Roached back?
 

Hi everyone,

I bought Max from a breeder with the intentions of possibly breeding him. He appears to have a "roached back" and it's more noticeable when he's eating and sometimes simply standing in place. From reading previous posts on this characteristic, I am learning that this is a hereditary trait and can pass from one generation to the next or several generations. Before actually purchasing Max, I visited him and the breeder, saw both parents and played with him for a bit. It was noticeable then and when I asked the breeder about it she said that was just how some puppies are and that he was going through a growth spurt. And that he would grow out of it. I shrugged it off because surely the breeder was so knowledgeable and she didn't seem fazed by his seemingly curved spine either. It almost looks like he's on his tippy toes. His legs appear "tall" for he doesn't have the cobby short-legged look. He reminds me of a cat that gets up and stretches after laying down. I wish I had a picture to post but I need to downsize it before YT will download it. I'll try and work on getting a pic posted.

I understand that if indeed he does have a roached back that it will not affect his overall health or quality of life but I'm questioning if I should even breed him now. I've had him for five weeks and it hasn't gotten better. He's only 16 weeks old so perhaps he WILL grow out of this condition? I guess my questions are these:

Is 16 weeks too soon to determine a true roachback?

When or if I DO determine that I should not breed him, should I contact the breeder and ask for some sort of monetary compensation for not being able to breed him? I paid a higher price for him because she knew I wanted to breed.

Are breeders supposed to make a buyer aware of ALL defects, medical and cosmetic?

I take some responsibility in not knowing what to look for but I guess I trusted her to educate me or at least tell me that Max was not for me. Being a novice, I thought I was getting a top quality pup and was very excited at becoming a breeder and perhaps I focused too much on pedigrees and the "german biewer hype". (Max's dad is a champion and there are other champion bloodlines for both dam and sire). I just want to begin my breeding debut on the right foot.

Ok folks...don't yell at me TOO much. Just looking for some guidance. Thanks for reading. :)

I know as a "buyer" I would certainly hope a breeder would tell me all the "cosmetic and medical defects" my future puppy would have.

I do not know enough about roach back to answer your questions at all. But seems to me IF it can be passed on....I would certainly not breed that pup. It would be time to neuter, and keep him as a pet. I would definitely not breed any dog who has a defect that could be passed on to the puppies, peroid.

Not trying to sound harsh here, thats just my opinion, only.

I hope you get the answers to the rest of your questions about roach back.

I think that if he has a roached back now he will probably still have it when he gets older. Perhaps if you posted a picture of him, we could see if he has a roach back. You really shoulden't buy a male or female for breeding until they are atleast 6 months old, this will give you a good idea of how they are turning out. If you get them before then, you are taking a chance on them being able to be bred.

Yes the breeder should always make the buyer aware of any and all health problems and/or defects. But there are alot of breeders out there that will either lie or not tell you.

My Scampers can look like he has a roach back at times. Usually only when I try to get him to stand for me. He hates it and will hunch his back because he really wants to lay down. But when he is alert or in natural posture, his topline is very good. I don't know what he has against standing for me but he hates it and tries to either sit or lay down everytime I try. I am still working on getting him to stand for me, but it is not an easy process, he is sooo stubborn and has a If I don't want to do it, I am not going to attitude.:rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure if he has the roached back, then it does not go away.

He will be roached his entire life. Also with a roached back is a down tail. I would not breed this trait. As far as monetary reimbursement, what does your contract state? Most contracts do not cover cosmetic reasons. Would she be willing to take him back?

Roached backs do not interfere with quality of life, etc. It's just not very pretty to look at. With that said, you should breed strictly to the standard. If you choose to use him anyway, you'll be passing that trait on to the pups. Please reconsider.

Bnot, you don't sound harsh at all. I feel the same way in that the breeder should have told me of this genetic problem. Especially when I specifically asked about it.

The problem with waiting that long is that the puppies are usually spoken for, sometimes even before they're born. I have no problem with being put on a waiting list but even then, it could take many months I'm told. Guess I just have to be patient huh? :) I want to give her the benefit of the doubt that maybe she didn't know about this problem but she says she's been breeding for over ten years. I will know soon enough when I contact her.

Yes, the upper part of his tail is down most of the time but curves up at the end when he's wagging it. The contract does not accommodate for cosmetic reasons but if I can't breed him then hopefully at least we can agree to have me pay for him as a pet quality dog. I know it's kind of hard giving money BACK after the fact so this may be a slight loss for me but you live and you learn right? I wish I could have a breeder in the area to see him personally before I make a decision to neuter him:confused: I do not want to breed him with this defect. Like I said before, I want to do it right coming out the gate.

Thanks everyone.

I just want to commend you on starting out right. Years ago when I started breeding, the same thing happened to me. I paid alot of money for a breedable female that had a roach. she was beautiful in other respects, but I didn't know any better at the time. I found after trying several different studs with a good topline, that a roach is almost impossible to get rid of. It seems to be a very dominant gene. Not to mention (at least IMHO) one of the worst. I gave it up, and am now set on a new course. This forum is a great place to learn and try to keep on track. I would suggest if your breeder won't replace him, that you neuter him and sell him. Never be afraid to start over. Good luck, and try to post pics for us, ok? :)

pup
 

When you talked with the breeder about buying a pup, did they know he was for breeding? What guarantee did they give you as to his potential? Roach backs rarely improve..rarely does a good top line go bad..it is either there or isn't.
I HAVE seen pups who were slightly down at the shoulders improve to a correct top line.
A breeder should go over the puppy point by point with you if it is being bought for breeding..and if it is being bought for a pet, It is a nice gesture...all health and genetic pro's and con's need to be pointed out.
Good Luck

can you show us some pics?

Oh yes! She certainly knew, that's why she charged me a higher price for him. On the day that I was due to pick him up, she became busy with some personal things so she left her 'helper' at the home to collect my money and deliver the puppy. Of course I had tons of questions but what could I do.

It would make sense to have pics when I'm asking about a physical defect question huh? :) Unfortunately, my hubby is usually 2-3 days behind when it comes to special requests. He's the resizing pictures expert lol. SO I think I should have pictures any day now:p Sorry it's taking so long.

http://support.vodahost.com/index.ph...wnloaditemid=2

here is a great pic resizer - may this will help - its a free download and easy to use...

hope this helps clear your honey do list:)

Does anyone have a picture of a roach back dog? One of my yorkies tail is down a lot of the times. I don't know if he is just being submissive or if he is a roach back. He does have it up sometimes. Can you tell from these pictures if he is a roach back?

Very respectable!!
 

You are a very respectable person to put it out on the line like you have. A lot of breeders would just try it anyway, because they have a lot of money in a dog. I breed too, and to a lot of people, it would be too tempting to not use him for breeding but you are doing the right thing. I dont believe it will go away. My LittleBit is the same way. It looks like her back legs (which I call legs) are longer/taller than her front legs(which I call arms) . My husband laughs at me becuase I use that termanolgy, comparing them to humans with fingers and toes and fingernails and toenails. Anyway, my girl gets along great, but even if she was big enough (she is only 2.5lbs full grown) I wouldnt breed her because of the roachback.
Good luck on getting any money back, my guess is the breeder knew and didnt want to lose a sale. As bad as that may seem, a lot of times its true. Hopefully I am wrong and she will give you the difference between what she charges for pet quality to breeding quality. Keep us informed.
Jill

tail set
 

He is not roach backed...his tail set is low..very different..a roached back looks like a cat when they hunch over...and there is no such thing as .."sometimes it is level and sometimes it is roached...a well structured, level top line does not change..a roach backed dog can straighten itself out at times or be straigthen to look okay on the table, but the minute they walk for the judge the true structure is seen...it is a structure fautl, not just an nonlevel spine.

ask your vet
 

If you arent sure--ask your vet. They will know for sure and then you will have peace of mind in whatever you do.;)

Nope not going to yell at you, LOL
BUt if you truly want a very nice puppy that you want to bring into a breeding program, you really can't buy anything much under 9 months of age as they change so much in that time. Toplines can go off and come back but I wouldn't be paying for a pup that has a topline off that I want to use in my breeding program hoping it will correct. That is up to the breeder to do, hang onto it and 'run it on' meaning wait and see what you have. Bites in an older pup can even go off.
Colour in Yorkies is anotehr big issue as well as size. Size is not more determinable until over 6 months, colour can go light even at a year.
Certainly under six months, except in extreme small or big, the only thing you know for sure is that it is a Yorkie, providing you bought from someone reputable and not someone who actually sold you a cross, and whether it is male or female, little else.

Pics
 

I hope I posted these pics right. If so, what do you guys think?

more pics
 

More pics. The last two are "just because he's so cute pics" :)

?
 

It is too hard to tell in a coat that is curly...the hair had to be parted and laying down straight to see to get a correct view..but he is a doll.

"Soap" your pup down and comb to get a good view of it's topline. :)

Oh pooh!! I didn't realize that. Ok, I will get him wet and try and take new pics.

Thanks!

Max
 

How old is Max?

He is 16 weeks,1 day old.

size
 

I think he is running large for 16 weeks...he still has alot of growing to do..I am not much into weight. I look at frame first..and his is large for a potential stud...but his color lovely and he looks like a great pet.

size
 

I was thinking that too. He weighed 5 lbs 2 oz :eek: at the vet last week and from the calculations that I have been reading, he looks to be at least 7 lbs and over. Looks like I didn't do a very good job in choosing my first stud:confused: . Believe me, I'm learning plenty now! Can I sell him...I mean am I able to...do I really want to?:( Perhaps I can find someone local to sell to. It would be nice to keep him near.

pics while wet
 

Ok, I took some pics of him while giving him a bath. I must say, He was VERY well behaved. Anyway, I hope some experienced eyes here can tell if he has a roached back by these pic because to me. sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn't. That's why I took quite a few.

Thanks for looking:)

Two more pics.

How much did this cutie weigh at 12 weeks. I'm no expert but was told that if you double the 12 week weight you'll get close to the adult weight. They sometimes add a pound for a male (fill out weight) ;) ;) A low tail set isn't desirable either but can be bred out easier than a bad bite or a bad topline. Connor had a great top line at 18 weeks, went high at the crop at 5 monthes and is now straightening out at 7 monthes.

Ask Your Vet
 

I still say to ask your vet. He is the expert and then you will know 100%. Its just so hard to tell with pics and you get a lot of different opinions. Your vet is probably more qualified and can see him a lot better than we can.

No, he does not appear to be roached to me. With a roached back, their hind legs will appear to be longer than their front and there is a definite hump in the back.