Breeding after eclampsia - YorkieTalk.com Forums

YorkieRose · 11-12-2006, 05:21 PM

Since the thread was closed I want to say something since this is a very serious subject.....there is no one answer that fits all or works for all.
As to it being "life threathening"..well, simply breeding can be life threathening...most everything we do has some measure of risk connected with breeding.

Many breeders on YT, I would never advise to rebreed and others I would. It depends on how much the breeder knows, how diligent they are at watching a bitch, watching for the slightest signs of a problem. If they work..no way would I advise them to breed again. No longer then 4 hours between checks at night and two hours during the day. Temp needs to be taken twice daily.

It is a bigger risk to suppilement with calcium before whelping...and proper ratio of calcium to phosphorous it vital.
I have found eclampsia easy to spot...but scary never the less, because it can go from bad to worse in a short time and over in minutes with vet help...and I never put the pups back with the mom for nursing...that bitch is done nursing...there is never an accuse for a second bout with the same litter. If it happened once, it will most likely happen again..she is depleted and will take time to recoup to tip top condition.

When she has another litter..I tube feed the largest pups and allow the tinies to nurse...and I tube all during the night. The tubed pups will nurse a bit, they may act excited, jump on the nipple, but stop within a couple seconds realizing they are stuffed!! no fat ones constant draining mom.

I do not believe it is genetic... the two girls of mine that had it were from 4 generations of my bitches and none of their moms, grandmom etc had it...and none of their offspring have had it.
Best wishes

Diego · 11-12-2006, 05:36 PM

Thank you for this post .

ButterflyYorkie · 11-12-2006, 05:50 PM

Thanks!

I'm glad you mentioned not to put them back for nursing after a bout. I spoke to a lady once who would try to do this.

I do not think any of us can say if this is a genetic condition or not. What I have found over the years is that a female tends to inherit much of her mother's "whelping traits". I personally have found this to be true.

I appreciate you posting this info.

YorkieRose · 11-12-2006, 06:12 PM

You know Robbie, it makes common sense that problems with whelping can run in families..but I have not found this to be true with my girls..I can not recall a problem bitch having a problem daughter or granddaughter...I can name several free whelpers who gave me bitches who needed sections and the such...and I do not find litter numbers run from mother to daughter...I never hestitated to keep a pup from a problem whelper..or one who had small litters.

My Katherine had 6 puppies twice, 5 once and 4 twice...her two daughters Charlotte and Ruby never believed in quantity...and both had singletons once. Charlotte had litters of 2 and 3...Ruby managed 4 once..but the rest were 2 and 3...Katherine had two sections, but her girls were fine delivering.. even the big fat single litter pups...

I just bought a bitch from a long time show breeder friend..she said I would be happy to hear the dam of this girl always has free whelped 5 to 7 pups...maybe it will work for her...but I am not counting on anything that has happened in the past...LOL

ButterflyYorkie · 11-12-2006, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

You know Robbie, it makes common sense that problems with whelping can run in families..but I have not found this to be true with my girls..I can not recall a problem bitch having a problem daughter or granddaughter...I can name several free whelpers who gave me bitches who needed sections and the such...and I do not find litter numbers run from mother to daughter...I never hestitated to keep a pup from a problem whelper..or one who had small litters.

My Katherine had 6 puppies twice, 5 once and 4 twice...her two daughters Charlotte and Ruby never believed in quantity...and both had singletons once. Charlotte had litters of 2 and 3...Ruby managed 4 once..but the rest were 2 and 3...Katherine had two sections, but her girls were fine delivering.. even the big fat single litter pups...

I just bought a bitch from a long time show breeder friend..she said I would be happy to hear the dam of this girl always has free whelped 5 to 7 pups...maybe it will work for her...but I am not counting on anything that has happened in the past...LOL

Same here...I do not base anything off what has happened on the "good" side in the past because it can surely throw us a wammy when we least expect it. You remember I have the girl who had six by free whelp? She's scheduled for spaying...but she had large litters twice (6 once, and 6 again with one still born in that litter) I worry about my up and coming girls. No eclampsia in their dam's history, but if and when I do decide to breed them, I will take into consideration how they whelp before ever repeating. And of course I want nice pups...so if we don't get what we are after, there will be no need to consider a second breeding with them. Eclampsia is scary. I just want new breeders to be aware how fast it can creep up on them. I just wouldn't personally repeat a breeding with a girl that had it. Not after the pain of losing a girl I loved with my heart. (not to eclampsia) but after what that did to me, I'll take any measures to insure I don't put my girls in danger. The old heart has been broken enough here...That's all.

YorkieRose · 11-13-2006, 05:42 AM

AND you hit on the magic words.."new breeders"...I would not advise a new breeder to do many things I read here...much is learned with time and experince.
I have had breeder friends call me because their bitch was not acting right after a whelping...I would go to take a "look/see"...once I walked into the room and could smell infection (pyometra) and one time it only took a look at the bitches grimace to know she was going into eclampsia...I am not bragging about what I can do, I am simply stating a fact..it takes lots of hands on to prevent these problems and I respect the choices of a well seasoned breeder.
If a fairly new breeder starts out with sections, infections, eclampsia, etc..it is best to buy another bitch and spend lots of time with a mentor.

bettyeanne · 11-13-2006, 07:18 AM

Thanks for these posts! Pat, while I know nothing about breeding, nor would I be personally interested in it, I enjoy learning about the fascinating world of "seasoned" breeders!!

It also makes me appreciate Ava's experience more every day. I know that our precious Toto is not the result of just "throwing two Yorkies together" but the result of knowledge and careful planning on Ava's part. I also know that all the knowledge and planning in the world cannot guarantee a breeder gets what he/she plans. If that were true, Toto would have been big enough and instead of being loved by us, she would've probably been strutting around the showring! So, for this reason, I am thankful that sometimes genes can't guarantee outcome!

I am also thankful that knowledge and planning can pretty much guarantee the most important thing, their health! Toto has been so perfect in every way [the weight thing, well, that's our fault!

]

I suppose the thing I wanted to say is, I for one, appreciate breeders such as you and Robbie and all the others who put so much care and planning into your breeding programs. I know it really takes a lot of knowledge, planning and heart to do this. So .... thank you and God bless you for caring!!

annaschaben · 11-13-2006, 10:38 AM

I am just glad that there are sites like this so us "new breeders" can get advice from someone who has been through things a time or two. Us new breeders just want you to remember that at one time you were new breeders also.

I'm totally against just throwing a couple of dogs together, or just breeding a pet to get cute puppies. I started breeding bc I'm totally in love with the breed and only want to produce quality Yorkies for other people to enjoy.

Thanks guys for being such good help to us.

bettyeanne · 11-13-2006, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by annaschaben

I am just glad that there are sites like this so us "new breeders" can get advice from someone who has been through things a time or two. Us new breeders just want you to remember that at one time you were new breeders also.

I'm totally against just throwing a couple of dogs together, or just breeding a pet to get cute puppies. I started breeding bc I'm totally in love with the breed and only want to produce quality Yorkies for other people to enjoy.

Thanks guys for being such good help to us.

That's another great thing about YT and the breeder section. New breeders such as yourself who care so much for the breed that it's your "heart"! The great seasoned breeders here are eager to answer any and all questions for you and help in any way they can .... isn't it wonderful?

Good luck in your breeding program!

BabyFidgette · 11-13-2006, 01:11 PM

Both Pat and Robbie, very well said.

The way you posted your ideas I mean, b/c I have no idea what you are talking about!

LOLOL

I've heard of pre-eclamsia in humans, but what exactly is eclamsia in dogs? I keep hearing mention of calcium and nursing. Can either of you tell me exactly what it is?

Thanks!

YorkieRose · 11-13-2006, 03:32 PM

Eclampsia in a pregnant woman and a dog is quite different. In a human it is related to blood pressure prior to giving birth.
In a dog it is low blood calcuim levels, most often due to nursing...it can happen prior to whelping, but not the norm.

It most often occurs in a first time mother around two weeks after whelping and with a large litter that is draining the bitch of milk...which in turn causes her body to produce more and more milk, thus depleting her calcuim reserve.
Poor diet can be a cause, a bitch that does not eat well is prone also.
Supplimenting with calcuim before whelping is not wise..but feeding a calcuim rich diet is good. Many vets/researchers feel suppliments before whelping will actually cause eclampsia.

Untreated, the bitch will most often die. An IV of calcuim directly adminstering calcuim into the system will snap her out in a matter of minutes like it never happened...the bitch will want to go home and resume her mothering and will be very upset that she can not nurse them. I put a onezie on mine and allowed them to be with the pups..she can do everything but nurse.

Symtoms..are a high temp, panting, restlessness, unsteady gait, muscles spasms, stiffness in the muscles..then convulsions and death if not treated quickly.

annaschaben · 11-13-2006, 03:37 PM

eclampsia in dogs is different than humans. in people it is related to blood preasure while the woman is pregnant. In dogs it has to do with the amount of calcium in the dogs system after welping. When the bitch is nursing she puts a lot of the calcium in her body into her milk, if the puppies are taking too much of that calcium out of her system then her system starts to shut down bc muscle need the calcium to function. It can be very, very serious. It can lead to irrithmea and death. It can also be called hypercalcimic.

annaschaben · 11-13-2006, 03:38 PM

Okay Yorkirose and I must have been typing at the same time. Sorry about that.

YorkieRose · 11-13-2006, 03:41 PM

It can not be posted too often...LOL

BabyFidgette · 11-13-2006, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by annaschaben

Okay Yorkirose and I must have been typing at the same time. Sorry about that.

Thanks to both of you!!! I didn't know any of that.

All people who decide to breed their dogs, I hope, should/would be aware of eclampsia. Because if they don't recognize the signs, there's going to be a lot of broken hearts.

11-12-2006, 05:21 PM	#1
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	Breeding after eclampsia Since the thread was closed I want to say something since this is a very serious subject.....there is no one answer that fits all or works for all. As to it being "life threathening"..well, simply breeding can be life threathening...most everything we do has some measure of risk connected with breeding. Many breeders on YT, I would never advise to rebreed and others I would. It depends on how much the breeder knows, how diligent they are at watching a bitch, watching for the slightest signs of a problem. If they work..no way would I advise them to breed again. No longer then 4 hours between checks at night and two hours during the day. Temp needs to be taken twice daily. It is a bigger risk to suppilement with calcium before whelping...and proper ratio of calcium to phosphorous it vital. I have found eclampsia easy to spot...but scary never the less, because it can go from bad to worse in a short time and over in minutes with vet help...and I never put the pups back with the mom for nursing...that bitch is done nursing...there is never an accuse for a second bout with the same litter. If it happened once, it will most likely happen again..she is depleted and will take time to recoup to tip top condition. When she has another litter..I tube feed the largest pups and allow the tinies to nurse...and I tube all during the night. The tubed pups will nurse a bit, they may act excited, jump on the nipple, but stop within a couple seconds realizing they are stuffed!! no fat ones constant draining mom. I do not believe it is genetic... the two girls of mine that had it were from 4 generations of my bitches and none of their moms, grandmom etc had it...and none of their offspring have had it. Best wishes Last edited by YorkieRose; 11-12-2006 at 05:24 PM.

11-13-2006, 05:42 AM	#6
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	breeding AND you hit on the magic words.."new breeders"...I would not advise a new breeder to do many things I read here...much is learned with time and experince. I have had breeder friends call me because their bitch was not acting right after a whelping...I would go to take a "look/see"...once I walked into the room and could smell infection (pyometra) and one time it only took a look at the bitches grimace to know she was going into eclampsia...I am not bragging about what I can do, I am simply stating a fact..it takes lots of hands on to prevent these problems and I respect the choices of a well seasoned breeder. If a fairly new breeder starts out with sections, infections, eclampsia, etc..it is best to buy another bitch and spend lots of time with a mentor.

11-13-2006, 07:18 AM	#7
bettyeanne Donating YT 7000 Club Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Alabama, etc. Posts: 9,031	Thanks for these posts! Pat, while I know nothing about breeding, nor would I be personally interested in it, I enjoy learning about the fascinating world of "seasoned" breeders!! It also makes me appreciate Ava's experience more every day. I know that our precious Toto is not the result of just "throwing two Yorkies together" but the result of knowledge and careful planning on Ava's part. I also know that all the knowledge and planning in the world cannot guarantee a breeder gets what he/she plans. If that were true, Toto would have been big enough and instead of being loved by us, she would've probably been strutting around the showring! So, for this reason, I am thankful that sometimes genes can't guarantee outcome! I am also thankful that knowledge and planning can pretty much guarantee the most important thing, their health! Toto has been so perfect in every way [the weight thing, well, that's our fault! ] I suppose the thing I wanted to say is, I for one, appreciate breeders such as you and Robbie and all the others who put so much care and planning into your breeding programs. I know it really takes a lot of knowledge, planning and heart to do this. So .... thank you and God bless you for caring!! __________________ Toto's Mom - http://www.dogster.com/?206581 Yorkie Rescue Colorado - http://www.yorkierescuecolorado.com/ "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits." -- Albert Einstein

11-13-2006, 10:38 AM	#8
annaschaben YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Nebraska Posts: 532	I am just glad that there are sites like this so us "new breeders" can get advice from someone who has been through things a time or two. Us new breeders just want you to remember that at one time you were new breeders also. I'm totally against just throwing a couple of dogs together, or just breeding a pet to get cute puppies. I started breeding bc I'm totally in love with the breed and only want to produce quality Yorkies for other people to enjoy. Thanks guys for being such good help to us. __________________ Anna & Roxy

11-13-2006, 01:11 PM	#10
BabyFidgette Learn Yorkie CPR! Donating Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New Jersey Posts: 6,855	Both Pat and Robbie, very well said. The way you posted your ideas I mean, b/c I have no idea what you are talking about! LOLOL I've heard of pre-eclamsia in humans, but what exactly is eclamsia in dogs? I keep hearing mention of calcium and nursing. Can either of you tell me exactly what it is? Thanks! __________________ Nicole & Baby "The more men I meet, the more I love my Yorkie!"

11-12-2006, 05:36 PM	#2
Diego Donating YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 3,617	Thank you for this post .

11-12-2006, 05:50 PM	#3
ButterflyYorkie YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: NC Posts: 743	Thanks! I'm glad you mentioned not to put them back for nursing after a bout. I spoke to a lady once who would try to do this. I do not think any of us can say if this is a genetic condition or not. What I have found over the years is that a female tends to inherit much of her mother's "whelping traits". I personally have found this to be true. I appreciate you posting this info.

11-12-2006, 06:12 PM	#4
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	You know Robbie, it makes common sense that problems with whelping can run in families..but I have not found this to be true with my girls..I can not recall a problem bitch having a problem daughter or granddaughter...I can name several free whelpers who gave me bitches who needed sections and the such...and I do not find litter numbers run from mother to daughter...I never hestitated to keep a pup from a problem whelper..or one who had small litters. My Katherine had 6 puppies twice, 5 once and 4 twice...her two daughters Charlotte and Ruby never believed in quantity...and both had singletons once. Charlotte had litters of 2 and 3...Ruby managed 4 once..but the rest were 2 and 3...Katherine had two sections, but her girls were fine delivering.. even the big fat single litter pups... I just bought a bitch from a long time show breeder friend..she said I would be happy to hear the dam of this girl always has free whelped 5 to 7 pups...maybe it will work for her...but I am not counting on anything that has happened in the past...LOL

11-13-2006, 03:32 PM	#11
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	eclampsia Eclampsia in a pregnant woman and a dog is quite different. In a human it is related to blood pressure prior to giving birth. In a dog it is low blood calcuim levels, most often due to nursing...it can happen prior to whelping, but not the norm. It most often occurs in a first time mother around two weeks after whelping and with a large litter that is draining the bitch of milk...which in turn causes her body to produce more and more milk, thus depleting her calcuim reserve. Poor diet can be a cause, a bitch that does not eat well is prone also. Supplimenting with calcuim before whelping is not wise..but feeding a calcuim rich diet is good. Many vets/researchers feel suppliments before whelping will actually cause eclampsia. Untreated, the bitch will most often die. An IV of calcuim directly adminstering calcuim into the system will snap her out in a matter of minutes like it never happened...the bitch will want to go home and resume her mothering and will be very upset that she can not nurse them. I put a onezie on mine and allowed them to be with the pups..she can do everything but nurse. Symtoms..are a high temp, panting, restlessness, unsteady gait, muscles spasms, stiffness in the muscles..then convulsions and death if not treated quickly.

11-13-2006, 03:37 PM	#12
annaschaben YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Nebraska Posts: 532	eclampsia in dogs is different than humans. in people it is related to blood preasure while the woman is pregnant. In dogs it has to do with the amount of calcium in the dogs system after welping. When the bitch is nursing she puts a lot of the calcium in her body into her milk, if the puppies are taking too much of that calcium out of her system then her system starts to shut down bc muscle need the calcium to function. It can be very, very serious. It can lead to irrithmea and death. It can also be called hypercalcimic. __________________ Anna & Roxy

11-13-2006, 03:38 PM	#13
annaschaben YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Nebraska Posts: 532	Okay Yorkirose and I must have been typing at the same time. Sorry about that. __________________ Anna & Roxy

11-13-2006, 03:41 PM	#14
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	Lol It can not be posted too often...LOL