Crating Issue
 

Hey, guys! It's been a while since I've been on here...but I'm back and looking for a little advice. I've moved to another apartment and potty training is going well except...

...Chewie is crated all day while I'm at work...nothing I can do about it. So from about 7am-5pm he's in there. This may be where I'm going wrong. I put a water bottle on the crate (the kind meant for rabbits or ferrets) so he can sip during the day because 10hrs is a long time to go without water. He is constantly peeing in his crate. I have to bathe him every other day because he gets pee all over himself and smells like a dumpster.

Before I leave for the day and when I get home, we go outside and he'll potty...usually #1 and #2. Sometimes he'll leave the #2 for when I get home. He never poops in his crate (knock on wood).

My friend that has potty trained all of her weenie dogs this way recommends that I put him in this teeny tiny crate. Like a travel crate with absolutely no room to move so he doesn't have a way to get away from the pee. Supposedly he'll eventually stop peeing in the crate. Is this cruel or a good idea? Should I remove the water bottle so he has no way to build up a pee reserve? I have no idea how to proceed

Also, I'm sure this is just part of the long potty training process, but even when we go outside to potty, Chewie must save a little bit back so he can pee on a wall or poop in the corner (both things have happened twice) He literally lives in this regular wire crate except for rare times when I feel like he can be trusted for a few minutes without copping a squat or hiking his leg to pee on the wall ...everytime I've brought him in after an outside potty, he's doing something within minutes of me turning away for 2 seconds :confused:

Sorry for the novel, but I have to make up for the month I haven't been on here, LOL!!!

Wow, 10 hours is a long time to be in a crate. I don't think it's very nice to keep them in the crate for that long. Is it possible to give your baby a bigger space? (perhaps the bathroom or kitchen or you can purchase a pen)

I would recommend you pad train or litter box train your baby, since you are away that long each day. I pad trained my baby milu even though i stay home with her, because i don't want her to have to hold it at all, i want her to go to the bathroom whenever she wants to just as people do. Now she goes to the bathroom whenever she needs to. (she will go on the pad and poo about 2-4 times a day, and pee about 8 times a day)

I think that would be best for your baby as long as you make sure the area is safe for him to play and sleep for 10 hours while you are away.

Another possibility is to have someone come take your dog out for potty breaks during the day.

If you need advice with the pad training, let me know. :)

Great advice. 10 hours is a long time. I use crates for one of my dogs during the day, but not for 10 hours, and you can't housetrain a dog by being away for that long. For crate training to work you need to be able to put the pup on a reasonable schedule of play, eat, eliminate, crate, eliminate, play, eat...etc... and for that you need to be around 24/7.

If you get an expen or use a gate in the kitchen, etc, and work on pad training then your little one will have someplace to go during the day. It'll still be a difficult road to training with that much time alone, but I think you can get there. If you decide to pad train, take the above poster up on her offer to give you more advice. Seems like it'd be a great way to go in your situation!!!

Good luck.

:( awwww poor little guy

you said "He literally lives in this regular wire crate except for rare times when I feel like he can be trusted for a few minutes without copping a squat or hiking his leg to pee on the wall ?"

I don't want to sound mean... but what kind of life is that ? Don't you let him out to play ? A puppy needs exercise - all dogs do

There are a lot of misconceptions about crate training. I am by no means an expert, AT ALL, but I do know a bit about it (as I'm attempting to crate train my puppy). A dog can hold it's bladder for about how many months old it is. So your Chewie could potentially hold his bladder for 7 hours in an absolute emergency. Of course this is a general rule of thumb, there's a lot of variation.

When you crate train a dog there are a few basic concepts. First, you put the dog in a crate that is big enough ONLY for the dog to be able to make a small circle. The theory is that if the crate is the right size and small enough the dog won't eliminate where it rests. Even for people that crate train and do it exactly as you should (all the time) may experience times that their dog simply could not hold it and they will eliminate in their crate. Continuously eliminating in the crate will negate the positive reinforcement and learning the dog has learned from the crate training. (Think of puppy mill or pet shop puppies, they make in their spaces without thought so much that they are VERY difficult to house train/crate train because of this. If a behavior is reinforced, even if you do this wouldn't trying to, it will continue!)

Second, you ONLY leave the dog in their crate for lengths of time that are appropriate for them to hold their bladder. As I said, times can vary between dogs. But for instance, if you leave a 3 month old puppy in their crate for 4 or 5 hours you've just set your dog up for failure. While Chewie is older, he clearly hasn't figured it all out yet, so long lengths of time in the crate may just not be appropriate for him yet. Generally you make it a slow progression, an hour then two then three, etc.

While I understand that there are situations you can't control, sometimes we have to compromise or make the best out of what we're given to work with. For example, my 4 month old has to stay at home alone when I go to school. While my boyfriend usually leaves a few hours after me, giving her a few hours reprieve, she will have to be confined once she's home alone. For any length of time ABOVE 2-3 hours I put her in her X-pen. The point of the X-pen is to give her room, to play, to stretch, to eat, and to eliminate if necessary. Some people put puppy pads in their X-pens, knowing that their dog will eliminate and with the goal to have the dog eliminate in the appropriate spot. You don't have to buy and X-pen, you can find a safe space for Chewie to stay (usually Laundry rooms, bathrooms, or kitchens work best). But even a dog that's FULLY house trained probably couldn't last 10 hours without leaving you some kind of present. There are days I've had no choice, she's been home alone for something around 5 hours, and I know that leaving her that long it's not expected for to have NOT had an accident, but I just clean it up and continue to reinforce when she makes outside.

Also, on leaving water in the crate, for Chewie being alone for 10 hours it would be cruel to not leave him water. In fact you may want to leave him a little bit of food too. All the same, if he took even one sip and filled his bladder, how is he supposed to hold it in? Think of you really having to go, and how hard it is to wait and hold it for long periods. You have that control and you've practiced a lot. Imagine little Chewie, his bladder's smaller and he's had WAY less practice!

There's a LOT of information out there, be it here on YT or books or whatnot. My best suggestion would be to figure out what you may be able to do to work around Chewies needs. If you can't come home then you can't, don't beat yourself up any more. But you could think about other options then. Finding a dog walker to come during the day when you can't. Think about putting Chewie in a larger space. Think about training him to go on puppy pads while you're gone. There's a bunch of different ideas, those are just a few.

I hope that was of some help! Best of luck!!!! :D :thumbup:

Ok, geez people give me a freakin break! I don't imprison my dog! When I'm home we go outside and he runs around and plays outside. We go out MULTIPLE times when I'm home. As far as living in his crate..he lives in there when he's in the house until he is potty trained better. I live in an apartment complex that has plenty of green area to run.

But I'm sorry...I'm single now and I work Monday thru Friday 7:30am - 4:40pm. I moved 25 miles closer to work just because I'm the only one home now and my previous commute was taking over an hour to get home which would be an extra hour he would have to be crated if I stayed in that city. So I'm thinking of my dog here and I'm doing everything I can to accomodate him within my means. As far as pad training...that's a forgone issue. He shreds them to pieces just by smelling them. I bought a $25 plastic tray to secure them that didnt stop him from tearing them up. I bought washable pads but he doesnt know the difference between those and my bed pillows or any other soft thing. So....

Chewie has a very long history of being an excellent escape artist even from his wire crate and 2 baby gates( see below) I stacked to keep him penned in the kitchen/hallway at my last apartment which he climbed over in seconds. If he's left unattended in the house, he will chew up everything he can get in his mouth, pee and poop on everything he can, tear up the carpet (i have pictures of that too!) chew on cabinets, anything! He's crated for a damn good reasons, people. I USED to let him run free when I was at work, but I came home to a smelly disaster everyday! He ran free from the day we got him at 3mo up until about a month ago when I got ready to move. He's almost 9mo old now. So he had free reign for almost 6-7months. It was other people here at YT that told me he needed to be crated during the day when I'm gone until he gets older and can learn where it's OK to do his business. I'll even go find the past posts to prove it. So before you start passing judgement on ME, check yourself! I'm here for advice, but if this is the environment that YT has turned into in a MONTH...I'll go elsewhere for advice...:mad:

Just to add...he has food in his crate...his has his bully sticks and a couple of other toys to keep him busy.

We play outiside in the morning before work and we walk around my building 3-4 times when I get home from work. When he plops down and starts playing in the grass...he's ready to go inside. He gets plenty of exercise...

He jumps gates... or climbs them... I have no room for an Xpen in my small apartment. I would've bought one by now if I did.

Kim,

I am sorry if you feel that you were attacked or otherwise felt you were not being treated with respect. It's hard sometimes to give advise, when you don't know the whole story. I'm sorry if I said things that you didn't agree with and felt were mean, I didn't intend them to be! I was just going off what I saw in your original post.

From what you've said it sounds like you've tried a lot! Since it seems like you've gone through all of my suggestions I'm out of ideas, sorry! Honestly, for all we try to give our opinions and our advise, he's your dog and you know what's best for him! Take things with a grain of salt and decide for yourself what you think is best! I guess it's just going to take some persistence on your part, and some good cleaner! :D Eventually he'll get it! (And I know all about shredding the puppy pads, little Zoe just doesn't get it, I gave up on those while she's in her X-pen a LONG time ago...)

Sorry for all of the harsh comments, know that I had no intentions of coming off as rude or cruel! Again, best of luck with your little difficult monster! ;)

I don't think most people were being mean. I know my comments were meant to be helpful. You did come here asking for advice, and I had no way of knowing you didn't have room for an ex pen.

I'm sure you're a good mom, I just know from experience, that 10 hours is a long time to hold it. Good luck with whatever you decide.

Hi Kimmie. I think you were given excellent advice by mblab in the post way above.

One thing I want to mention right off is a caution in leaving bully sticks alone with your baby, that's a choking hazard; they sure are a nice chew (I use them too) - but I'd only give them when you're present :).

When a dog is left for 10 hours, you really need to allow it to drink and have access to go to the bathroom. Sometimes, all this stuff gets very confusing. When it does, I put myself in their shoes ("paws", lol! :)) and think "could I hold my bladder for 10 hours? Not drink? Not eat?" - no. Personally, I just don't think it's appropriate to expect it of them (that's my opinion).

I work 3 days a week, my hubby full time. We have a very large master bathroom connected to our master bedroom, and it has large window - so the bathroom is where we keep our babies when we're gone. We have water for them, washable pee pads, safe toys, beds, a large pillow. We put a bottle in the middle of the pee pad so they have something to "mark". We used to have to "anchor" the pad when Marcel went through a stage of playing w/ the pad for awhile (then he got over it). Sometimes, they go off the pad - and since we're not home - we consider that our problem, not theirs. They really do pretty good.

It's not easy, but you'll find something that works. I do not think the answer, for 10 hours, is to confine your baby to an even smaller area. I think you need to provide toys, a washable pee pad (perhaps anchored by cement blocks), water. And, a lot of walks/exercise. Confinement is very stressful for these fellas - he will likely develop a stress disorder, imo (if you go smaller). Also, what about a DAP collar or DAP Hormone plug in? That may help calm him too. Hang in there, Kimmie, you'll get him there. :) :) :)

In my previous posts I already mentioned that he DOES have water and food. He has a water bottle attached to his crate that's usually meant for big rabbits, ferrets or guinea pigs that he drinks from with no problem. And he has a little food container attached to the side as well.

I unfortunately dont have a large anything in this new apartment. The bathroom is small and the kitchen is small....all rooms are small. It will be MY problem if he potties in the apartment continously because I'm just renting. If I owned a home it would be different. I can't afford to lose my deposit on this apartment too because of his damages. You saw what he did to the carpet in those pictures I posted.

He makes his own access to the bathroom himself by pottying in his crate on the crate pad which was the main reason for this post before it went in 500 different directions. Thankfully he doesnt poop in there, he just pees. I can't blame him because that's a long time to be in there. But there's absolutely nothing I can do about that length of time right now...........

I realize all that - I was just trying to reinforce that you continue with this instead of going in the direction of putting him in a travel size crate for 10 hours without water, which was also suggested.

And, even though he may go on his crate pad - I still think it's important to provide a washable pee-pad instead (and get rid of the crate pad that smells of pee, which will continue to make him mark). Provide a marking post in the middle of the pee pad. Redo his bed completely.

You have to put yourself in Chewys place and think about what kind of life does he have? In a small crate for 10 hrs a day, Plus how many hours at night is he in this crate? asumming its 8 hrs so you can sleep does this mean he is crated for 18 hrs out of a 24 hr day. IMO this isnt much of a life. What if you were put in a tiny space for this many hours, day in and day out with no bathroom and human contact, I have a feeling you would act out when you got out for a few hours also. I am not trying to be mean or sound mean. I am just stating facts, This isnt the kind of life a puppy deserves. Maybe you should try to think of something to get him out of the crate more often( a kid to come over and play with him after school) and if ithats impossible, Maybe rehoming. As I said I am not trying to be mean just trying to get you to see thats its really bordering on being cruel to keep a dog crated for this many hrs hours out of a 24 hr day. Doesnt Chewy deserve better?

Btw, if it makes you feel any better - it took me 2 years+ to train my Wylie - it really did. So, you're not alone, Kimmie. I just want to make sure you know that. :)

Mainly, Thanks to everyone for their opinions...


To put this as nice as I can....I'm just plain tired of talking about this now. The time he spends in his crate is out of my control...I work...I'm not lucky enough to be a stay at home mom like the majority of you guys on here. I have no husband anymore to share the duties of dog ownership with. There's no one to "come over" and play with him. I just moved to a city where no one I know lives close and I don't trust random people to come into my apartment when I'm not there. There's a doggy daycare in my area so I'll probably check into taking him there so he can interact with people/animals when I'm gone once my finances improve. That's the best I can do for him within the means I'm working with at this time. When he's in the house...he is crated "most" of the time. When he successfully potties outside, he comes in the house and we play for 15-20min, but then he goes back in. After another 45min to an hour, we go out to potty again...if he has a good potty, we repeat the previous... As long as he potties, he gets to play on the carpeted area with me within my sight.

Again, even with all of that said...my main post was about leaving him water in the crate when I'm gone or not...which obviously will have a result of him peeing in the crate. His bedding is changed out daily and he is bathed on more than a regular basis. All I wanted to know was should I leave the water or not in order to get him in the habit of not peeing in the crate....that's all...

If those are the options, then, I guess the best option is to leave the water, put up with the peeing in the crate.

(BTW, many of us here do work fulltime, including me, many are also on their own, we were trying to help. Gosh, I see more than one single fulltime worker in this thread alone).

Yeah, I would leave the water with him - and put up with the mistakes.

Another thing you can do when you're home is tether him to you, instead of re-crating him. That way, he learns how to be in/around the house without peeing. That may be a learning opportunity - and he can also be with his Mama. :D

Tethering....not a bad idea... :thumbup:

I understand. My puppy Buster isn't crated, with my commute I am gone 12 hours a day. I tried gating him in my kitchen with pee pads, toys, food, water. He broke out. Now he runs the living room and kitchen while I'm gone.

He is 4 months old now and is just now getting better at holding his poo's at before I leave and then when I get home. Peeing is a whole other ballgame, so the pads come in handy. Most of the time he goes on the pads but accidents do happen.

I guess what I am trying to say is I understand crating, especially if your pup is destructive. I would leave him access to food and water. He may pee now but I think in time as his bladder control gets better that would stop.

No not a good idea the dog can get tangled and strangle. He can become Territorial aggressive.
Dog walker is something you can look into or doggy day care as well if not every day once or twice a week.

The other option is get a room mate and have them help.

I have a jumper as well and we use a very big kennel... I chose to give up space I needed to give it space.

The last option which is always painful to look at is life changes and sometimes we have to let go of the things we love for them to have a good life as much as we like to keep them. I am not saying this is needed here but with all that is changing in life for many in the way of economic and working hours some of us will have to make tough choice... been done here... I moved home.

JL

I could be wrong, but I believe they are discussing tethering the pup to mom. :)

You could be right ... I was thinking to something as he is a jumper.
See now that be called a life line for dog trainers not a tether.

JL

That's correct :). It's when she is home and around the house - so that Chewy can be tethered to Mama and be with her, but not be able to potty. He can be around the house, learn how to be around the house, but not potty bc he is tethered to Kim.

That be me I was reading and doing something else and also the differnts in use of terms.
Tether to me is to a non moving odject. Life line is to you so you can see what teh dog is doing... that works well for house training.

JL

:thumbup: Yay!!! Kim, I think this sounds really promising :)!!! I believe YorkieMother is a trainer, so this may be a great option for you and Chewy. :thumbup:

I am a dog trainer and having metal farts today a ton. LOL

Life lines are great for many things.
For teaching you to be aware of the dog and also for the dog to start to take notice of you. Most house training concerns are that both person and dog are not on the same page at all. Life lines help stop that. ( most I switched to life line.. tether gets my brain in a mess) LOL

JL

If I tether him to me...I seriously doubt he'll have enough time to strangle. I'm not talking about tethering him to a door knob or anything.

I've given up many many things for him. He eats the best food, drinks only filtered water, always has clean bedding (when I get home to change it), a zillion toys and treats... this dog is certainly not doing without. Not forgetting to mention all of MY things he has ruined...mainly computer cables, a lamp cord, surround sound cables, antique wood furniture from my grandma....i can go on and on. I'm almost 30 years old and moving back home with parents just because my dog is difficult is totally not in the cards for me. They would laugh at me and tell me to get over it and go home. Chewie's crate is pretty big for his size. I think it's the 42' crate...there's room for 3 of him in there...so he isn't suffocating. He's definitely not suffering. He goes in by himself willingly and hangs out in there...chews on his toys and takes naps. As long as he can see me, he's fine being in there.

I think in the posts I made just before this we cleared that up about the life line to you not a tree stump or a door handle... there is the differnce between using the correct terms and not.
As for the rest justify it any way you can but 10 hours is to long every day weeks on end without break.

JL