It is okay when someone is passionate about their training methods. What I dont understand is why they cant just explain why theirs works rather than just tearing down someone elses methods. Ive even seen where people on here have suggested using the change in the can method for barking problems and even though its been effective for many members it gets torn down. I just think anyone should be able to share their training method. This isnt like some subjects where their is one definitive answer. What training doesnt work on one dog might work for another

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

The problem with both Ceser and Brenda. Let me make it clear I have worked in a class using my dog as a guinne pig in the session is that both flood. Been in two seminars with brenda. I spent the whole time making sure she kept away from my dog as she was is far to rough. Even her t touch is not right and acrruste and she been asked to stop using the method by Linda and her sister. ( Brenda wants to talk to me or go after me for the comment above have at it happy to see you in a court of law. it is not slandour when it is the truth.)

With all to many dogs including mine flooding causes a panic attack which causes the dog to shut down and then learning stops. fear grows and we have much biger mess then we started with.

Or you get a dog that will do it but in a manner that clearly reads fear and more fear but as they do not want to be punished continue forward.
Fear is not a state for a dog to live in as it causes cortasol and cortisal kills.


but then again as long as the dog does what you want when you want not matter what and no matter if he is happy of not who cares.

Instead of flood what needs to be done is long term actually desesiting work which takes days and even months to work just outside the range a dog starts to get concerned and build comfort level or get closer to the object that is feared.

Reason most time we do not say what we do diffent is that you rather things wham bam thank you and the dog "corrected" then take the time to learn to do it slow and steady. We all tend to except our dogs to be more perfect than even we are all the time and now.
What ever tequines one uses it should be done with the fact that science says that which you bring attention to you get more of and if you are always yapping at your dog for doing things bad and it is the only attention it gets even bad it will do that behaviour more. Catching them rewarding them for doing and being good is a faster safe methid to train.


JL

Desensitization is gradually having a dog gets use to an environment or specific stimulus in tiny little steps, flooding, on the other hand, is just throwing them into the environment and not letting them out of it until they calm down. The techniques I saw Cesar use was a mixture of desensitization and counter-conditioning, which basically is teaching a different task to get the dogs mind elsewhere, and it was rewarded for this. So one could call this "positive reinforcement". A good trainer should be able to read a dogs language, and KNOW when the stimulus is too intense for the animal, and would then break this up in smaller session, and Cesar does this. The important thing here is you can't leave counter-conditioning out of the picture, and Cesar primary focus is to get the animal in a proper mood or way of being. This in itself is intrinsically rewarding, which is the best reward of all, and causes the strongest learning. For more information see: http://www.newhopecattledogs.com/for...ING%20FEAR.pdf

Catching them for being good and rewarding them, seems a little difficult with dogs, although I do think this works well with children. You can praise your children when they are playing nicely and sharing, but how do you praise a dog all the time? Saying "good boy" isn't that effective, if you are always saying it. Most dogs, are good 99% of the time, well 98% of the time for Yorkies. :D

Thank you for the feedback about Brenda, I do appreciate it. I love her book on doggie body language so much that I am going to stick with her approach for now, but I will definitely keep what you said in mind.

I feel like all of us must have seen different eppy's of Cesar because the reactions differ so much. I believe I've seen Cesar use flooding all the time - in half the episodes I've watched, I saw him alpha roll a dog that was going through parxysms of fear/rage and say that he WANTED the dog to struggle as much as possible before they gave up. It was almost like watching an exorcism.

I do believe in "catch the animal doing something right" and that's how I've managed to teach most of what Thor knows. OTOH, I decided to try the clicker again today. I broke it out and "charged" it with thirty+ clicks and treats. Thor was better than he was six months ago, by which I mean that he did not head for the hills on the click, but sat ten feet away from me and shook every time he heard the click. I guess I will be sticking with "good boy" for now.

Ok two things yes Brenda's book on body language is amazing and I like the pictures better then some of the drawing in other books
But have a look as well at Turid Rugrass book with it just to complete the picture it is call On talking terms with dogs. ( I look up the title as I can never for the life of me spel her name right. Truid is the start point for calming signals and it very much easier to read and grasp and solid.

Second ceser does use flooding it just done mainly off camera but if you do see the epsoide on the thumder storm search dog fearful that is flooding and also one on the dogs not wanting to go on slipper floors that is flooding.

Also the one that got him nailed from the human behaviourist is the one he floods a aussie that is afraid of childern by having the dog jump over his kid. Big time flooding.
Alpha rolls no dog ever gets up saying yippy lets do it again. You do it on my dog she gone in the brain and she will not be back for days and she may not come back.

As for the clicker if he is worried about it find a word. I tend wrongly to use yes as we use it to much but if I am in the middle of hanging on for dear life as my dog is setting to go off and getting treats in the word works to get food in rapid fire. I drop the word if we are in a very tight situation and just feed. If I can feed fast enough to get us away from a fool with a on coming dog that is "freindly" than we did good.

Rule of thumb is feed in anyway what you want to see again. So that can be with actual food or even just kind words.

Nancy his fancy words actually are not correctly applied to what he is actually doing. Some of these aggressive guys do not have the abitity to ever focus on anything else until you work them long and hard outside the trigger zone. If you are working in the zone they are frantic, unable to focus on you, dancing around that is flooding not desesitization at all. Flatout flodding. drat speeling going south ling week hang in will try to keep in so you can understand desesitization is only done in calm and when the dog can sit or down or be still on it own wnd not made to. It got to be the dog not the handler doing it for the dog. Ceser all to often makes or does it for the dog.
That builds fear in the dog not good learning.

So out side that frantic action you catch him trying to look at you or sit and praise or reward that stuffing out of that and teach the dog that this is what you want and only get closer once he can give yo look at me calm always.
Now that said my girl can not never has she will dance and spin if you try to get her near a dog and if you push she explodes and the mind is gone.
So then what...we work out of the zone on trusting me that I will get her by her fears. TWo words now do it. now by..... she can look at the dog she can even bark as long as she keeps moving with me right passed the dog. She can she will stop once by te dog look at me and go I did it pee a stress pee and ask for a treat. but if I try to treat her as she goes by her mind is so in panic that treas have to wait. Now this is only for when we get cornered by a dog and can not get passed or away.
This is 7 years in of heavy rehab and we can go to a dog show she not showing she can hang in the car... in the cool and be ok to take out pee and put back in with out and blown up.

This girl should not be in the world as a long time freind and former vet tec taht I say the other day reminded My girl. "sweetie you are a lucky girl by rights you should be died. NO reason non that you are alive except that you mum will not give up." I get this everytime someone that has not seen her since we got back west sees her. they can not believe she still here and doing so well.
Problem is with flooding is you kill a behaviour but you do not tend to replace it with something well enough or in a not mushy cause I got flooded or rolled mind that it sticks for long.

JL

Actually it works well we have a jumper and she licks not my brat will kill you dog but a tough girl anyway to change behaviour.
Everyone was telling her off and down and no and pushing her except me.
Now the family caught on very quick ( her family) that with me she lay down and I rewrd her with what she wanted which was lots and lots and lots of cuddles and pats. The owner started doing the same as soon as she saw her think or stop action just before she jumped up she praised the stuffing out of the wee girl... she drop to her tummy and wiggle like she just been given the moon. Now without a cue at all she drops infornt of yo uand waits for you to fawn on her.

Another dog big boy and with the tendecy to grab your hand and get a little aggressive. again everyone noing landing on the bad and never noticing he is just confused.

I turn my back on him or I hold my hands so he could not grab. once he planet his butt he got a pat not on hte head as he reach to grab but on the shoulder to which he leans into you.

Same dog afraid of going up the ramp into the back of the truck, big blow by others. me no clicker just treats and praise up he goes in steps first no the ground up nad down then just on the stairs into the house then up the ramp. Now it simple I just say ramp and up he goes. This is shaping.

need more.

JL

I not looking to debate I am happy to teach but when someone comes roaring in here like a trainer is sainted without any science behind it, I am going to go hang on science says flooding and aplha is not a good start or end point for training.
DVM behaviourist and PHD behaviourist the Humane soicety as well as the regular vets are coming away from dominace training and managment of dogs. AS I posted a while ago your regualer vets by their govening assoiciations in the United States have been ordered not to use or recommend usage of these methods do to the fact they do harm and when done it is tough to repair. They can be reported to their governing body if they do recomend it.
Where ars gentle postive methods make it easier if a mistake is made to go back and fix it. It takes longer and in the long run works better and the effects stick..... usually but not in the case of a dog having a relapse or getting hurt and learning more fear if they are attacked again and caused to fear. then you are at square one again.

Also domince and alpha training does not take into concideration that some dogs like humans are chemically imbalaced in the brain and there for are not out to take over the world but truly can not cope or understanding what is taking place in the world. These dogs under dominace training will not make it.
Drugs and using them and a slow gentle method is the only appoarch for these dogs as even with training the switch can flip and they are not sure where they are. Only drugs can stablize them and help them stay in the world.
As I have a girl that can and will bite and is chemially challanged and she is still alive after soon to be 7 years and on top of that going blind young.
When I speak it is from the fight to keep a little one that should not be here alive against all odds and little help. I have learned this stuff under fire and with a dog that if I make a mistake pays for a long time. unless I knock her out with drugs. If that does not work it is a one way trip to the vets. Seriously we live with a vet on stand by more then once since christmas cause this girl is having a tough time. So when I get cranky just maybe that we are having an extra special hard day. It also means if you can think of aggression issuses a dog can have bet you this girls got it and then some.
Unless you are skilled an many of us are not including brenda and ceser you can not tell which are chemically challanged and which are not so it safe for all to go gentle then risk it.

JL

Yes, I've read Turid's book as well, which I liked very much. I read that one first, and then got to Brenda's which is like 100x more info. I think Brenda may have even written the forward for Turid's? In any case, Brenda repeatedly references Turid's work. Brenda may be too rough in practice, but in the two books I have, she advocates gentleness.

:thumbup:

Totally off topic, I'm not saying this to be mean, but I can never fully get through reading your posts because the grammar and wording is so terrible. I can't even take you seriously because you put periods and spaces in the wrong place, and skip words sometimes, and spell things wrong. I could care less about perfect grammar on the internet but I really just can't even get through yours without getting irritated. Thought I'd put that out there that maybe you could be taken more seriously if you wrote properly. I do apologize if English isn't your first language or something, however.

Not sure on the book thing my copy is an old one of as in first addition so maybe the lastest is with brenda.

I agree in the book she adocates gentle so that why I thought we would be ok taking my dog and in realtiy it was not.

So take the gentle stuff and if you go just becareful
Jl

Thanks for pointing out my short coming as I I said I was having a very tough spelling day.

I am learning disable and have trouble with spelling and getting that thing called grammer right and under exhaustion it gets tougher.
but if you think the words through and sound it out and give it a chance you will get it.

One of the leading animal PHDs is autistic and is well thought of so just cause I sometimes have a very rough day spelling and with grammer do not discount my worth or that I know that which I speak. Most learning disable people test of the charts in IQ.

If you can not be tolerant, move along and if you want to poke fun of me... off you go. your not willing to try to learn that is ok by me but that is not now nor ever called for you could have posted that nasty to me by a pm.

JL

As I said in my first post, I apologize if you didn't speak English, but clearly I was wrong in that sense. I never was poking fun and never would poke "fun" and I was just trying to point out something I noticed, but I was never making fun. I would never disrespect a disabled person as I have grown up around quite a few, one being highly autistic and I am amazed every day and inspired by what he can do. I see a lot of people who do NOT have learning disabilities type poorly on the internet and it's just hard for me to understand their posts and I thought you were no different. We disagree on training methods, but I would never poke fun at you or try and disrespect you. This thread got pretty heated and I was just irritated with the entire thing, lol. No disrespect.

To be completely honest, I wondered about that too. I thought perhaps English was not your first language. No disrespect intended, I love Temple Grandin! :) I am glad you mentioned it actually, it helps flesh out your perspective.

[B][QUOTE=Britster;2735024[/B]]Totally off topic, I'm not saying this to be mean, but I can never fully get through reading your posts because the grammar and wording is so terrible. I can't even take you seriously because you put periods and spaces in the wrong place, and skip words sometimes, and spell things wrong. I could care less about perfect grammar on the internet but I really just can't even get through yours without getting irritated. Thought I'd put that out there that maybe you could be taken more seriously if you wrote properly. I do apologize if English isn't your first language or something, however.[/QUOTE] I dont agree with this poster either but come on, dont make fun of people because of their grammar. You dont know the circumstances. I learned english in the 4th grade and my spelling is terrible. One of my daughters is a terrible speller and she is a second year Medical school student. She excels in math and science. Please dont take this wrong, it just shocked me to see you post this. Its just not you...:confused:

[quote=manolos mom;2735394][B]I can understand your spelling and posts though and as I said, I could care less about perfect grammar on the internet. It was just an observation I made. And I wasn't making fun of anyone, lol. Well, oh well, I apologized and what's said is done. It was just something I wondered about is all. I'm glad I now understand!

[quote=Britster;2735477] I know you have been upset, this was just not like you..

Training continues to succeed
 

Thanks to all who wrote to me encouraging me to keep on posting. Yorkie owners are the best, I think. We look forward to helping more of you to find balance with your beloved Yorkies.
We just finished working with a beautiful black chow mix. "Baggy" had some aggression issues, like snapping at visitors and going crazy when she saw other dogs. She also had a habit of letting people pet her but if they touched down her back, she would snap at them. Her owner said,"she is like a ticking time bomb ready to explode". Like we do with every dog, we first taught the owner and her daughter how to keep the dog in a calm submissive state during a walk. If a dog is just loose or on an extended leash wandering around, the brain is really not very engaged and in that state, the dog believes it is dominant and the pack leader. We model how to gently correct when the animal wants to pull or react to things. Within the first half hour of this new 'working' walk, dogs relax into the new routine and come home calm, and often, mentally exhausted. Owners stay in a calm assertive state and dogs stay calm and submissive. The burden is lifted from them and their brains are moving forward , getting into the zone, walking next to their owners at whatever pace the owner asks. We did this several sessions before the big visit to the pet store . We raised the interest of many other dog owners as we worked with Baggy to come into the store in a calm state, over and over again until it was nothing for her to walk in calmly, avoiding contact with any dogs she saw rather than going crazy and trying to get away to get to them. It was another success for us and for Baggy's owners.

If a dog is on an extend a lead and they are not listening it has more to do with the world being far more intresting and wonderful and safe then you are.
They would rather smell the ground and check out the pee signs than come back and pay attention and listen to those that are yanking and correcting.

Job is to make yourself the end on and be all by turning them out to sniff calling them back and then releasing them to go sniff again. Plus maybe add in a treat. Dogs think wow if I listen fast I get to go back and sniff and I get a treat man that is great but if I do not listen I have to stay here and no sniff. No corrections needed. Removal of the sniffing if they do not come fast is all you need.

As for pulling... dogs pull into what pulls them. Science. If I walk up and push you you will push back to stay balanced. If I walk up and pull you you will pull back ato stay balance it is in the genes and it got nothing to do with them controloing. You stop yanking they stop but it hard to unteach once they are pullers. that why a haed harness attached to the back of the head works for them to not pull nad they step back into it rather then pull. therefore no pulling.

Try reading excel-erated learning explaining how dogs learn and how best to teach them by Pamela Ried PHD
to quote her
Aversive Control of behaviour

"The use of adversive stimuli warrents a speical discussion for three reasons.
First exposing an animal to aversive sti,ulation produces emotional side effects that influence the learning process.
Second, slight changes in procedures can have a dramatic effect of the rate and extent of learning. And third, you can make a lot of mistakes using postive stimuli , such as food, and the worst thing that will happen is you might have a skinny or over wieght dog. If you screw up witj aversive stimuli, your dog gets tra umatized and/or hurt. It is your responsiblity to make sure you know exactly what you are doing if you decide to use aversive consequences."

JL

I must disagree so much with that response
 

That description on how to walk a dog makes no sense to me. I know that the training methods we use work and work well without hurting any dog, or owner, for that matter. We bring more joy and fun to the dog and its family and never do we do anything that puts the dogs in danger.
Psychological training balances the dog, making it happier and more relaxed. For those who are interested, you can read so much about it with Cesar Milan's book and watch him work on his show, Dog Whisperer, Friday nights on National Geographic Channel. Here in Arizona, B&L Dog Training is constructing a dog center so we can help our clients even with the most difficult problems. We'll announce its opening in the next few months but meanwhile, we are available to come to your home and we offer a free 15 minute evaluation. You then decide if you want to work with us to help your dog and family.

Makes perfect sence go read Try reading excel-erated learning explaining how dogs learn and how best to teach them by Pamela Ried PHD

It will make it alll very pointedly clear and just why the way some train is just the wrong end of the stick.

It takes a lot longer to properly assess a dog thatn 15 mintues. And many aggressive dogs only act up at home.
JL

Hi, I created a thread for discussion on Cesar's methods so aquinn can have her thread back :) :

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/tra...te-thread.html

I am commented on the fact that 15 minutes is not at all long enough to assess a dog and that does not have a thing to do with Ceaser that just has to Do with this trainer.

Takes a much longer time to get to the root of many dogs concerns. Not always are they going to lay it all out on the table and hand it to you easy.
Fact that this trainer thinks it can is concerning. When I know for a fact that any accessment done by a PHD or a DVM in behaviour takes as much as an hour or more.


JL

I respect your opinions, but the fact is, some people like Cesar's training, and it's only fair to give them some space in this forum. A lot of people have said why they disagree with Cesar, and there's now a thread where it can be discussed in more detail. It's not like people are unaware that Cesar is controversial. If someone has been living under a rock and didn't know it, in reading this thread they will surely learn it.

I'm not telling you to keep your opinions to yourself, I'm just suggesting that we move them to a different location.

Again the last post has to do directly with the trainer posting in this thread and not a thing to do with Ceaser.
You would be amazed at the number of people I run into on a weekly if not daily baces that have not a clue as to why Ceaser is not the best way to go train a dog ecpecially for those with not training in animals at all.

Goes right along with the chat I had the other day about pet store puppies and puppy mills the lady had no clue.

As long as this trainer posts to a thread any thread and she/he is free of course to do so than I will repond as needed to point out why I think or do not think there is an concern with the manner this trainer is training.

JL

I think your concerns have been expressed at this point, and the people who are going to hear you have heard you. If this trainer helped aquinn's dog, then I think she deserves to be able to come on here and offer to help other dogs. I do not agree with her methods, but at this point, we are beating a dead horse (something I know you would not approve of! ;) )

I totally agree with beating a dead horse as being not ok but if the trainer comes and posts again and i have a conern with what he/she says i will voice that concern. What someone sees now as a fix when training is done in this manner ,tends to fall apart and get worse over time. Right now things look grand but it is a wait and see.

JL