Review of Cindy Johnson - Valley View Puppies
 

I know there are those of you who firmly attest that teacup yorkies don’t really “exist” or that they are simply runts or anomalies and any breeder that advertises teacup yorkies is doing the breed a disservice and cannot possibly be reputable. This post isn’t really about that, and I don’t want this to turn into a debate. I am one of those people that believes there are actually reputable breeders of teacup sized yorkies who have a proven history of producing these tiny pups that are perfectly normal, healthy, delightful dogs, and in February 2006 I began searching for just such a breeder. I had done lots of research (though apparently not enough) and after an exhaustive search, I stumbled upon the Valley View Puppies website, owned by Cindy Johnson. Right away, I was impressed with the information provided on the website, general information about yorkies, information about herself, pictures of the sire and dams, testimonials, etc. I made it very clear to her size was MOST important to me, and I really wanted a teacup sized yorkie. I reiterated this point over and over. She assured me the little male I had chosen would definitely be less than 3.5 lbs, and would probably barely reach 3. I told her I would not hold her to an exact size of course, but I did want to feel assured he would stay within what is normally regarded as the teacup range. The little male I purchased was still too young to travel, so Cindy promised she would keep me updated with pictures. I didn’t receive any pictures or emails for a while. I began to get the feeling I had been scammed, and I even ran an identity check on her, to make sure there really was a Cindy Johnson living at the address she had given me. When she finally did touch base, I questioned her. She gave me a huge guilt trip, explaining that she was digging herself out of blizzard conditions in Nebraska at the time. I felt terrible – like a paranoid, crazy lady - here this poor woman was suffering through a blizzard, and I was doing background checks on her! The funny things was, I noticed the blizzard didn’t keep her from updating her web page with new pictures of her other puppies that same week.

As the weeks progressed, I began to think my puppy looked a little large. But Cindy assured me, he was a “tiny teacup”, and that her teacups tend to grow very quickly at first, then just completely stop growing. Still, I wasn’t convinced, so I asked if she could photograph my puppy next to a slightly older puppy that came from a different litter. The sire and dam of this other puppy had a proven history of producing tinies. (BTW, I was originally interested in this other puppy, but Cindy said the little male I chose had a much better pedigree, his mother was smaller than the other’s, and his bone structure was much more petite.) I also asked if she could provide me with both their weights, so I could compare that as well. She said she couldn’t get the two puppies to stay still long enough to snap the shot, and she never did provide the weights either. In hindsight, I now wonder why her husband or some other person couldn’t have held the two puppies next to each other while she took the picture. But the thing was, I was still kind of embarrassed over the whole “blizzard-background-check-episode-thing”, and I just didn’t want to come across as a difficult or hard-to-please customer. Plus, Cindy comes across as so sugary sweet and so genuinely interested in being helpful. I really felt guilty questioning her at that point. I did, however, ask her to provide the puppy’s weight a week before he was due to fly home. She said he weighed 1 lb. 5 oz. Funny thing is, when Huck arrived, a week later, I weighed him on my digital scale, and he weighed in at a whopping 1 lb. 12 oz. Teacup yorkies don’t gain 7 ounces in 7 days! At that point I realized, either Cindy wasn’t being completely upfront or her scale was way off! I expressed my concern over his size. She said he was just fat, because he had received lots of table scraps (That’s a whole other issue! To this day, we still struggle with Huck’s annoying tendency to beg and rummage through the kitchen garbage!). She said his weight gain would slow down and taper off, especially once he no longer received table food. Anyway, to make a long story not too much longer, as you might have guessed, Huck continued to rapidly grow, and grow, and grow, and grow.

He is about 9 months old and just recently passed the 5 lb mark. We travel A LOT. When Huck was still in the 3 lb range we moved from Texas to Maryland. Traveling with him was so easy. We just put him in my small purse style carrier, and I could take him everywhere, in and out of hotels, restaurants, shopping, etc., so we didn’t have to worry about scheduling kennel stays, about him being left behind at the hotel barking, or about whether we’ll be able to leave him in the car while we stop to eat somewhere. Now that Huck is larger, traveling is becoming more and more difficult. Also, I decided to litter box train him. Having a dog that is 3.5 lbs or less doing it’s “business” indoors isn’t a huge deal (if you know what I mean), but that too is becoming a little less practical now that he’s larger. (BTW, he receives ½ cup of NutroMax every two days, and usually doesn’t even finish that. And we DO NOT feed him table scraps! So, he’s definitely not over fed.)

By the time I paid for shipping ($350), I had shelled out $2200 for Huck. Cindy said she based his price first on pedigree, then on size, then on coat, then on ears. Unfortunately, I was misled on every one of those traits. She told me he had an “impressive” pedigree on both the mother's and the father’s side, which she said was the main reason he was priced higher than the others she had listed. However, when I received his 3-generation pedigree, there was only one champion, and it was on his mother’s side. She told me he would be a “tiny teacup” (her exact words). Well, he’s not even a teacup, much less a tiny teacup. He’s barely even what most would consider a tiny toy. As for coat…she told me Huck would have a "very nice coat". Huck has what’s called a wiry coat. A wiry coat tends to appear dry and frizzy and usually never achieves any significant length. As for Huck’s ears – they’re big and tall. I have to keep them trimmed very short and I let the hair on the bottom half of his ears grow, so it hides their size.

Don’t get me wrong, I love Huck. The minute he curled up in my arms, he was mine forever, and, despite any “flaws” he may have, I would never give him up. I do, however, think I paid way, way too much for him. If a breeder charges that much for a dog, then that breeder should be willing to stand behind his or her claims about his or her dogs, even when the dog falls short. And, certainly, if a puppy is advertised over and over as a tiny teacup, the buyer should receive at least a teacup-sized dog. I’ve asked Cindy to provide me with a partial refund - just charge me what you would normally charge for a dog with his pedigree, size, coat and ears, and refund me the difference - a pretty reasonable request IMO. (BTW - yes, I did sign the contract stating, basically, nothing outside of health is guaranteed. I know. I know. But I signed it naively thinking that was to protect Cindy from those type of people that get upset over a few ounces or a coat that is less than perfect or something like that.) She refused, claiming she’d already “bent over backwards for me”, and said she was sorry Huck didn’t turn out to be “exactly” the size I had hoped for. It’s not that he isn’t “exactly” the size I had hoped for. Rather, it’s that he isn’t even near the size I paid for, or the quality.

My main purpose for posting here is partly because I'm just mad and have no other recourse and, of course, partly because I’d just really like to hear y’all’s thoughts…

I don't blame you for being upset for getting a larger dog then you paid for, considering you paid $2,200 plus $350 shipping (you could of paid alot less and gotten a smaller dog), but now that you have him and love him his size probally doesn't matter:)

Because you signed a contract stating all that mumble jumble your pretty much screwed in the legal way... But on her own good faith she should partially refund your money showing she stands behind her dogs... But, hey I guess she doesn't if she told you, "no" already...I would keep trying, keep e-mailing her...Bug the s*&t out of her :p................

Well...
 

I think she owes you the partial refund. Unfortunately, you will most likely never see it.:( It is great that you love Huck. And you must know that what goes around, comes around and she will eventually get hers.;)
Teri:animal-pa

I too think the kennel owner should rebate part of the price but I doubt it will ever happen. I have learned the hard way that these verbal contracts just hold no weight along side a written contract that says different. My experience was with a home improvement and not a pet but it involved a LOT more money and I was still basically screwed due to a "limited guarantee." Unscupulous people can talk all they want but if they don't put it on paper, you are not protected.
There is no way anyone can predict the size a puppy will grow to be. Back in their linage there was bound to be some larger size and who knows when it will show? If you really want a "teacup" size, the only way to guarantee that is to buy a fully grown adult dog.
Sorry your baby was not as advertised but glad to hear you bonded and love the little one just the same. Good lesson to share with others about contracts, word of mouth, checking pedigrees, and steering away from some breeders.

I fell in love with CAliwhen I went to first see her. At the time the breeder said she was the only one left and she keeps the best for last in case they end up keeping the pup. I wasn't concerned about weight i just wanted one that would not go over standard. She told me that Cali would only be 3 lbs and she was charging more than her 2 sisters. When I went back to get her 3 weeks later she had caught up to her sisters weight. She is now about 5 lbs and still very tiny and portable. She is wee wee pad trained and it's not a problem. I too feel that breeders should not give a specific weight as no one can guarantee size and refunds should be made if they charge more becasue of it. I bought Cali before I found YT and I am so much smarter about getting a dog, I hope!! Sometimes you just fall in love. To me CAli is perfect!!

If this breeder was a knowledge breeder of the yorkie breed she would have known that the word "teacup" is NOT in the yorkie standard. NOBODY can tell you exactly how much your puppy is going to weigh as an adult...I'm not sure if any of you have watched the show on discovery health about dwarf ( can I say this word?!) couple that had 2 children that were dwarf size and 2 normal sized children....now they came from the same size parents...NOTHING is ever gaurenteed! Alot of people who breed yorkies use the term teacup as a selling feature, jacking the prices WAY up! If it had been me...the minute she told me she sold teacups I would have started looking somewhere else...JMO

I agree!!! That is a terrible price for any yorkie.

Charging extra for a pedigree for a "teacup" is ridiculous since you shouldn't be breeding them anyway.

Charging more for a "teacup" is ridiculous because they generally have more health issues.

As for the pee pad training, I have a 5 1/2 pound and he is pee pad trained, it's not much different than at 3 1/2 pound one. Still very doable.

I don't try to sneak mine into stores or restaurnats, but I would guess I could easily do it if I wanted to.

I'm sorry that you were over charged and appreciate the "heads Up" on this breeder, but personally I think having him be larger than expected will be a blessing in the long run.

I'm glad you love every ounce of him.

Weight......not all the issue
 

Apart from the weight thing......I believe if she breeds "tinies" she probably could predict, better than anyone the Yorkie's weight, within in a close range anyway........so that is one thing....but the other thing is the coat issue.....if I am not mistaken she should know whether the coat was going to be silky or "not silky" very early with this pup. That one bothers me......and the ear thing......and experienced breeder can tell about those too.........

So, all that being said.......I believe you were misled a bit and she should return some of your money.......she probably won't.....which is another "red flag"

$2200 is quite a lot for a "pet" puppy anyway.......

I will definately take note in my purchase of a Yorkie....

I am sorry for your disappointment.

like a wise person once told me nobody can guarentee the size of a pup or dog until it's finished growing. there's no such thing as a teacup yes you overpaied. file a complaint with the bbb and wherever else you possibly can maybe the akc?

would this be them?

http://www.valleyviewpuppies.com/

Yup - that's her! And, as you can see, she's still advertising those "tiny teacups" with "excellent pedigrees". I really do hope this helps at least one person. Hinesight, as always, is 20/20. If I were to ever purchase another teacup yorkie, I would definitely only buy the puppy after it had reached at least 6 months of age. If you are deadset on a younger puppy, use the toy breed puppy growth chart. Unfortunately I discovered this tool too late. Again, it's not a guarantee of size, but it does seem to provide a pretty good estimation. When I went back and compared Huck's early weights and ages to the chart, it was nearly right on the money. I also decided to see if it would have accurately estimated my other yorkie's (Finn :rip:) weight correctly, and, again, it was correct. The only thing is, it is based on an ACCURATE age and weight. Be sure the breeder uses a digital scale or a very well calibrated manual scale, because a reading that is even a few ounces off will estimate a different size range.

As I mentioned before, I still do believe there are reputable breeders of teacup yorkies. Again, after I purchased Huck I learned I probably should have made sure the sire and dam came from a long, long line of healthy teacups and that both parents together had a proven history of producing teacups. Just because the parents are small, or just because one of them has produced teacups isn't enough.

I think these measures will certainly increase the probability of coming home with a true teacup, but the person who posted above is right - there is no guarantee. There are always anomalies, exceptions, in any breeding program, with respect to size, coat, color, health, etc. That's why I would definitely suggest you get it in writing. No breeder is going to guarantee size, but if he/she truly believes his/her breeding programs produces teacups and are charging more for them, then they should have no problem guaranteeing a size range, guaranteeing the puppy will not get any bigger than say 4 lbs.

I really appreciate your thoughts and words of wisdom. I will probably try to contact Cindy again, and, who knows, maybe she will prove us all wrong and decide on a fair resolution to this problem. I will definitely let you know!

Anna

No breeder can quarantee weight and if they tell you they can they are full of it. I too bought what I thought was going to be a small yorkie and paid extra for her. She was 12 oz when I brought her home at 8 weeks. She grew to 6 lbs. The only contract I had was verbal so there was nothing i could do about it. I really dont think my breeder could have forseen My 12 ooz girl growing to 6 lbs anyway. Any time you pay more for a tiny you are taking a risk that it will grow bigger than 3 lbs. People who buy tinies usually are aware of that and take that risk. I dont think the breeder owes you any money back. You took a risk

I think you should be refunded some of your money.. although we all know that she will not do that!!!

another side note... .Why is this lady breeding 3lb females?!?!?! poor dogs

That's a pretty sweeping generalization, and not at all accurate, at least not in my case. This was a BIG purchase for me, and I made sure she knew that. I would have NEVER spent that kind of money on something I KNEW to be a risk. I truly believed Cindy was a knowledgable, forthright breeder and she comes across as SOOOO sweet and genuienly interested in her customers. Because she so firmly assured me of Huck's weight I purchased him from her, and I felt confident that if he were to fall short of any of her claims, she would be willing to make things right. I was honestly surprised when she refused, and that's why I'm so upset.

It's precisely because I made it so clear that size was of the upmost importance and because she assured me over and over that he would remain small that I feel she owes me some reparation. Initially, I even asked her outright, have any of your tiny teacups ever been significantly larger than expected, and she said no. If I had failed to make my wants clear or she had even once stated he might be much larger than predicted, I wouldn't feel justified in asking for anything, but that's just not the case here.

I know! I didn't know what a huge "no-no" that was until after the purchase, but once I found out I went back and took a closer look at the moms and dads. I know pictures can be deceiving, but I'm beginning to wonder if some of those dogs really are as small as she claims. Huck's mother Ali looks pretty small, but some of the other ones I'm not so sure about.

Rather they should refund it or not, the breeder that would deliberately mislead you is not going to be the breeder that refunds your money.

I, too, paid more for a pup because according to the breeder, it probably wouldn't be over 2 #. Was I naive?? Yes. In hindsight, I probably didn't even want her to be less than 2# but I do feel like the breeders should tell the truth.

I am curious as to the adult size of the other pups in the litter. Not because, I expect her to refund money nor would I ever let my baby go, I'm just a curious kind of person. Does the runt of the litter always grow up to be smaller than its littermates??

Do "teacup" Yorkies have the rep of being unhealthy because they are frequently not necessarily from a small line but just the runts of the litters? I have been very fortunate, if possibly overcharged, in that my baby is 3# AND healthy.

I also don't believe that small Yorkies have to be unhealthy Yorkies. I don't feel that it is wrong to have a very small Yorkie if your lifestyle is suitable. A retired couple that travels prefers a smaller Yorkie while a young couple with small children probably should have a larger, sturdier Yorkie. Maybe one size does not fit all in this case.

Another question I have is if it is common practice for someone with a 3# 12 or so oz. dog to call it a 3#er? I seem to have seen this in some cases and wonder if this is just individual people wanting to make their dog seem smaller or if this is truly something done in the "Yorkie" world. In that case maybe the breeder was right and my 2.9# Yorkie really is a 2#er. :)

Anyway, as someone said, none of it really matters. Once they are yours, they are yours forever, regardless of size.

All the terms are sort of amusing, teacups or teapots, none of them are accurate.

Same thing happened to me
 

I bought Gucci from Puppyland here in Stafford Virginia. I did no reasearch other than searching washington post. I saw him fell in love and purchased. I non chalauntly asked how big he would get i thougt all yorkies were one size. She said he will be 4-5 pounds. Well found out at first puppy visit they werent reputable breeder from the vet who knew of them well. Also at first visit at 12 weeks he weighed 4 pounds. He now weighs a whopping 8 pounds. I didnt think he was different until i began taking him out. People kept saying WOW thats a big yorkie. It began to make me feel some kind of way. I now have 3 yorkies. I did more research and now have 2 tiny yorkies from reputable breeders. I think lesson learn is do your homework, dont rush to buy a yorkie. I ran into other yorkie owners who i met that seem to have very excellent quality yorkies and I asked them who was there breeder and did research on them, this time i had to choose between 6 different breeders and and I made best decision. Online purchased scared me i was more willing to do long drive than purchase online. :animal-pa

I dont care what the breeder said because their is no breeder that can quarantee size and when you pay extra for a tiny you are taking a risk. It works out for alot of people and some people it doesnt but you are taking a risk

I don't really have a problem with breeders charging more for teacups. My understanding is it's pretty expensive to breed them (the mothers often require c-sections, etc.). Plus it's simple economics. They are rare and in high demand, so people are willing to pay more for them, just like the chocolate yorkies. However, if a breeder sells teacups and charges consideraly more, then they should be willing to take some sort of responsibility if the dog turns out to be standard sized. If they are not willing to do this, they should not label the dog a teacup, much less a tiny teacup, as Cindy did. Describe it instead as a "tiny toy, possibly smaller". As buyers we are not experts. We try to educate ourselves as much as possible and do our reserach, but we're just not the experts. To a certain degree, we have to rely on the breeders expertise and honestly, and breeders like Cindy need to realize that and take some responsibility.

You do realize that even if 2 3 lb parents are breed if the grandparents are larger then the pups born can be larger like the grandparents

Yes, it is expensive to breed them but unfortunely its the tiny moms who pay the price. Any breeders that claims to or breeds tinies is unethical, period! :mad:

I think you deserve a partial refund. If the breeder took actually the risk to tell you "THis dog will definitely be under this weight" Then morally she should compensate you. But time and time again you see that after money exchanged hands so does the attitude of the breeder.:(
If a breeder decides to practice this way it will bit them later in the ***
Rightfully in my eyes, she should feel an obligation. Its unfortunate she doesnt.
I know I would feel it if I had stated those things and make a good will offering to you.
If she would have done that I doubt very much you would not feel the anger toward her, and probably wouldnt be on a public forum because you feel lied too.
Its great to hear you love your lil Huck! and dont want to discard him because he isnt EXACTLY what you wanted.:)

You're right :thumbup: , I wouldn't be at all upset with Cindy if she would've done that. Even responsible business owners make mistakes. I know that. But it's only the irresponsible ones that refuse to take any responsibility for the justified dissatisfaction and financial loss the customer endures. We wouldn't be having this conversation if I felt Cindy had done that. Instead, I would probably commend her for being one of the upstanding breeders who is willing to do that.

And let me make it clear, actually, we wouldn't even be having this converstaion if Huck had remained under the 4.5 lb range. I could understand an estimation that is a pound or so off. But she described him as a "tiny teacup" that would most likely not even reach 3.5 lbs. He's 5 lbs and still gaining! That's significant.

If breeders could guarentee the size a yorkie would be as an adult they would put it in writing...I don't think you will find a breeder that will do that..



"teacups", as you choose to call them and Chocolate yorkies...are not rare...the word teacup isn't even in the breed standard. and chocolate yorkies...although they are adorable and I wouldn't mind having one, is a genetic fault..(help me if I'm wrong YTer's) if a breeder is trying to sell you a chocolate yorkie as rare...they are miss leading you. the yorkie standard for weight is 5-7lbs...anything under that would be considered a "tiny".

Alot of members get upset when they see the word "teacup" this is only because the term is being used to make more money on these tiny ones..Research is the key.

Of course I don't expect anyone to guarantee an exact size. What I would expect, if I were to purchase another teacup in the future, is a guaranteed SIZE RANGE. Why should the buyer bear all the burden of risk? If a breeder is confident enough to sell a yorkie as a teacup and charge a considerably higher price for it, then he or she should have no problem with that, and should have no problem with you requesting it. Sure, even in a breeding program that has a proven history of producing tinies over several generations, there is always the possibility of a larger yorkie. Certainly, it's not the breeders fault, but it's not the buyer's fault either, so it's not right that the buyer should pay for what they didn't receive. A guaranteed size range that offers a discount if the puppy grows larger than expected is fair to BOTH parties.

I considered buying another yorkie and spoke with several breeders that did agree to guarantee a size range. Most were more than willing to guarantee that their puppy would not be over 4 lbs. You just have to ask. Fairy's Storybook Yorkies was one. There were several others, but I can't remember them right off-hand. Of course, there were those that said I was ridiculous or that no breeder should be expected to guarantee size (again, I wasn't asking for a guaranteed size, just a guarantee size range). That's a huge red flag to me now. Steer clear of the ones that refuse or feign astonishment that you would even ask.

I can see that you are new to YT and WELCOME! if you browse the posts you will read that SEVERAL members were told (because of the size of the parents) that they yorkies would be a certain size and,they ended up being much larger....My adult (Sadie) will be 3 yrs old next month...her mother is 10 lbs and the father was between 5 and 6 lbs...Sadie ended up being 5 1/2 lbs..perfect size! I have heard of both parents being under 4 and 5 lbs prodcing 8 and 9 lbs furbabies so...you never know what you are going to get..I do hope you find what you are looking for.

Let me clarify...I don't mean rare in the official sense. I know chocolate yorkies are not AKC recognized, nor is the term teacup. (BTW, Biewers didn't used to be either.) I also know that any trait outside what is designated by the AKC standard is considered a flaw. By rare, I meant you don't see them as often as the standard colored yorkie or the standard sized yorkie. I did do my fair share of research, trust me. I started my search in Februrary, and literally spent a few hours everyday perusing websites and looking at all kinds of yorkies. I didn't make my purchase until April, so it definitely wasn't done without lots of forethought. Though...obviously not enough. :(

I still think if size is that important to you, you should only buy a full grown Yorkie. The breeders can guarantee a size all day long and that does not mean it will happen. They can say that because what are you going to do -- bring the dog back? Not too many people can do that after they have hopefully bonded with the babies.

I just want you to be cautious that\'s all..Alot of times people that are buying this breed are so misinformed and when told they are getting a "rare" chocolate or "teacup" don\'t mind spending the extra cash on them...Yorkies are NOT an inexpensive breed, as we all know, and I HATE hearing of people getting taken by these terms. And, it happens all the time..I am glad to hear you have done your research..I did as well before I bought my first but, I have learned more on YT than from any book that I have read..