend to have a problem with seems to be more about what might be going on outside. She barks running from window to window or from the vacuum to the fan or whatever else in the room seems to bother her. She is not at all an alpha dog. One of the first things she does once she is comfortable with a stranger (person or dog) is roll over onto her back and spread her limbs. Our pug, who is not exactly super dominant, easily dominates Maddie.

We can ignore her barking for about ten minutes before it literally becomes too physically painful to ignore. We tried that for a week without any difference at all. We also tried acknowledging the barking by saying "What is it?", going to her and praising her when she's quiet. It never really worked at all. She ignores all commands and attention when she's in a barking fit. Its almost like we're not there. We really have to yell to get her attention.

Pennies in a can never really worked. The vinegar water worked very briefly but straight water never worked. The sonic collar was useless because of its sporatic behavior. She didn't like it but because it was unpredictable, she never got the message that the sound was punishment for barking.

She does know speak. Oddly enough, we can never get a full clear bark out of her when she speaks for a treat. The best we get is a slightly muffled woof. Lately we've been going to her with treats when she barks. We say quiet. When she is quiet for 3 seconds I give her a treat and praise. When she starts barking again I do the same but require 6 seconds of quiet and so on. After half a week it still hasn't gotten to the point where she has a clue what the work quiet means.

I know she's not that dense. She picks up other tricks and commands in 2-3 10 minute training sessions at the longest.

I didn't realize the issue with the throat. I will definitely watch her now for hacking before we get a collar.

[Hamoth]

We can ignore her barking for about ten minutes before it literally becomes too physically painful to ignore. We tried that for a week without any difference at all.

I hate to say this, but you are going to have to endure. 10 minutes is not at all sufficient for the ignoring treatment. You gotta be prepared to deal with barking for HOURS on end for about month to get this behavior to go away. It will get worse around week 2, then week 3 shows a dramatic improvment (if your pup is like mine in that regard).

The reason that silence is being so hard to learn is that you have quite consistently rewarded barking behavior with attention and concern of various kinds including some negative things that will add a lot of anxiety to the mix. But on the other hand your ignoring is very inconsistent and short-lived. You have indeed taught your dog to keep barking to eventually get your attention. Your pup will need to unlearn all of that, and that's what makes this hard. 1 month of barking or a lifetime, that's the choice you are facing in my opinion.

In my opinion, A barking collar will not be effective in your case. It will just make things worse. I suggest a good pair of ear-plugs...a lot of patience, and the determination to stick with 1 treatment that you can chose based one evaluation of your dog and the methods there are out there.

The barking we tend to have a problem with seems to be more about what might be going on outside. She barks running from window to window or from the vacuum to the fan or whatever else in the room seems to bother her.

Like she's defending her territory from it? Even if it's imaginary threats?

She does know speak. Oddly enough, we can never get a full clear bark out of her when she speaks for a treat. The best we get is a slightly muffled woof.

Try saying "Speak", then knocking on the front door. Watch with wonder as the barking is unleashed. After about a week, you won't need to knock to get the barking going.

After half a week it still hasn't gotten to the point where she has a clue what the work quiet means.

Well, you sound like a reasonable person...you know the dog is smart...but she isn't learning "quiet" you might want to up the value of your reward, add the clicker-training (if you have not already)...Clicker lets you easily tell the dog exactly WHAT behavior is being rewarded. It bookmarks the thing that's getting the treat. For example...

"chewy, Speak!"
"bark, bark bark abrk...long pause....bark bark bark!" CLICK - Treat.
Good boy!
"Bark bark bark!"
"Chewy, hush!" (happy voice...)
"murfle...woooorrrrrr..bark bark bark..."
waiting...Eventually,
long silence...CLICK - Treat.
"Good hush!"

Repeat 30 times a day. 10 in the morning, 10 noon, 10 night, or more. I find doing longer sessions with Chewy helps him learn faster. For shake, the first day he got it, I had him do it 60 times in a row, treating him no matter how sloppy it was. The next day he knew it still and continues to do well with it.

The more valuable the treat, the more effective hte behavior and the more willing the dog will be to learn. Steak pieces but into small chunks the sizes of raisens are GREAT training tools for thos hard to grasp behaviors.

She is not at all an alpha dog. One of the first things she does once she is comfortable with a stranger (person or dog) is roll over onto her back and spread her limbs.

Mmm. She might not be alpha with strangers, but have you evaluated if she is alpha to you?

[Marie]

Gucci is also a barker. She only barks when she hears a noise no stop. She doesn't bark when we are outside on her walks. I have tried praising her when she quiets down, but this only works for a little while. Sometimes she wouldn't even stop barking for a treat. I noticed thou that her barking is bad days when she seems anxious. Anxious about what, i dont know. Last nite she was barking and barking, but today she will quiet down when I tell her to Hush.
Good luck maddiesdad with Maddie. I dont like barking collars either.I have tried the spray bottle, can of pennies and hitting the wall with a magazine but it only startles(sp?) her her for a little while and she will keep barking.
I know Im doing something wrong, I will appreciate any ideas and tips.
I got this info about barking in the ASPCA website.

[Passionfruition]

Originally Posted by maddiesdad

I am now faced with getting a static collar. It was not where I wanted to go but we have exhausted all options. I have not consisdered the citronella collar because of the lack of reaction on Maddies part to being sprayed with water and vinegar. I want a collar that will be sensitive enough to go off with her barks but smart enough to know its her bark and not just a loud noise.

I realize that many of you dislike these collars and they are not my favorites either but we have exhausted the avenues available to us and need to solve this problem. Maddie is nearly 10 pounds and should be able to wear a collar made for a smaller dog. The collar will be used in supervised settings for training only. If anyone has any recommendations I would appreciate it.

Sully has been trained on a static collar, on a very low setting. Because of it, he is NOT a barker! He has gotten to the point to where all he has to do is here the collar turn on (it beeps one long beep) and he knows he better NOT bark.

I am not a cruel mommy. I love my yorkie - everyone knows that. Every other behaviour is reinforced with treats and love and praise. But since we live in such a tight condo community, we can't afford to have neighbors complaining to the regime about barking. We knew this and so we trained Sully not to bark from the start.

I bought Sully's bark collar on eBay for about 50 bucks. Eli and I joke that it's one of the best 50 bucks we ever spent. But Sully is so good with his barking these days that he very rarely even wears his bark collar anymore! It's been wonderful.

They say that even on the higher setting, this collar only equals to a startling tap on the nose with a newspaper. It's very gentle, but oh boy it gets the job done. PM me if you want to talk more about this.

[Hamoth]

Double post...deleted.

[maddiesdad]

Hamoth,thanks so much for your thorough replies!

My biggest concern right now is my wife's health as a result of her loss of sleep from the barking. She sleeps upstairs, with the door closed, wearing earplugs and Maddie still wakes her up from a sound sleep every day. I'm a little worried that a month's worth of training may be too long for us to stand.

I really must say though that her barking does not seem to be a plea for attention. When we approach her, even with a calming or cheery voice, while she is barking, she runs from us. She puzzles me.

I will try to work on ignoring her but it is sometimes simply impossible. The frequency at which she barks is ear piercing sometimes and a few minutes of it would drive Mother Teresa to murder.

[Hamoth]

she runs from us.

AN invitation to play.

Does she run like 6 feet then stop and look back at you, then stiffen her forelegs and lark so hard he butt scoots off the ground? If so, that' an order to play and an authority challenge.

Sleep is VITAL to health. As a psuedo-narcoleptic-wierdo-sleep-disorder guy, I understand this very well. My dog learned REALLY fast not to disrupt my sleep.

NIGHTBARKING is a WHOLE other bag of worms. This opens an entirely new round of questions, if you don't mind...

1. Does your dog bark at night? At which hours?

2. Really, who's dog is this?

3. Do you all share hte same sleep schedule? Detail this...

4. How often and how long are walks?

5. What is your dog's Canine I.Q?

6. How does your dog rate in dominance?

7. How much does your dog eat? What does it eat?

8. How old is your dog?

9. Is your dog crate trained?

10. Is your dog an indoor potty-pup or outdoor?

[Hickey007]

From what I have heard I don't think ignoring her is going to stop the behavior, but I could be wrong. We had a mouse in the house about 3 weeks ago that the cat brought it (stupid cat...). Anyway it ran under the fridge and Reagan sat by the fridge barking for literally 7-8 hours, until my husband got home to get it. I didn't at all reward the behavior as a matter of fact most of the time I was on my bed hoping that the mouse just stayed in the kitchen (yes I know I'm a chicken, I did get a little more brave as the day went on). One time we rented a small track hoe and whne they delivered it they set it in the corner of the property and barked at it for at least half an hour until I went down and showed it to her, showed her it was ok.

This sounds more to me like the type of barking you are having. Whether it be that she is protecting you/her home/her/whatnot or that she is scared of something. Either way I really don't think ignoring it is going to work. I can understand that ignoring would help the attention getting barking but if the dog isn't barking at you she doesn't care if you ignore her. What I have done in my situation is to respond to the barking and show her that everything is ok or even reward her for letting me know what's going on outside. If the dog is protecting you or your home you should reward her and tell her that she did a good job and let her know that its ok, the leaves rustling around outside aren't going to hurt anything and in most cases in my house this has calmed Reagan down. Yelling or freaking out or anything like that is just escalating the situation, you are showing her that there is definately something to be concerned about and she will continue barking, so I would avoid this.

I have never used the collar on my yorkie I do have one for my bigger dogs and wanted to say how it worked. It senses vibration(or at least the one I have does). So it goes on the dog's neck and when it barks its neck vibrates and it will give it a warning that will turn into a shock if the dog doesn't stop. So it will not confuse other loud noises with her barking and shock her for it. Sometimes when they are playing rough though the collar could be moved around and this may cause it to go off. How you test it is to run the prongs against something with texture so by it dragging around the dogs neck it could go off. I've been zapped by a barking collar, an electric fence wire, and a underground fence collar, all of which one or all of my big dogs use. And no if it didn't kill me it won't kill them. The worst is the fence, but my vet recommended me putting that in to keep my dog in my backyard and away from moving cars. I would read the instructions carefully and definately talk to passionfruit to make sure you really want to use it and that you are doing it correctly.

[maddiesdad]

Does she run like 6 feet then stop and look back at you, then stiffen her forelegs and lark so hard he butt scoots off the ground? If so, that' an order to play and an authority challenge.

She runs but I don't get the impression she wants to play. Her play running is a bit different. She's running because she doesn't want us to distract her I think.

Sleep is VITAL to health. As a psuedo-narcoleptic-wierdo-sleep-disorder guy, I understand this very well. My dog learned REALLY fast not to disrupt my sleep.

NIGHTBARKING is a WHOLE other bag of worms. This opens an entirely new round of questions, if you don't mind...

1. Does your dog bark at night? At which hours?

Rarely barks at night. She sleeps in her crate. Occassionally she'll bark for a few moments then quiet down. On a handful of occassions she has barked and not stopped at night. When that happens she is bannished into another bedroom (in her crate) after an hour of barking. We do take her out first to make usre she doesn't have to go.

2. Really, who's dog is this?

She's my wife's dog primarily but I don't think that Maddie heavily favors her. We got her when we moved into our new house so its not like she had time with my wife first.

3. Do you all share hte same sleep schedule? Detail this...

Nope. My wife works three 12 hour night shifts a week. Maddie always sleeps at night in a crate with me or with me and my wife when she's not working. Whe she is working. The dogs play in the dining room (only room without cords) for most of the day and spend a couple of hours in their crates. My wife generally wakes up once or twice during the day to take them out.

4. How often and how long are walks?

There are a minimum of 2 15 minute walks a day. Sometimes up to 4 or 5. We walk around the neighborhood. We would walk longer but by 15 minutes, Maddie and Julie are already wrestling and they just want to get in and play.

5. What is your dog's Canine I.Q?

I have no idea. How can I find out?

6. How does your dog rate in dominance?

On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being alpha, I'd say she's a 4 or 5. And that's only because she's so enthusiastic about play. She does not openly try to dominate us at all.

7. How much does your dog eat? What does it eat?

Blue Buffalo food. 1/2 cup in morning and at night. She also gets baby carrots as treats and some other low cal treats during the day

8. How old is your dog?

8 months

9. Is your dog crate trained?

She won't go in her crate so in that sense, yes. We did crate train her for a while to jumpstart housetraining but we felt her energy level was too high to keep her in the crate for extended periods.

10. Is your dog an indoor potty-pup or outdoor?

She's SUPPOSED to be outdoor. She does still have frequent accidents.

[maddiesdad]

Originally Posted by Hickey007

From what I have heard I don't think ignoring her is going to stop the behavior, but I could be wrong. We had a mouse in the house about 3 weeks ago that the cat brought it (stupid cat...). Anyway it ran under the fridge and Reagan sat by the fridge barking for literally 7-8 hours, until my husband got home to get it. I didn't at all reward the behavior as a matter of fact most of the time I was on my bed hoping that the mouse just stayed in the kitchen (yes I know I'm a chicken, I did get a little more brave as the day went on). One time we rented a small track hoe and whne they delivered it they set it in the corner of the property and barked at it for at least half an hour until I went down and showed it to her, showed her it was ok.

This sounds more to me like the type of barking you are having.

That's not the type of barking I'm worried about and there is a noticeable difference in her when she is barking at something and when she is nuisance barking. When we had the bird in the chimney she stationed herself in front of the fireplace and barked all day. That's what a terrier is supposed to do so I have no problem with that. The barking that is problematic is at nothing in particular or things that I know she really isn't afraid of.

[Hickey007]

Originally Posted by maddiesdad

That's not the type of barking I'm worried about and there is a noticeable difference in her when she is barking at something and when she is nuisance barking. When we had the bird in the chimney she stationed herself in front of the fireplace and barked all day. That's what a terrier is supposed to do so I have no problem with that. The barking that is problematic is at nothing in particular or things that I know she really isn't afraid of.

Hmm...I see, I read about her barking at the vacuum and window and took it differently. But reading this "things that I know she really isn't afraid of", it does make more sense. Not more sense as in I know what to do but more sense in I understand your problem better. Reagan would bark at everything early on, but it was more so things that were new and she was usure of, I think we gave her more confidence and she doesn't bark as much anymore.

Honestly though if you are sure that she isn't barking to get your attention I think some form of training is going to be needed, whether it be a collar or something else. I can say on my big dog the collar has worked great. We were turned in at my old house so we had to do something about it and it worked. I have never used it on a small dog though so just be sure to do your research(as you are now doing).

[Hamoth]

We might be dealing with a very intelligent dog who is bored stiff. Maybe...

Try a Canine IQ test...Here:

http://www.superdogs.com/documents/S...0IQ%20Test.pdf

Another possibility is that your dog has OCD...

OCD often manifests itself in dogs who are stressed, anxious, or bored, and can be a very maddening experience for the owner. These behaviors can often result in destruction of items, yards, angry neighbours, and seemingly uncontrollable aggression. Obsessive digging, continuous biting at their own feet, barking at nothing, attacking inanimate objects, all are symptoms of OCD.

http://dogs.about.com/cs/disableddogs/a/ocd.htm

In fact, the more I read, the more your dog sounds like a compulsive barker. Is the barking rythmic / evenly timed?

At what age did you aquire this dog? Any possibility fo bad socialization or abuse / isolation?

I'm wondering also if this is frustration for a need to assert dominance being blocked by fear. At 8 months most pups will start doing everything they can to get as much social status as possible. It might be that your 4-5 point pup wants to be a 10 and is getting mad at their own fear.

It might be a bad call, but you could try having the dog sleep in your bed, feeding them first, and letting them win more games of tug...just to improve her self assurance and confidence.

[maddiesdad]

I think you may have something with ocd. At think that and a need for even more exercise than she already gets may be the problem.

I don't believe she is stressed from separation anxiety because she'll even bark in a crate. I don't think she really wants to be an alpha dog because of how willingly submissive she is. Its sort of comical actually. She is also not the typical fraidy cat. She is very curious and although she is very cautious and a little skiddish with new things, with few exceptions (vacuum cleaner) she will investigate new items and people. She's very enthusiastic about meeting dogs. She does a rollover onto her back almost as soon as she meets them to entice them to play.

I really don't think she's a super smart dog. I don't think she's stupid but we've tried the treat test before and she was less than impressive. I'll try the rest of the test though.